Let's make it tighter

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:06 pm

When preparing another scanned issue of Slalom! magazine I came across this article that I wrote years back.

Although I'm regarded as a tight slalom specialist I really enjoy the wider type of slalom too. I can do tight well, so naturally I still like it, but I'm not sure I want to go any tighter.

With the right equipment we could go tighter, but the current equipment for sale is suited for a slightly wider courses.

Slalom! no 4 - Feb 1988, page 10

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:56 pm

Both Roe and Pocket Pistols make excellent tight slalom boards.
No doubt there are some others. Also the Radikal trucks are excellent for TS.

Even when tight was more popular the equipment was rare, often an upturned GandS bowlrider. I feel we have a great spread of gear these days. And 4ft was never THAT popular. Most UK riders preferred 5-6ft.

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 11:42 pm

Jani,

I read your article and would only DISAGREE with one point. Under "Trucks" you advised, "Loosen up your trucks and use the softest bushings you can find."

I used to believe that. I could wiggle like a madman and run a course clean. THEN, 15 years later I met Gilmour. His technique was good, and his speed phenomenal. I couldn't figure out what he was doing so much differently than me. Then I rode his board and discovered the difference: his boards are set up with short wheelbases and hard wheels, but he also has his trucks adjusted to a "medium" or even a "hard" turn quality. I realizes that if you set up your board really "soft" as you suggested in 1988, you can make the cones, but your speed SUCKS. By loosening up the board you end up with little response, an ineffective pump and your acceleration just goes down the drain. Without a tighter truck, it becomes almost impossible for a slalom skater to gain any speed.

What's the answer? I learned this also in the past year: STRENGTH. If you set up the board "hard," then the skater has to be "harder" to get it to turn. Lots of leg and upper body strength results in a stronger pump, a quicker turn and faster speeds. So in reading your article, I would say, "don't loosen up the board, TIGHTEN UP as a rider. Push harder, turn harder and make the cones with a lot of muscle."

My tight technique is good and I'm getting faster, but I'm still no where near as fast as Gilmour, Vlad and yourself. That's only going to come with a lot more work, conditioning and added muscle.

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 11:45 pm

Oh, one other thing,

Then you got the anamoly like Luca. What's his secret? Without actually watching him ride, I would say rather simplistically is he combines incredible strength WITHT loose trucks and a loose board. So he overcomes the loss of pump in the board by achieving tremendous velocity with his leg strength. The result is a guy who looks like a sewing machine when he skates AND makes the tight cones consistently.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:08 am

Wesley, I think Luca is buying your theory because his trucks are not that loose as you think. There are not many slalomers (if any) that after testing his board would go... "Oh, this is a really nice board". Mostly they go... "Shit, how do you do to pump this board?". Actually they are thinking "What a load of crap, that's the worst board I've ridden since 1978". But since it's Luca's board and you know he's so fast you can't say that of course. You need a lot of thrust/muscle and technique to make it work. Actually I don't think he thinks it's a nice board either in that sence. Then you wouldn't go for a plank in the first place. But he doesn't care about comfort. He wants speed and quick response. That's what you get with hard board, hard wheels and hard bushings. It's only that your body strength and physical condition will set the limit of what you can handle. Needless to say my board is very soft compared to his.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:24 am

Luca's board is as "dead" as his rear truck. All turning happens in the front.

Very powerfull pumper. Gotta MAKE it work.

Sortta like PlankkR.

Tigher is better.

Vlad.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:30 am

I think I agree with Jani though that you have to loosen up your trucks. When Jani says tighter courses at that time when courses already were very tight means VERY tight. The technique for that is pure wiggling. I have never seen anyone doing that on tight trucks. Sure you don't get as much speed but then again you can't have much speed in such courses anyway. The only speed you see in such a course is in your ankles.

Instead what I don't agree with is "Tighter course are ... more enjoyable for the skater". I can't imaging that anyone enjoys wiggling. Oh no! Long heavy surf pumps, that's where the joy is.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:40 am

Oops! Just realized that this is the "tight slalom" forum. So... what I really meant, of course, is that tight is good, wiggle is better and loose trucks are the best. :roll:

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Thu Aug 21, 2003 12:46 pm

Hans- I've also ridden Luca's board and it does bring me back to 1978. I think that Luca limits his turns and relies on his wheels to carry the speed. I certainly can't generate much speed with it.

In regards to loose trucks. If you ride your trucks loose you may find you can accelerate quicker at the top where time is mounting quickest. Your top end speed is not as fast though. To make your board turn you can generate a lot of downforce with tight trucks- but if there is some offset and the surface is bad- that simply won't work- you'll slide out.

So I find that you may match your trucks adjustment somewhat to the surface.

