2008 ISSA World Record Weekend -- discussion

[Ramón Königshausen]

So obviously Pat hasn't yet posted what I e-mailed him last week. So this is it:

> On 08.10.2008, at 03:38, "Chewning, Patrick W (DPT Vancouver WA USA)" <patrick> wrote:
>
>> JRAD submitted your time for a world record.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you agree that the course was flat? In other words, would you have been willing to run it in the opposite direction?
>>
>>
>>
>> There are some people who believe the course was not flat. I want your opinion.

------

> From: Ramón Königshausen <koenigshausen>
> Date: 8. Oktober 2008 19:07:27 GMT+02:00
> To: "Chewning, Patrick W (DPT Vancouver WA USA)" <patrick>
> Cc: "ramon@airflow-skateboards.com" <ramon>
> Subject: Re: Over 80 cones -- 50-cone World Record
>
> Well Pat,
>
> Quite honest, it was not entirely flat. But as I heard Marcus' record wasn't set in the flat and run both ways either. - that's what I heard, so don't take it for granted...
>
> Anyway, I quickly skimmed the WR thread. I think the rules should be changed - I will propose it. Not because I would then have set a record adhering the rules; it won't be changing the past, but because I think it's of no use and wouldn't make any difference if we stick to flats. The point is: if you want run it flat and fast what do you do? Bulid a starting ramp 15ft high? That can't be it. Well some might say "let's restrict the ramp height" - This is not a solution, makes it complocated and we want to have the rules as simple as possible.
>
> To answer your question: yes, I would have run the course in the other direction if we had had a starting ramp 15ft high.
>
>
> /Ramón
>
>


rmn

[Marcus Seyffarth]

I think the rules should be changed - I will propose it.

Great. So what should be changed?

[Ramón Königshausen]

Well, I'd say that it doesn't have to be on the flat rather than restrict the ramp or push distance. The cone distance may be of any length. Makes it a lot easier.

"Fastest Skateboarder over 50 cones."

That's what it is. Everything else concerning the course specs you'd have to explain to a layman should be abandoned.


rmn

[Johan Thiel]

I guess that one of the reasons for creating a World record format with rules is that it will be the same circumstances for all racers that make an attempt to break the record.

The cyber and the 50-cones are the most clear ones and are quite easy to follow.
Same distance, no elevation. In Cyber you need to practice the start technique to gain speed.
In 50 cones you need to push or find a spot where you gain speed before passing the start line.
A record set for 50 cones … will be one you can compare with others.

From the ISSA rules
5.2. 50-CONE COURSE (METRIC UNITS) -- SEE DIAGRAM
Start line at center of 1st cone
Cones spaced at 1.6m in a straight line.
Timing starts when racer 1st crosses start line
Finish line at center of 50th cone
Timing finishes when racer 1st crosses finish line
International Slalom Skateboarding Association (Revised 2008)
0 cone displacements allowed
run on flat with no wind.
Start from ramp or push-start.

5.4. DEFINITIONS
Flat : Having a slope of less than 1% elevation differential from start to finish
o For the 25-cone course, this is 20” (0.5m) over the 174 ft (53m) course.
o For the 50-cone course, this is 0.75m (30”) over the 78.4m (257 ft) course.

The 100-cones is more up the racers to set what ever they want in what ever steep hill and with cones tight as you want … or even different length depending on what you can handle with the speed.

If I would choose my self , I do think the 100 cones is the most fun to race.
But as a world record format I also think the 50 cone race is great because you know that you can compare.
If the flat concept is not wanted the rules should be the same for 50 cones as for 100 cones.
And then it is just speed.

[Ramón Königshausen]

I guess that one of the reasons for creating a World record format with rules is that it will be the same circumstances for all racers that make an attempt to break the record.

How can we have the same circumstances everywhere? Anyone got a measurement for asphalt quality? Wind? Centripetal force?

I think the only way to create even circumstances for all racers is to simplify the rules. If you state it has to be flat, no wind etc. you'd first have to find a suitable venue for your record.

If someone jumps over a canyon with a motorcycle and the canyon is 500m deep, can't I break it if I jump further but the canyon is only 300m deep?



It's the time and number of cones that matter. Not the venue. We want facts, not a list of rules and restrictions enabling possible records on any kind of tarmarc

[Pat Chewning]

The current rules call for flat courses on 25 and 50 cone courses.
(Current rules were proposed MARCH 1st and finalized JUNE 6th -- that was when the ISSA members discussed and voted on the rules.)

