What makes a Hybrid course?

Adam Trahan · Post by **Adam Trahan** » Wed Sep 18, 2002 3:53 pm

Can anyone post information on what constitutes a Hybrid course or any reflections on it?

In my experience, it is a combination of loose gates, tight sections (stinger) and or with a meandering line.

Although I enjoy a Hybrid course (I enjoy all aspects of slalom), I have found that it is a easy course to set and run. In that I am not all challenged.

Anyone with thoughts on the Hybrid style of slalom course?

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:59 am

Hybrid would seem to indicate a blending of two types...ie a blend of TS and GS. So that a person running the course would not have an advantage if they chose either a GS or TS set up.

Hybrid could also be taken to mean that there are no true GS or TS spacings.

IMHO hybrid has come to mean this.

Hybrid GS = Tighter GS style course set on a slow hill.

Hybrid TS= loose Less technical TS set set on poor surface on a hill with some pitch. Having a good surface would enable a technical TS to be set even if the pitch were marginal.

Hybrid to me means the hill/surface is not suited for the discipline so the difficulty level or speed is reduced. Hybrid courses are good for having races where there are few racers with widerly varying ability levels and equipment.

Hybrid TS spacing would be 7-8.5 feet for straight cones and say 10.5 foot cones with 1 foot of offset. Such hybrid courses lend themselves to be run with longboards as well.

Hybrid courses should exist for bringing together riders of widely varying ability and equipment levels- but IMHO are not needed in higher level competitions where the equipment is optimized for the course and the ability levels of the riders in each division are similar.

Andy Bittner · Post by **Andy Bittner** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:20 am

Well, as the guy for whose courses the term "Hybrid" seemed to have been coined, I couldn't disagree more with John's assertion that "hybrid" slalom is somehow a less competitive form of course. In the first place, those of us who tend to be proponents of the "hybrid" course simply wish the term "hybrid" had never been applied to them. Tight Slalom is tight, and Giant slalom is giant. Somewhere in-between those two exists Slalom, not "hybrid" slalom.

For me, the primary key to a good Slalom (or "hybrid") course is rhythmic unpredictability or even a deliberate arhythmia.

This course style evolved for me over twenty years of riding slalom, mostly alone, but sincerely committed to never becoming bored.

My personal experience of what most people refer to as Tight Slalom is that while the line of the course may meander a bit, the spacing between and rhythm of the gates themselves tends to change very little; so that no matter where the line of the course might wander, the basic rhythm of the turns in the course tends to be relatively steady, 1-2-1-2-1-2, bang-bang-bang. Over the years, although I gave it much work in its' time, simply trying to consistently wiggle down a course at the highest rate I could generate was boring and tedious. I like the rhythm of a good slalom course to be something like one-two-oooooooone-two-oooooone-two-one-twoooooooo-oooooone-etc.

Now, if my "Hybrid" or Slalom courses have been somewhat less challenging than they might possibly be, please remember that I've been constantly admonished, since this re-birth began, to remember that rookies and newbies might be riding each course I set, and that we wouldn't want to do anything to discourage them. How can anyone expect me to set a course that might fully challenge a John Gilmour, operating under those guidelines?

This past weekend's Slalom course down Main Street, Morro Bay, might've been the best opportunity to really showcase what I consider a Slalom or "Hybrid" course for the best in the world. Unfortunately, Main Street, Morro Bay is NOT a blank canvas. There were so many road features, gouges, manhole and meter covers and the word STOP written in really thick letters, that the overall line of the course was pretty much dictated to me by the street itself. As a result, and as Michael Stride noted on Ncdsa.com, the result was "tight-ish". I'd have to agree with Michael that the course had that steady, rhythmic, but slightly meandering, almost snake-like appearance of a good tight course, without really being truly tight.

So, after making my motion that we do away with the term "Hybrid" altogether, I'd like to note that, to date, it seems the best true example of a good, challenging Slalom course that I've been able to set since this re-birth began was the dual course set for the '01 D.C. Summer Night Sessions Season Finale. These are the courses that people once heard me, facitiously, refer two as the twin dragons (since I think naming courses is stoooopid), and started actually referring to them as such. Ask anyone who was there. At the speeds that were attainable on that course, there was nothing "less-competitive" or "less-challenging" about it.