Wesley I think is refering to the Yellow Turner that Terence set up. That board did require a lot of input but was very grippy as well. My older Fullnose was ridiculously loose- mostly because the full tracks did not turn until they were very tilted- and also the trucks were pretty stable even when loose enableing me to run GS and TS gates in the same course. I think that there is a sweet spot in adjustment that varies from deck to deck- once you find it, you don't change it much for the course.

If you find yourself wiggling through cones- then likely your trucks are too tight- or more likely you are on a wheelbase that is too long for the cone spcing- you also could be using trucks that are too wide.

I of course would like to see more technical- faster tighter courses. But a good surface is required and it takes good course setting. I prefer tight slalom on steeper hills where you must continue to pump faster to maintain traction- all while the hill is pushing you to your limit.

I'm not a real proponent of flatland slalom if there is a hill available. The hill adds the challenge.

Hans started to classify the courses in another thread. I'd like to see that thread revisited.

I tried to assign a way to descibe a course by a number.

I think the first number was the difficulty level. The second number was the average spacing and the third number was the amount of offset in cone widths. It isn't a great system- but maybe a start towards a way to describe the courses. GS courses don't require this type of classification as much since the body english from cone to cone is about the same.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 1:26 am

John, I've always thought that flat is the challenge. Then we're talking pure pumping. Using hills is cheating.

Dan Mitchell · Post by **Dan Mitchell** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:34 am

On 2003-08-21 19:26, Hans Koraeus wrote:
John, I've always thought that flat is the challenge. Then we're talking pure pumping. Using hills is cheating.

Cheating, maybe.
More exciting and fun-definitely

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:36 am

"If I'm not cheating, I'm not having fun."

Bad H

[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-08-21 22:37 ]

Patio Mendino · Post by **Patio Mendino** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:42 pm

It ain't cheating unless you get caught.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:18 pm

I for one would like to see slalom move back this direction of tighter more technical course and away from longboard slalom.

If you can't make the course, tough shit, practice more.

tight + tech on flat ground is the ultimate...everything has to be 100% to be fast, you need to be dialed in. This is the essence of slalom, pumping and turning. Adding hills to the equation adds more margin for error and/or another set of skills required which is a whole different equation. Still nice to ride but seperate from flatground slalom. Even the discipline of straight cone/cyberslalom is another event. Each one of those three requires a different focus and skillset.

....these big courses that require 76mm wheels and 36" longboards are just getting lame but it is a seperate skillset that has it's good points.

--09 02 03--
I am adding to this post since I got a phone call from a friend saying that Eric Groof is mis-quoting me on ncdsa.com and twisting my words yet again. Since I no longer go or will ever post to that site again I won't see how my words are twisted or defend myself there. I'll do it here and add to this post for all those coming from ncdsa.com to see what Mr. Groff is talking about....

I have heard that I called FCR "lame" in this post? Where? I think some people are too sensitive about this. I called slalom courses that require longboards "lame" and if you want to infere that is FCR fine, I didn't intend it as such. I have no problem with courses that require 76mm wheels and a 36" longboard, they can be fun, but be honest in calling it what it is "longboard slalom". It has, llke I said above, it has it's merits and bad points, as does a tight TS courses, a flat course or a cyberslalom courses. Sure I prefer one over the other but that doesn't mean squat.

Specifically to this thread...it is about making courses tighter. i voiced my opinion. What do I get? Shit on....gee...I wonder why I am moving away from participating in message boards lately. All these little games are very unimportant to me and if it causes gossip I don't want to be apart of it. I'll go out and train and race and enjoy the time I spend n my slalom boards...what happens - happens...but if I do voice an opinion on a message board that Mr. Groff (who has a bug up his ass about me anyway, which frankly I could give a shits less about, I gave up caring about Eric's rants or his little games weeks ago..if it makes him happy to be the way he is more power to him) or anyone else finds offense in or disagrees with...tough shit..if you don't like my opinion don't read my posts. My views on slalom are definately a minority view, I realize that...just don't mis-quote me or twist my words to favor your biased opinion.

if you have a problem with me e-mail me....all my contact info is in my profile here....

Andy Bittner · Post by **Andy Bittner** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:41 am

Aaahhh..., but Hans, the name of the sport is SLALOM (look at the top of the page), not PUMPING. "Slalom" is a word of Norwegian origin that literally means "SLOPING path". So, not only is slalom on a hill NOT cheating, it could rightly be said that if it's NOT on a hill, it's NOT slalom.