This particular race was not flat, so no current record can be accepted.

There are some arguments for changing future rules, and I guess we will address that in the future sometime...

We can never have the EXACT same course everywhere. Neither can the swimmers (some pools are faster than others), or the track runners, or the pole vaulters .......... etc. We can specify some of the most important parameters, such as flat, wind, distance, # of cones, etc. In fact, some of the challenge in setting up a World Record attempt is selection of a surface and a timeframe that is most suitable for setting records. You wouldn't expect to set a very good record in the rain, for example, or on a flat surface with large expansion-joint cracks, or on a polished concrete surface.

[Marcus Seyffarth]

I don't know who has been talking about restricting ramp height or push distance. As far as I remember the rules states that you can have any ramp or any push distance and the only thing is that it must be self propelled. Perhaps I'm wrong about this.

Its not gonna help to allow any steepness of the hill, its still as much about the venue and the start. You will never be able to break a record from a 'normal-sized' startingramp since you have to go at least 5 cones per second from the very first cone.

Personally I think it would be good to make it mandatory to run the race both ways in order to make it valid in the 50 and 25 cone races. The downside is that it will make it even harder to understand for spectators since if you make a good run one way, then you have
to stop, switch start/stop switches and then make another run back again to get the average. The other way to make it valid is to enforce better documentation that the venue really is flat. Next time we do this I'll bring a laser level, put it on the first cone and put a measuring tape on the last to show that it is flat.

I spoke to some non skaters about the records some time ago and they fully understood the concept of the flat stuff but couldn't understand the 100 cone thing where you can choose any hill.

Perhaps my friends are stupid, but more likely they are the average spectator and could not care less for the cones per second but understand "it should be flat, no hitting cones and fastest run over 50 cones at a given distance wins".

Personally I don't really care which way it is, its just to adapt, make the best out of it and try to break it within the given rules. I am glad that there are some rules so that there actually exist some records to break - even though flat racing really suck.

[Ramón Königshausen]

If it's flat I'm out. Keep your records for yourself. I tried to explain that the ramp height and push distance are as important as an inclined venue. If I ever gonna attend a World Record attempt in flat I request a 6m starting ramp or car tow as starting method.

rmn

[Sj Kalliokoski]

50 cones toughts
For outsiders running 50 cones in downhill slope for world record is as mysterious as running 110 hurdless downhill.
Setup it self could be reflecting quite much to 110 hurdeless.
To get full respect for world record times, they should be run as similar environments as possible.

Surface should be full flat, or should be run on two directions. Wind should be less than 2? meters/sec.

Track
There are two options to choose one for world record rules
- total length defined and cones spread there with equal distance
- 50 cones with any distance
Fixed length gives less possibility for differences relatd track but it will be harder to build due total length should be measured accurately.
50 cones is easier to setup and gives more freedom but gives also some possibility to gain with track setup. Track setup is inline with 100 cones anyway.

Starting
Ramp as per ISSA rules 2m max, no other options

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

I think the problem is what to reach with the world record ?

There was a ful concept with goals what the world record should give to slalom. And there was another concept which was made by discussing trough the rules. 13 people voted on this thing. I think the result was 12:1.

Perhaps a lot of the voters are not organising races and think for the best for them selfs, what is normal. But when you have the chance than try to wear other sunglasses. A World Record is a chance to show slalom to a big audience. The audience don't care if it is flat or not, they don't care if you start from the ramp or not. They want to be a part of this whole spectacel and push the racer's to their limits.

The question will be do we want to give organizers a chance to promote slalom trough this World Record thing or do we want to keep the Record for our small scene ?

/J-Rad

[Sj Kalliokoski]

I think world record should be bases on riders input, not steepness of surface on track.
It would be silly to start to run 110 hurdless on down hill slopes just to make new world records.
Basic idea of world record should be that times should be comparable, and that will not happen if track is built down hill. On flat and specified start ramp height it will be.
Otherwise we will end to have world records in Swedish track, German track etc
Even now we are measuring time more accurately than we can build track so end result is not very reliable.

[Marcus Seyffarth]

Thank you Pat (again) for the initiative and specially for the very nice official diplomas that arrived the other day!