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:04 pm

I never skated the Summer Finale course of 2001 but I have seen photos and have a general idea as to the layout of the course. It looked like a lot of fun. I Did skate the hill on two occassions and have a good idea of how that course would run.

The course did seem to bring together various ability levels in that less experienced skaters could compete with more experienced skaters.

I would venure to guess that the Giant slalom type gates were not as technically difficult as A harder high speed GS gate in a GS course, nor would the slalom gates in the course be as challenging as those in a technical slalom course.

Not that the most practiced skaters wouldn't win....they did. But I suppose what I am trying to say is that it would be more fun for the more practiced skaters to be challenged by a course and be able to go home with the feeling that they learned and conquered (the opponents and the course)that day...or at the least went home learning higher level skills from others, yet still turned in a good placing.

I have seen a few slalomers skills develop in a very quick fashion. Terence Kirby, William Tway, Vlad, UR13, Noah all learned to slalom very quickly despite living on the East Coast with bad weather, and limited short season (not to mention all of them having family duties- you too Vlad). Why is this? I would say it is because the course difficulty levels that they set for themselves are consistently challenging to them.

Hybrid courses do offer some challenge in not blowing out on a very offset gate at lower speed, or perhaps trying to accellerate through very loose straight gates (grunters) but I don't think that those types of courses develop strong skating skills in a short period of time.

Looking at the fastest East Coast newbies (Less than 2 years of competitive slaloming) what type of courses did they train on, and race on locally?

Hybrid certainly is a good thing for introducing longboarders to our sport- and the DC crew has benefited from this along with consistent practice courses being set. I also ascribe to the concept that Hybrid courses look the most attractive to Newbies and are encouraging and I hope they help grow our sport- but when it comes time to compete I wouldn't want to see a Hybrid course displace a challenging slalom or GS course for the higher level skaters- hey it's their competition too.

One other thing in favor of Hybrid slalom though.... in a good hybrid it allows GS skaters on GS decks to compete fairly with TS skaters on TS decks. That makes it more interesting.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 5:59 am

True. How did you know we set challenging Hybrids to practice?
Don’t you think Gilmour’s slalom camps help a bit? No? I do.
My favorite practice course is “Dostoyevsky Hybrid”. In short, “That which does not kill us makes us stronger”. No same cone distances or offsets. Absolute arrhythmia with what at first seems to be absolutely UNMAKABLE offsets. Goal: to go home. Method to achieve goal: make the course clean at least twice. Success rate:100%. Time spent: numerous hours. Fun level: varies from absolute ZERO to the state of NIRVANA. Payoff: changed “primitive brain” chemistry (new motor skills), cardio work out (aerobic), increased speed, decreased reaction time, and knowledge of failed potential race set-ups.
Tradeoff: after skating the Dostoevsky Hybrid courses, the actual race courses are piece of cake; absolutely dull, primitively straight and uninteresting. Almost BORING! It’s a tradeoff between the tradeoff and the payoff. Wait a minute…. those are different differences. Ahh…. Never mind.
Hybrid is the best all around slalom practice course. Or zo I zink.
PS Hybrid is called “Special Slalom” in Europe.
Vlad.

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 6:13 am

I think Jani has a good idea of what Special Slalom is but unfortunately he hasn't seen that much USA Hybrid. Hybrid by the Special slalom definition in ISSA's rules would fit- but the Special slalom courses I ran were more like Technical TS (you wouldn't see a 36 inch board make it through a European special Slalom course). I do think that Special slalom is the most complicated of all the slalom disicplines and perhaps the biggest mental and physical challenge since strategy and body english are key.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 6:30 am

Ok, must be misunderstanding. I described American Hybrid to Jani, and we agreed that it was the same as Special SL in EU. You’re one of the few Americans who went to race in Europe and the only one to bring the truth back with you. So, whatever you say. I take it back. Hybrid is not Special Slalom. Hear it loud and clear, people! They are different differences. Although they have the same idea.

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:34 am

I just thought it would have been impossible to get a 36" board through a European special slalom

As it was I had a very difficult time taking my short wheelbase Full nose through their special slalom courses- really...just barely making each cone- struggling not to blow out (I also ran the widest trucks of anyone - certainly full tracks were too wide for those courses). Most of the time I probably would have had an easier time on a Jani Soderhall S-camber..... but I rode a Turner in hopes of getting production/demand going for Bob.

American Hybrid however- for the most part very long boards can make it through the Hybrid courses as we have seen this year.