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:58 am

Andy,long time no post. You came back with a good one. When I look for slalom spots I look for Hills. Flat is OK for a drill but its kind of masochistic .Its just not fun, its like algebra.
Hills however are at the very core of our inner child fun o meter. Sliding down hills on a sled. Rolling down hills in a trash barrel.Riding your bike down the steepest hill in the neighborhood. And Finally, shooting your first hill on a skateboard.
This is only my opinion. I'd rather race tight on a hill. and hell yes you can pump a hill and a ts course on a hill.TK

[ This Message was edited by: Terence Kirby on 2003-08-29 21:08 ]

Slappy Maxwell · Post by **Slappy Maxwell** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:48 am

On 2003-08-29 20:41, Andy Bittner wrote:
Aaahhh..., but Hans, the name of the sport is SLALOM (look at the top of the page), not PUMPING. "Slalom" is a word of Norwegian origin that literally means "SLOPING path". So, not only is slalom on a hill NOT cheating, it could rightly be said that if it's NOT on a hill, it's NOT slalom.

Very true. But many words can change meaning when they enter the vernacular of different groups.

If fact...
Vernacular is built upon the Latin vernaculus, meaning native or domestic, which comes from verna, a slave born at home.

I learned that from the Professor on Gilligan's Island.

Gareth Roe · Post by **Gareth Roe** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 7:44 am

For all of you tight slalom skaters, check out the new RoeRacing S-Camber decks!
Just what the doctor ordered!
Later-
G-

Jim Slater · Post by **Jim Slater** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:53 pm

Too right Gareth
I will be demanding one off Michael Stide
and bugging the S**t out of him till he relaets.
Top board there....

Jim Slater · Post by **Jim Slater** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:55 pm

Till he "relents" I meant
PS: please make sure you bug him from your end too

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:17 pm

Jim, Gareth already has my order for those S cambers and other decks too.

It is great to see someone produce not only high end foam core decks but also laminates of a consisently high quality and producing shapes that work a treat too.

Roe has a winner on its hands.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:32 am

First of all my comment on cheating when pumping downhill was of course only to tease JG.

But it did lead us into a very interesting topic. The definition of skateboard slalom. Another subject that would fit the missing "Rules and regulations" section by the way. I checked my Swedish dictionary and there slalom means a slope with poles. But what wasn't mentioned above was that it refers to skiing. Slalom is skiing. Not skateboarding or even snowboarding. And even if we disregard that it means that we should all follow those Japanese guys setting up slalom courses using poles. I already sense Stride heading for the Reply button.

What I mean is that (ski) slalom has nothing to do with skateboard slalom. Some of you may remember competitions in the not always so good old times when they set courses with double cones. Just like they did in (ski) slalom. The course in front of you looked like a bomb hade scattered the cones all around. Horrible. And all because someone had done the fatal mistake in believing that (ski) slalom was the same as skateboard slalom.

I think nowadays those connections don't exist anymore. And slalom skateboarding on flat or downhill or even uphill still would fit into MY definition of it. But it's true that we don't have a dictionnary version explaining it. I'll leave that to you English speaking persons.

A few words on pumping. It's true that I wouldn't like to call what we are doing for PUMPING instead of slalom (from now on slalom is always referring to skateboard slalom

). For me there is no connection between the two. Slalom is a discipline description. Pumping is a technique. You can slalom without pumping. And you can pump without doing slalom.

But slalom without pumping, is that the slalom we are aiming for? For me that is the beginner slalom. And the more you learn how to pump the course the better you get in my eyes.

That's why I like flat courses in a way. Because it shows beginners what it is all about. Howcome Mr Flat Newbie doesn't have speed to make it to the end of the course while Mr Hotshot is coming out of the course much faster than he goes into it. Mr "Flat" Newbie will quickly understand that there is more to slalom than turning.

For Mr Hill Newbie that is not so obvious. He is doing fine just turning so why change anything.

Don't misunderstand me now. I like doing slalom on downhill courses. But what I don't like is when you can't pump them. And downhill and tight slalom together tends to result in turning/wiggle slalom more than pumping slalom. Unless you are extremly good of course. I don't say that one is more right than the other. I just say I prefer when I can pump them. And when I start to wiggle it's telling me this hill is too steep for the slalom I want to do. Maybe it only shows that I'm not good enough to take on certain hills. So be it. It doesn't make me cry at nights. Because I know I'm not the only one.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:33 am

Funny little tight story from Paris.

The Audience in Paris found often that the AM tight slalomers where faster than the PRO's. What they didn't know was that the PRO's had a tighter cone distance (2,0m) compared to the AM's (2,5m). So let the PRO's have tighter courses if they want to. It will only make us AM's look better.

Andy Bittner · Post by **Andy Bittner** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:33 pm

Hans... my bad. I hate these little symbols, put I probably should've put one of these

on my post. There's no question that the meaning of "slalom" has evolved well beyond the root meaning. Slalom waterskiing has existed for years, and that's about as flat as standing water can get.

However, the statement "What I mean is that (ski) slalom has nothing to do with skateboard slalom." couldn't be further from the truth. In my own personal experience, the first skateboard that came into my family home did so when I was about four years old (1967). It was a gift from my father's skiing buddies to my father, as a snowless skiing alternative, and one of the earliest things my Dad and older brother did with it, once they were proficient in basic riding, was to begin setting slalom courses. In my family, skateboarding was originally directly related to skiing, which is why the first thing I ever learned to do on a skateboard (1970) was race on slalom courses. Ski slalom in the winter and skateboard slalom in the summer.