You could take European special slalom....then put it under a magnifying glass and move the offsets in to reduce the difficulty level....then it might be like American hybrid. Even then there is very little about a special slalom that shows the ability to break the course up into sections......ie here s stinger- then 4 offsets, then a curve...then a diagonal set of cones...

Instead each cone is offset...and somewhat uniquely requireing for some cones a great deal of body contortion to make it through....also requiring you to figure out how to approach each cone individually so that you can make a hard cone coming up possible by making the preceeding cone(s) more difficult to spread the difficulty (hip shift- or offsetness- or tightness...... or oh Sh*t! all three at once) out over more cones.

[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2002-10-30 22:41 ]

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 12:22 am

Very interesting. I can (almost) imagine myself skating through one of these.
John, I think we just might have something else here too.

When the wheelbase/width of the board is too much for a given cone distance/offsets, the infamous TWITCH that gives a skater forward momentum (propels him forward in other words) is becoming impossible to execute, eventually slowing the skater down by a greater margin than, say, a wrong combination of soft wheels and such. It is esp. important on flat/ter courses where strong pumping is essential for “being in the money”, so to speak. If the wheelbase and/or width of the board/trucks is/are too much, one doesn’t have much choice but to WIGGLE through the course instead of PUMPING&wiggling. Downhill slalom courses would benefit such “WIGLERS”, while “PUMPERS” will like flatter courses more. Somewhere in between I imagine there would be all-around champ’s courses.

I haven’t raced in EU or CA, but it’s becoming apparent that Europeans almost always set courses where pumping AND wiggling were required, while a traditional US slalom course favors a wiggler who’s task is to find a clean line and stick to it. “There is not much one could do here” was a remark of one famous Euro when racing in MB TS.

Here is an idea. How about calling your typical Gilmourian course a "Special Hybrid"? It’s a Hybrid, it’s too tight to be American Hybrid and it’s too loose to be Euro Special Slalom?

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 12:26 am

Special Slalom should be called Fabulous Slalom.

Claude Regnier · Post by **Claude Regnier** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 8:20 pm

All this time I thought "Hybrid" was a course that encompassed several ridding styles and skills. Tight was tight. GS was larger offsets.

So what would you call course that had 7 technical sections to it. Features almost everything you could pissobly see at a race.

5' centers, 5.5' offsets, hips, g-curves, line-leaders(good description John) a couple off very hard to make cones that forced you to work on several things at once to maintain speed. Oh and by the way it took me 7 outings to make it through without hitting a cone. This is the type of course that you want to set to get better.

Work on tranfers from one section to another and maitain or build speed. Don't give up and don't quit. Although making each section was no problem. trying to do it all at full speed or progressive all the way through is good technical training.

If time is of essence then set some courses like this one once in a while, you'll see. There is no use in running course that you can make all the time.

Etienne de Bary · Post by **Etienne de Bary** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 4:47 pm

a foto album i would like to suggest visiting http://www.madcow.ch/skb/#

http://www.madcow.ch general info
the Madcow is a very hybrid race, it's inside the city, there's a crowd for it, i think it's fun...

Etienne de Bary · Post by **Etienne de Bary** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 5:16 pm

there's a dhtml trick in the photobook adress:
in the page that opens you must click in "bilder" link to get to the photoalbum page

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:48 pm

I revisited this discourse again and rethought.

Perhaps the ideas of course setting relate directly to the goals of the course setter.

Vladz course.
To set a course that is a technical challenge- without the intention of racing it- but with the intention to build skills and find answer to a previously unasked question. Ie...is this type of offset makeable? How can I make this even more difficult? How grueling can a course be?- and henceforth the stipulation... the more grueling- the more rewarding it is to finish it.

PARTY EQUIVALENT= 150 PROOF HAND DISTILLED RUSSIAN VODKA.