Furthermore, you should know that most of the 1970s-era Skateboarder interviews with the pioneers of slalom skateboarding make direct reference to the influence of skiing slalom. I actually investigated this several years ago, for a discussion on Ncdsa.com, and found that there were references to skiing's influence on slalom skateboarding in interviews with Hester, Piercy, Skoldberg, Ransom/Evans and maybe some others (Hutson?). In fact, if I recall correctly, it was Ransom or Evans who said they were actually watching a ski race on television and decided to take it outside and give it a rip on skateboards.

Having said all of that, I really do agree that slalom is a discipline, while pumping is a skill. One needn't be doing one in order to be doing the other. I hope slalom keeps using hills AND I hope slalom always retains the need for pumping as an important, basic racing skill. I hope skateboarding evolves to include distance-type pumping races that aren't slalom-like. I like it all, but through roughly 20 years of slalom-type skateboarding on my own, I found two things caused me to become bored: cones in a neat, straight, even line and cones on flat. I find that these two situations can be extremely beneficial for training, but if all slalom skateboard racing became flat and straight, it wouldn't interest me any more than waterski slalom racing does, and waterskiing slalom doesn't interest me in the least.

I trained dead-straight, flat courses for years. I ran 'em at 4 ft., 4.5 ft., and rarely over 5, and I believe the experience was valuable to my riding and my health. My current racing and my health would probably be well-served if I were to resume such training, but that doesn't mean that I hope slalom skateboard racing goes that way.

My personal belief is that the greatest potential for slalom skateboarding's longevity lies in not allowing the definition of "slalom skateboarding" to become too narrow in any particular direction. This is our sport. We're going to decide what it is and what it isn't. If we define our sport into a narrow, little pigeon-hole, we're going to kill it... again.

As for "TS" on a hill... anyone who ran the tight course I set for The 3rd Gathering, on Friday of that weekend, knows what I think tight, hill slalom should be. If I recall correctly, there were a significant number of good slalomers who were calling it too tight, too hard, and who just couldn't make it. I could run that course clean. I don't understand how others, who I regard as being better slalomers than I, couldn't manage it. That course was what I consider to be an expert-level, tight slalom course.

[ This Message was edited by: Andy Bittner on 2003-08-31 09:36 ]

Troy Smart · Post by **Troy Smart** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:10 pm

I was an avid skiier before picking up slalom skateboarding and had raced a lot. The first time I skated cones I was amazed at how similar it was to skiing. In particular, bump skiing, but also slalom.
Because it is reminiscient of skiing is in large part why I do it.

[ This Message was edited by: Troy Smart on 2003-08-31 10:12 ]

Jim Slater · Post by **Jim Slater** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:23 pm

Thanks michael.
Our UK main man comes up trumps again.
and I was looking forward to bugging you too!

The best distributor always stays a step ahead of his market.

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:32 pm

Thanks Jim.
You should have added "and 3 cones"

Though for how long I dont know. The trouble with selling such great kit is you guys will start beating me again like the old days.

I will sabotage all decks henceforth with a double layer of lead disguised as carbon.

Today was fun wasnt it?

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:42 am

Andy, and others.

Nice post by the way Andy but I still don't agree that skateboarding and skiing is the same. As I see it they are in two different branches, surf and ski. On the surf branch we have surfboarding, skateboarding, snowboarding, sandboarding, skimboarding and even waterskiing when using only one ski to name a few. On the ski branch you have skiing, rollerskating and rollerblades, waterskiing (with two skies) and the likes. Come to think of it maybe it's the stance that make the difference. Mono skiing for example is skiing whilst snowbarding is surfing. And that is so depending on stance. Even if they used the same board the stance and the different technique would separate them. Aha, and that's maybe why I don't like parallell stance in slalom skating. Because then it becomes skiing.

Maybe there are many skaters thinking "big deal". I know there are many who likes the two branches and if you do maybe you don't see the difference. But it's there weather you see it or not.

Then of course I exagerate when I say that they have nothing to do with each other. Of course there are things that resambles. But then again skate slalom can resamble car driving as well. Who hasn't been doing slalom with his car?

A little ski/surfing branch story
In Paris this year the competition was organizing the two branches together. Skateboard slalom and rollerblade slalom. Not only did I get the feeling that it's two different kind of people/worlds doing these disciplines, even though JG tried his best to build bridges by doing some Travolta dancing on a pair of rollerblades, it also looks compleatly different. Not to talk about their one foot slalom but even when they where running our slalom course it was... something else.

As I have said before I don't like mixing these branches but I'm afraid it will happen again next year. Because in France rollerskating belongs to the French surfing association as do skateboarding.