OVERHEARD AT THE PARTY "Killer stuff- but you might be drinking alone". "Could I drink more next time?" "Those spectators at the bar are amazed." "Is it possible to make 160 proof vodka?" " Look at the face that guy makes while he downs that one". "How about shortening the bottle and making it stronger?" "I'm ready to drink with anybody now." "You gotta drink with this guy- he's funny as shit when he's pissed drunk- and come to think of it- he's funny even when he's not drunk". "I here there is a whole country/continent with drinkers like this guy!" "He might be drinking alone for now, but there are a lot of people who feel he is a killer bartender- his newest club should become a happening spot so long as he gets a good location"

GBJz course concept for Hybrid (note Andy I'm putting words into your mouth here). Andy has spent his time with his version of TS which is a limited push- some offsets, and lots of cones roaming across the fall line with some straights. Such courses failed to get him anyone to skate with. So the GBJ Hybrid was born to be unintimidating to newbies on any type of gear. Longboards could run it, short boards could run it, slalom boards could run it, even kick flipper decks could make it through. BUT to make it through fast was a different task. The offsets and "Arthymia" make gathering speed an arduous task. So the Newbie can seem "competitive" with the pro and not get discouraged nor embarassed.

Party equivalent = CORONA LIGHT.

OVERHEARD AT THE PARTY . "Not bad, I think I'll have another, same time next week guys?" "Anyone up for a movie?" "I'll bring some friends with me next week, okay?" "Who's buying the burittos?" "Ever tried this with a lime or a lemon?- totally changes the beer." "What a diverse group of drikers here-everyone from Biker guys to FBI agents." "Yeah sometimes we have Sam Adams, Michelob, the ocassional Heiniken or two- never Guiness or anything bitter" "We need more chicks here- maybe we should get a stereo or not drink in the parking lot." "Road trip!"

Such courses have worked in the DC area taking complete Newbies and helping to get a slalom scene started (Curt Kimble Exempt). The dynamics of getting 10 people together and slaloming is different than 1 on 1 and people are aren't all that comfortable skating in front of a bunch of other people if the skill range appears to be wide. His courses feature deliberate (on the three's) arythemia and offsets placed to make gathering speed an difficult task as the offsets are hard to run at speed. Times for the pack are condensed with closer gaps between the top riders and newbies. Cruising the course is easy- indeed it is likely you will make it on your very first attempt.

Quote from another thread-
"In NYC a slalomer friend of mine and I used to skate the Tavern on the green course (A simple set of straight cones 6-6.5 feet on center maintained by slalomskateboarder/Rollerskater/inline skaters for the past 20 years). We both rode Turners, and to newbies wanting to get into it they did not feel as comfortable learning tos lalom when either one of use were around as it was that there might have been a 5 second gap in times through a 30 cone course.

We failed to spur slalom growth- and in the end it was only about 4-5 guys that skated NYC on slalom decks most from the 1970's (and of course there was no equipment - no ebay either around).

PARTY EQUIVALENT =
Keg beer-

OVERHEARD AT THE PARTY "I don't know what brand, but hey...it's free." "Yeah this party has been going on every weekend for 20 years- the cops rarely bust us now." "It's always the same bunch of guys and a few new skater chicks" "See that guy? His dad owns the Whitney museum, he was a huge dope smoker but he totally rips- races cars when he's not here or partying at his park avenue pad." "Crowd's here now- think I'll have another beer- gotta love it when they clap after you chug". "Those Inliners won't let us get different beer all they do is find weird ways to drink it".

In Boston I started a slalom course - also a beginner course with cones 6-7 foot on center - straights. But this time it was a dual course. This was more interesting as people paired up to race others of similar ability levels- but it really only attracted Inline skaters. Frankly it was boring on boards. We had about 5 guys racing on Turners there."

PARTY EQUIVALENT=
BUD LIGHT

OVERHEARD AT THE PARTY - "Hey, thanks for the beer.... psst lets go to a real bar outside of the city." "The first beer was good- but I really get pretty sick after 1/2 a case." "Why do they always have the same beer every week? I mean, simple is okay but how about something for us guys who want some taste?" "Sometimes they have some imported brew- but the Inliners always want the domestics" "I don't mind drinking with the Inliners since some of them wear tight fitting bikinis." "There's a pool party after this right?" "Music here is pretty good- you'll hear it in the clubs next month". "Cops never bust us- no matter how loud the music is- our party is the Venice Beach of Boston" "A few times a year they have three different types of bear on tap at once when it gets really crowded". "Yeah last week I had to wait 10 minutes for a beer- but I met some interesting people on line."