Especially sad it will be if it will be considered as the World skateboard slalom championships. I don't see any place or reason having rollerblades connected with that. As I think the rollerbladers would think too if it was the other way around.

Andy Bittner · Post by **Andy Bittner** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 4:11 am

Hans, I think that we probably enjoy the same things, and could agree on most. Clearly skateboarding originally seems to stem from surfing, and I have no evidence to the contrary. I simply believe, based on the quotes of many of the slalom racers who were my heroes back in the days of my youth, that slalom came into skateboarding as an influence from ski racing. I'm not saying that skateboarding originated from a skiing influence, just the slalom skateboard racing discipline.

What I don't understand is why you said, "Aha, and that's maybe why I don't like parallell stance in slalom skating. Because then it becomes skiing." Why are you so committed to resisting the existence of a ski influence? Is skiing bad and surfing good? I only know this... in the small world of my youth, my family, there was absolutely nobody who ever surfed before skateboarding came along, but most of us had skied. Furthermore, of the four of my family members who either did or do skate slalom, only one of us has ever surfed, me, and that was more than eight years after I skated through my first slalom course.

[ This Message was edited by: Andy Bittner on 2003-08-31 22:12 ]

Jim Slater · Post by **Jim Slater** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:32 pm

Skateboard Slalom VS Ski Slalom
I used to Ski in the winter months to keep in shape for Skateboarding in the summer.
The balance points are different, "feel those knees burning" and when I should have been "planting the pole" to turn I was raising! (On a left turn I was lifting my left arm - as in Skeateboarfing- instead of planting. I ended up fitshing the poles and skating the snow.
In England in the 70's there were two schools, Gowl riding was surf orientated and Slalom was ski orientated.
That was not necessarily true, but it was the mindset.
I believe that Skateboard Slalom is unique but it has roots elseware.
Tarmac and concrete is not snow and Ice and snow and vice-a-versa.
I can skate true parralell A-la Bob Piercy. but it is a crowd pleaser only.
The two cannot be compared but they do have similarities.
Snowboarding?....... now that's another story.
Keep it up guys, this site and all who post on it ROCK, big time

JIM SLATER

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:53 pm

Please scroll up to my last post for all of you who want to read my original words on making courses tighter. I have gotten a few e-mails and phone calls recently saying that my words are all being twisted on ncdsa.com yet again by the resident bigot.....

Adam Trahan · Post by **Adam Trahan** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:11 pm

Chris,

I read your post, there is nothing wrong with it.

Don't worry what other people or web sites think or write about you. Do what you do, have fun and don't drag that shit over here.

*grin*

Tighter more technical courses demand faster decisions. I see a Tight Slalom course as a MUCH FASTER course regarding decisions than ANY Giant Slalom course.

Both are cool.

Do what you do, you do it well and I am happy to be able to give you a choice in where you spend your time online, YOUR words are welcome here.

adam

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:26 pm

Adam,
I try not to drag anything over to this site but somehow it follows me. I just have a problem with people twisting my statements for their own purpose and wanted to make sure the record is straight here for those that are come here looking for it.

Otherwise I could care less what people I have no respect for think of me.

as for TS....it is what I enjoy. Part of what excited me about slalom in the first place is the dscipline needed to be a top racer. You look at the 90s european courses and riding and see it. When you watch Luca, Jani and Gilmour and now Vlad run a slalom course like that you can see it all. Those skillsets are intensified in tight/technical courses.

The big drawn out GS courses are fine..but if I want to make big long turns at those speeds I'll do it on my snowboard(s) where I have MUCH better grip on the surface and can do it twice as fast. I raced super-g and normal slalom on snowboards for years a long time ago. Replicating that on skateboards isn't my interest.

I'll run big courses. I own a 36" deck with 75mm wheels...but I myself am happiest on tighter more tech courses that require a plank...

Lucky for me I skate with some people who share that opinion.

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Stepanek on 2003-09-02 12:29 ]

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:31 pm

When persons are using the forums only for their personal vendettas they will tend to twist things to whatever they like, to be able to get at you.

Chris, you could actually see that the postive way. It means you are probably right. If you where wrong someone would have aimed at your mistake. Since no mistake was found they will go for "the twist".

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:36 pm

Hans...hahaha, good point.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:06 pm

Mr. Stepanek! Lucky you!

You are being quoted.

Ask yourself this question: how cool is that that you're being quoted by anyone?

If a pro-media were to post an interview with you anywhere, or show you on TV, they'd twist things in a way to make their story. Not to deliver yours. Twisting the truth and ripping stuff out of the context is used everywhere by practically everyone. If some cockroach without any writing skills (hell, without even Proper English!) does that, why should it be any different?

1. Attention is grabbed
2. An issue is created
3. Truth – twisted
4. Attention- channeled

Good stuff for slalom. At least a powerful source of propaganda spreads the joy of slalom for free!
___________________________________________
Now between you and me.

I think you're getting famous JUST for speaking out your thoughts! It's not really fare, but is rather cool.

And the * who twists your words doesn't even know what he's doing.... When in fact he's doing the same thing we're - Putting an ASS back in TS. Or whatever

The more that * and his * and *s talk/s shit, the better it is.

And UR famous...for just saying the naked truth...or whatever YOU believe the truth is.

Longboard crawling around the cones stops here.

Begin slalom.

Cheers.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:17 pm

vlad...you are alot more militant about alot of these issues than I and I love you for it...

I know things get twisted and such everywhere, I do it daily for my job with images and graphic design. The bigger issue is the common mentality in slalom right now that bigger/faster is better or more manly (the "more manly" part being a good 80% of it) is bunk. Ride what you like, race organizers can set what they like...more power to them. However riders can voice their opinion the best when they show up to certian races and not to others.

it is actually good to have race series that favor different course types. It gives everyone and outlet to ride what they like. We already have a series that favors bigger/faster/more manly courses. That is great for people who like that! I want to see a series that favors more technical tighter courses. That too will be great for those who favor that.

Slalom should grow beyond what my personal narrow interest is. It should go beyond that...but that doesn't mean I HAVE to go race in races with courses I know I won't do wellin or enjoy in because I never practice said course. If I did go race on such a course I would be prepared for said course type in advance. The thing is that I no longer care to prepare myself for those "manly" courses. That is my opinion and my interest....if someone doesn't agree fine.

The more we as racers have to choose from the better. There should be more than one game in town. Currently there is only one (and before they start complaining to me about it kudos FOR that one race series being out there...)...but it seems another one or two are sprouting up lately.. they seem to be favoring different courses types. That is cool. Why do we need to replicate the same type of thing everywhere.

Besides racing IS about specialization. Sure you can have those few natual savant like talents that can dominate in any given event but they are few. Most people focus on their interest or what they are good at, if those two things are the same it is a win/win for the person. I enjoy riding a plank in tighter or more technical courses...I have no interest in riding longboards, skating a pool, riding a park, crusing on a cruiser, racing on a downhill board, etc....

if I want speed and big turns I like my snowboards (hardboots)....I look for other things on my slalom skateboard.

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Stepanek on 2003-09-02 13:28 ]

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:59 pm

Slalom as a sport is far to small to have dissention in the troops.
If our goal is to grow the sport which I hope it is, we need to embrace ALL types of Slalom. What good is true TS if only 3 guys can do it well? Longboard slalom is the gateway to slalom.Case in point, Lisa and her daughters. Hardcore longboarders introduced to slalom on a course they could ride their LB's on. Now, 6mo later they are attending races, buying gear, spreading the word. I'm not saying don't be a specialist, thats fine. But support it all, GS, TS , LBS. In 5 years you'll have enough good racers to have the true TS you yearn for.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:06 pm

Er'rite. We enjoy goo teknikal GeeAs as much as da goo teknikal TeeAs.

Itz hard to grow slalom anyway you look at it. Segregation will not get it anywhere. And so won't loU-tek longboard crawling down a steep hill at over 30 MPH (There are alpine snowboards for that. And 50 MPH is not that uncommon. Inna turn!)

Glad.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:14 pm

I agree with you TK....that is why I think all types of slalom SHOULD exist.

Longboard slalom is a good gateway for the sport....as is park slalom and banked slalom...even slalom/boarder-cross. However I personally have zero interest in racing any of those five types. That doesn't make those forms of slalom any less valid (or fun for some) just because "I" don't want to do them. Add some of the current mentality of "if you don't like our type of slalom you are a kook and suck" or "if you don't like it you aren't a slalom racer" or best yet "if even one person disagrees with the way we say it is we are taking our cones and timer and giving up/going home"...THAT becomes a problem and I am commenting on that attitude mainly.

Over the past 3 years there has been a very inclusive attitude to course setting and such, which is great, it has gotten some people into slalom. it should continue.

That being said.....we also need to make sure diversity exists in slalom. Right now, unless you dig for it is hard to see anything other than longboard slalom (or one type of slalom to be more PC). Only recently have we seen events billed out of the norm (i.e. the Georgia race selling the fact it had an ISSA parallel slalom).

The gathering this past May was another extreme. Some of us had a great time on the main courses. Most couldn't make them or even felt their skill level was good enough to try. That was not good given what the event is billed as. BUT! Those who were there and riding/racing those courses DID have an amazing time and commented on wanting more racing like that.

Events like Da Farm have done a good job blending alot of skill levels and course types, it has from day one. However this event is unique for that (among many) reasons.