Gillyz TS course for racing. A course that will build speed or allow to be run if entered with speed. A section to develop speed if needed. Offsets which do not sap speed, but are actually pumpable to gather more speed, increasing technical difficulty as the course progresses and speed progresses with the option to run a section slower to make the course makable at lower speed for less pacticed slalomers- DQ is not an option in the mind of the course setter- there should be a way to make the course without blowing out if you even a lower intermediate skater. Cones that lead your body in one direction with the next line of cones yanking your body in another direction. Use of the hill's features (double fall line, crown, peak pitch areas, runouts, curves) to either add or reduce difficult according to the skill levels of the participants. A course that REQUIRES thinking before charging it and ABSOLUTLY REQUIRES thinking while in it. Such courses result inevitably in a wide range of times for the participants- but with more participants feeling like they learned new techniques and are more accomplished slalomers for running these courses. Lastly- there is always a "heartbreaker" section in the course near the end where racers have to be thinking about how much speed to enter the final section- you could either criddle a lot, run it clean, or blow out- it is the racer's choice. And this lends suspense to the competeing racers, the crowd, and most surprisingly to the racer running the course when he cleans it!

PARTY EQUIVALENT=
BLACK AND TAN for guts + (Absolut/Chambourd/lemon wedges/7-up) for "zing without the hangover" +
REDBULL and Vodka apertif.

OVERHEARD AT THE PARTY
"Everyone leaves having a good time and a few stories". "Did you see the chick with that guy last week?" "Man last week's party was off the hook" "Everyone ended up in the hot tub" "Joe was walking around with this huge 4 gallon beer bottle" "next weeks party should be good- but get lots of sleep before that one- who knows when it will be over" "Cops came by last week- but they just hung out and watched"

Gillyz practice courses. Pretty much pure torture, followed by more torture, and a little more torture after that- followed by a few lucky runs, and finally a little revelation at the end, followed by pretty clean runs (with the needed selective criddleing)followed by exhaustion and a need to do it again soon. Lots of technical hips- offsets, step overs, line leaders, j curves, uneven spacing, controlled braking/sliding chirp sections, with some high speed straights near the end- with the final heartbreaker tech section at speed for the last 5 cones.

PARTY EQUIVALENT=
4 LONG ISLAND ICE TEA'S + 6 FLAGS ROLLERCOASTER.

OVERHEARD AT THE PARTY "If you can make it through that- yer a drinker." "How about ordering something everyone would like?" "That drink is disgusting...but I'm beginning to like it". "Just when I thought everything was going well- wham!" "That was more of a party than I expected." "good party- but everone there was dripping with sweat." "I need a new glass." "I'm going to have a hell of a hangover tomorrow" "I thought you said there was no alcohol in this?" "No thanks, I'm driving".

So my goals are Speed, use of body english, controlled slides, difficult courses- hard to make at first, progressive difficulty as the course continues, speed kept high throughout if possible, and tech sections to be made at speed. End reward- an acutal workout, gained skills, reward for making the course fast. Did I mention Speed?

My concept for Hybrid would require a steep hill akin to the GS hill used for Breckenridge. I would keep the technical difficulty lower and require some rhythm as well as speed gaining sections. The line of the course would give no advantage to GS or TS set ups (For some gates it would be too wide to pump a TS deck well and for others too tight to pump the GS deck- and the line of the hill would give two distinct choices of lines to be selected for GS and TS set up, hybrid wheelbase decks would be at a disadvantage for traction in the GS gates but would be able to pump all gates. Longboards would be able to be used but like in regular hybrid would likely not be fast enough to podium.

[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-01-27 13:08 ]

Claude Regnier · Post by **Claude Regnier** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 9:08 pm

So John just before you stop drinking answer the private message will you!!!! :lol:

Andy Bittner · Post by **Andy Bittner** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:48 pm

Bravo! Bravo! That's a Pulitzer Winner there! Actually, John's posts often make me glaze-over, kind of like some of Chaput's posts, but this one was wonderful, and in many ways very accurate.

John's a little off about how my course setting style developed, but he's dead-on about that style's place in the current scheme of things.

The description of Gillyz race courses sound much more like what I'm thinking when I've set race courses over the past few years, although you clearly see them from the perspective of the highly-experienced rider. However, when truly left to my own devices and in a serious frame of mind about training, the courses I set would fit much more into the Vladz or Gillyz-Practice course mentality. Curiously, relative to the whole alcohol thing (although I really don't drink much at all anymore), this is really a reflection of my partying methods too. I'm a stout drinker. Stout or Stoli! Funny. If alcohol partying is truly the name of the game, I'm most likely to go for something knee-buckling that's, almost certainly, going to hurt for the next few days! The only time I've really ever considered Corona appropriate was when in need of refreshment, when hanging out with a bunch of friends at a hot, summer night session. Your analogies are excellent, John.