I think slalom is at a point where specialists again can come forward. If people see riders killing an insane tight/tech course that may get them ito it in the same way as longboards do for some people. There is enough people riding at a moderate to high skill level right now where events can be run with very tough courses and limited qualifiers. if you don't make the cut, practice harder.

The inclusive "everyone goes home with a prize" type of racing is great to get people involved (also some people want no more from slalom that just that). But racing that only a handful of people can make the course and winner takes all has it's place now too.

We just need to keep this entire thing balanced. If we favor any one side or type of racing the ship will eventually tip and sink. None of us want that.

Variety is good and it has to start somewhere and at sometime. Now is a good time.

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Stepanek on 2003-09-02 14:27 ]

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:34 pm

What's sad about all this is there is a good discussion going on here about the sport growing and seeing NEW TYPES of courses.

Someone will then come along and announce, "f#@k you. How dare you discuss something different? If you don't like what is happening, then do it yourself!"

And then someone else will stick their nose into the conversation and exclaim, "anyone who wants something different should be flogged in the public square!"

And all of this goes on while at the same time there's the ever constant cry of, "we want your feedback because only knowing what people are thinking will we ever be able to make things better!"

The good thing about SS.com is that at least we can determine what someone else THINKS without a litany of abuse from someone else who decides what is and isn't acceptable THOUGHTS about slalom.

P.S. And yes, I said "f#@k you" on purpose. Sometimes very nasty sentiments can only be described with very nasty words. If a 12-year old comes to this site and reads my words, all I can say is have you been in a Junior High School recently?

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:55 pm

And while I'm at it, I'd also like to mention a couple of things about the Georgia State Race this weekend: I got to help set the hybrid course. Yippee!

Me, Byrddog and Parsons set up a course that in essence contained "segments" we preferred. We didn't really set the course by committee, but more by just grabbing a few cones and setting a section the way we wanted it to be. It had some offsets, some wiggles, a really cool wide open curve (my contribution) some more offsets and I included one of my "against the grain" diagonals that sent the rider across the centerline from left to right. All in all, a little bit of everything on a really good hill.

The concensus was that most everyone (except WesE,) liked the course. Hollien said it "alright" and that was good enough for me. If he found it worth riding at his skill level, then I figured everyone would have a good time getting down. It wasn't "too" tight and it wasn't "too" loose so as to be boring. Theoretically we probably could have made it tighter, but then only a few skaters in the race would have really been able to blaze on it and we would have seen more falls. Fortunately, I don't think we had a splatter all day and the racing was very intense.

What's the moral of all this? Well, I guess it's to say that "tighter" is a relative term. One man's tight is another man's boring cruise down a hill. I think we found a decent compromise at the race Saturday so that everyone was challenged enough to bring out the best in everyone. Of course, any course on a hill that is just right you can adjust cone distance with speed: theoretically, if the cones are too far apart for you then you should be able to increase velocity and make the cones appear closer. Theoretically, that is.

Where the problem comes in with some courses is cones too far apart on too shallow a hill and then you get neither speed nor a challenged competitor. Were the cones too loose at The Georgia State Race? Probably for some. Were the cones too close together at Da' Farm? Probably for some. The trick, I would suppose, is being a diversified enough skater so as to adapt to any course under any conditions and still be competitive.

I don't know about anyone else, but that's really what I'm aiming for.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:20 pm

So i was thinking about this "growth of slalom skateboarding" issue as I sat over my vegan tofu wrap at lunch...

When can we start being specialists? When can we start riding the courses WE like and not having to be made to feel guilty about it? How many more people need to buy a slalom setup for this to happen? 1? 5? 50? 1000?

Slalom skateboarding will NEVER be big. It will never be a cash cow for the industry and it will NEVER be more than a small minority within the skateboarding world.

It ain't going to happen. Here is why.

Racing isn't for eveyone. Racing isn't easy (nor should it be) and racing can be cruel. In all sports that have people that race in them, unless the point of the sport is racing, people who race are a small minority.

Lets take downhill snow skiing as an example. Out of the millions of people who ski worldwide you probably hve less than 100,000 people who race...be NASTAR to Olympic level. Out of those 100,000 people worldwide you maybe have 10,000 who are REALLY into it and maybe only half of them complete at a top level and only maybe 50 of them are the very top level (Olympics). The majority of skiers are recreational, they go out and cruise around a manicured resort, the adventerous ones go out and ski in the backcountry. You don't see many recreational skiers out at the resort with a pair of highly tuned downhill sticks/boots in a speed suit... a setup intended for one run on a very specific course....even if you saw alot of those people how many would be happy.

the thing racing has done for skiing is improv the equioment. Advencements in constructions, shapes, materials (overall ski technology) have been taken alittle at a time out of racing and built into recreationa skis. Even the most advanced top level recreational skier's equipment has very little in common with top leve racer's equipment.

Look at cycling, motocycles, cars or inline skates for the same thing...

Racing IS innovation.