What your post has done most is to remind me just how long it's been since I've really trained or practiced. I quit my routine of serious, routine training back in '94, and the whole re-birth has actually even cut into my random, non-structured sessioning, meaning that I'm riding even less. I'm going to have to start making a point of staying on a training routine this year. My problem is that I can't or don't really practice and train, when other people are around. There are a few people that I could possibly work with, but for me training is mostly a solitary thing, and training courses are a whole different thing! Training courses can (and should) consist of absolutely anything one can think of and if really intended for training (as opposed to being intended for equipment tuning) should almost always be very challenging in some way or another.

Thanks for a good read, John. The only place where I glazed over was, "(GBJ's) courses feature deliberate (on the three's) arythemia and offsets placed to make gathering speed an difficult task as the offsets are hard to run at speed." I have no idea what this means, which is scary, considering that I'm apparently doing it!

[ This Message was edited by: Andy Bittner on 2003-01-27 21:30 ]

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:21 pm

I don’t know Gillyz courses.

{the edited part: It’s been a long and busy day. I know what I thought I didn’t know. It’s better to be slow online and fast on Gillyz courses.}

But I do know that this post deserves to be the post of the month.

PS. Next time I drink 140 proof alcohol (not that uncommon in Russia), the first toast will be to Gilmour.

_________________________________________

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:54 pm

If I were asked to name one course and one rider that/who have had the most impact on me before I started racing, I’d say this:

April 08, 2001. The Gathering. Chris Chaput.

Vlad, Hybrid Specialist,
CEO, Plankk-R Advanced Systems.

Leonardo Ojeda · Post by **Leonardo Ojeda** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 6:43 pm

vlad: ditto, but in the following year

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:00 pm

Who set that course? And what was the spacing and offset like? Pictures can be confusing shot from the bottom.

Andy Bittner · Post by **Andy Bittner** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:35 pm

My recollection is that this photograph is of the course that Mitch Temoche set. I was working on running the event and didn't pad up to ride it, but the general reaction to this course was not favorable, similar to the reaction to the GS course at Avila Beach.

What we were doing at The 1st Gathering was rotating through different course setters. Then, after each new course was set, and some practice had, we'd race. It was curious to watch the number of racers that would or would not sign up to race a course, as a vote on that courses' popularity. Only four people chose to actually race on this course.

This course was very "grindy", requiring almost super-human side-to-side contortions to accomplish with any speed. I think that today, with the general level of slalom skating so vastly improved, that this course would not seem nearly as shocking as it did at the time, and would be enjoyed by more skaters than it did on this day.

[ This Message was edited by: Andy Bittner on 2003-01-30 11:37 ]

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:10 pm

It certainly looked like a lot of stretching was required for that one. .. as the slalomers improve the courses should also get better. Would you have called that a hybrid course or TS? What was the spacing typically- it looks like a tremendous amount of offset for the spacing.

Andy Bittner · Post by **Andy Bittner** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:17 pm

You'd have to ask Mitch what he'd call it. If I had to guess at a label that would define his honest conscious intent at the time, I would say "Very Hard Slalom", and as different from GBJ slalom as he could go. Maybe a play on a Euro-slalom term could describe it, and that would be "Extreme Special Slalom". Most of us there were calling it "Crazy" and/or "Stupid". I'm pretty sure that this is the course on which Simon mangled his elbow, although his fall was at the Finish Line and not the course's fault.

[ This Message was edited by: Andy Bittner on 2003-01-30 15:19 ]

Claude Regnier · Post by **Claude Regnier** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:25 pm

And yet Chappy looks so Natural.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:54 pm

April 11, 2001 to CMC.

“Simon Levine was the fastest guy by far. He had close to 5 seconds on the rest of the company (the first day). The course was "too easy" for him, yet not too many people could handle it. We stopped by for an hour on Saturday and another hour on Sunday and haven't seen the actual races. But we did see Simon's 20.5 sec run while everyone else (who didn't skip sections like Chaput did around 25 sec.”

The only reason I showed up for the Gathering was to talk to Gilmour about Madds snowboards. Gilmour wasn’t there and KMG put me on his board.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:48 am

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:53 am

Nice angulation. Its time to bring that show on the road.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:56 am

See you in Paris? They will have a "special" special SL. {translation} a Real Hybrid.