At best slalom skateboarding will move technology into mainstream skating. At best we will be a small minority of skaterboarders world wide.

What is wrong with that? Nothing. It is the way it is.

I don't think we will ever see many more people slaloming as we do now. We will see more but no the numbers people hope for. However what WILL (has to) change is the number of kids and women involved. The more young kids and girls we get into slalom the more the sport will grow. THAT is what slalom needs.

Unfortunately racing as a discipline is even LESS cool now-a-days with kids. Mainstream "extreme" sports are all about air and tricks and freestyle. 90% of kids (skaters in general) have no clue that people race skateboards (that includes standup downhill and luge/buttboards). of that 90% the number who would care or be into it is even less.

Racing in any sport is a small minority. What keeps it going is an influx of younger people starting and doing it each year.

Right now slalom doesn't have that. You can get all the 30 and 40s something together on weekends you want but eventually the sport will die. Get a bunch of 30-40 year olds out WITH alot of 10-19 year old kicking their butts they you have something.

Longboard slalom (and the other types I mentioned above) are a great gateway....but who is to say tight slalom isn't either? it got me into the sport and a few others I know.....all under 30 (which isn't that young but it is a start).

again the tme is now to be able to present all types of slalom without having to feel guilty for liking one over the other and only being interested in one or two.....specialists are a very good thing.

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Stepanek on 2003-09-02 15:24 ]

Noah Heinle · Post by **Noah Heinle** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:34 pm

I can't believe you eat vegan tofu wraps.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:36 pm

for a more direct example of percentages of racers look at snowboarding. Snowboarding attracts the same type of person as skating (mostly) but look at how snowboard racing has fared over the years within the snowboard world.

I think slalom skateboarding/general skateboard racing woun't fare THAT bad as it did in snowboarding because slalom skateboarding is ALOT more accessable that snowboard racing (no lift tickets, no trip to a resort....) but still this is a direct parallel.

So should we all jus give up? Nope....the sport will hopefully grow with younger kids getting involved. But tight slalom is just as valid to get kids into the sport as longboard slalom, GS, etc....

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:38 pm

On 2003-09-02 15:34, Noah Heinle wrote:
I can't believe you eat vegan tofu wraps.

dude they rock...some tofu, carrots, ginger, cucumbers and soy beans.....yummy!

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:43 pm

On 2003-09-02 15:38, Chris Stepanek wrote:
On 2003-09-02 15:34, Noah Heinle wrote:
I can't believe you eat vegan tofu wraps.

Yeah, dude, I can't believe you it those!

<center>

That's all I eat. Very nutritious! Perfect mix! Just perfect!</center>

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:57 pm

On 2003-09-02 15:20, Chris Stepanek wrote:

When can we start being specialists? When can we start riding the courses WE like and not having to be made to feel guilty about it?

Chris,

I don't know quite how to say this without sound like I'm being snooty or suggesting some people be EXCLUDED from an event. The answer to your question, though, is "we" can start being specialists when we start holding "INVITATIONAL EVENTS." In other words, people come to an event who are invited based on their particular preference for racing.

Again, I know that sounds exclusionary, but I hope you get what I mean in concept. If you and some of the Nor'easters wanted to hold an exclusive TIGHT RACING weekend, you would put out the word that only TIGHT RACERS would enjoy themselves. What's more is I think it would have to be announced in such a way that only people who practiced and enjoyed tight racing would make the trip. Coming to such an event to "find out" if someone "likes" tight racing isn't part of the program.

The same it true with Hybrid racing, Giant slalom or whatever. One of the things I've admired over the past few months is Mike Gorman's JPL races. He has a big hill with a gnarly surface and advertises a big giant slalom on a big hill. Someone who goes to his race knows what's in store. Don't go to Mike's race with little wheels and short boards and then complain afterwards there was nothing there that involved that kind of racing. In other words, a short board and small wheels wasn't invited. If someone insists on coming unprepared, everyone will still be hospitable, but don't gripe later about the course.

Of course, maybe my attitude about being involved in all kinds of events means I win nothing, but at least I might get asked to show up at all the parties and still be competitive!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:57 pm

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

it FINALLY appears. I've been waiting for you to whip that image out vlad.....

it is so subtle but so sweet!

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Stepanek on 2003-09-02 15:58 ]

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:04 pm

What's so funny?

You sound somewhat sceptical or rather sacrastic...You don't believe me? A good nutrition is a way to get your ass ready for TS. And Califonia Fruit and Nut mix gives me that something that none other mixes can.

I get a kick every time I swallow.

Good TS skills start with good training and good nutrition! Good nutrition is a balanced nutrition. Check it out for yourself:

<center>

</center>

Should we all care about promoting TeeAss, we should all swallow the mix.

Join the ISSA 25 cone series. One cyber race every second month!

Regular sessions allow newbies to join our community and discover slalom racing.