On 2003-04-20 00:53, Terence Kirby wrote:
Nice angulation. Its time to bring that show on the road.

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:00 am

when is Paris? May I bring Sandy?

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:06 am

C'mon, Terence, you know Paris is scheduled for May 24-25 or Mid June. My love is coming with me (as far as I know). I miss Paris. I love Paris. Paris is the only reason I practiced today. Hmmmm....Paris.

On 2003-04-20 01:00, Terence Kirby wrote:
when is Paris? May I bring Sandy?

Glenn S · Post by **Glenn S** » Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:18 am

Yes, nice style there Vlad. Is that the Park and Ride spot? how many cones can you setup there?

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:27 am

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:58 am

What is interesting to note is that Vlad's courses were not unlike a lot I used to set I Central Park.

I liked a few tight gates to generate a lot of speed....along with a fast pitch and then I tossed in some wider GS style gates...and whammm right back into TS style gates. But not necessarily as GBJ said one, two, one, two, one , two etc. but as the course progress less rhythm and more of cone to cone type slalom. You need a lot of speed and then this type of course is loads of fun.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:23 pm

I don’t quite understand those hybrid courses that don’t have straight(er) tight(er) gates in the beginning for getting speed.
It’s easy to take pictures of the courses and do walkthroughs online. I’ll start this weekend.

Matthew Wilson · Post by **Matthew Wilson** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:18 pm

I am with you JG and Vlad. Though I have not a spec of experience compared to you guys and many others, the courses I have enjoyed the most are those with tights to start and end with a balance of varied offsets in between (as long as speed can be maintained). One thing that I have learned when setting a course for myself is that it is really important where offsets are placed on the hill. I have killed my speed a number of times by putting GS style offsets on the wrong part of the incline.
I know, I know...this is all well known stuff; but as late-blooming beginner, it is all new discovery for me, and therforequite exciting.
Oh...but I still stand by my statement made in other posts that a course needs to have rhythem.
I am learning that course setting is an art.

One thing that I can't stand, though, is that I have come across a few people in the sport who think that they are all that when it comes to course setting. Damn, folks!...shut up and just set your course, and don't get so offended when people criticize it. This sport is too small for arrogance!! Sorry, maybe that should have gone in the darkside

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:50 pm

Matt, it would only belong on the dark side if you named names.

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:49 pm

Vlad- I get what you mean by Hybrid. Your hybrid has no loose straight cones anywhere on the course. Or offsets that are ridiculously easy.

So your hybrid is not a longboarder course.

I used to set on some hills....essentially regular TS ...no straights wider than 6.5 feet with some 1 foot of wdith added for every cone width of offset. Then when you get up to speed I would toss in a few GS gates that required some angulation or slight chirps (braking). Once speed was reduced a bit I went right back to speed building TS style gates and repeated the process. This is good for hills that aren't quite steep enough for GS....but allows you a taste of GS even if it has to be on a TS deck.

It also makes for good photos because you can angulate a lot more.

Andy Bittner · Post by **Andy Bittner** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 3:09 am

Maybe soon the word "hybrid" will just go away. Eventually, the whole issue should just fade away as people realize that course variety is reallly the "spice" of our game. After about 24 years of RARELY skating anyone elses courses (3 or 4 times in 24 years) other than my own, I can't tell you how much more I've learned about course setting and my own riding abilities in the past two to three years, being routinely exposed to other people's ideas of entertaining slalom fun.

On the point of needing an opening course section of relatively tight, relatively straight, relatively rhythmic cones... I think it is all a matter of the starting method being used, i.e. box, push, no-push, lunge, ramp, gate, pulls, no-pulls, etc. When this whole slalom re-birth started, I was always putting that straight, tight, rhythmic section on the beginning of my courses, because I'd been almost exclusively using a restricted, lunging, box-type start for all of those preceding 24 years. I tend to like courses and racing where the first necessity in any race is to physically bring oneself up to the proper speed for the course to come by pumping up the speed. It may only be one or two pumps or cones on a steeper hill, or much more on a shallower hill, but I never really considered pushing into a course full-blast as much fun as what I was doing. Ramps either... So, eventually, my coursesetting style came to include that beginning rhythm section.

Ramp starts and multi-push starts have obviously changed the equation for me somewhat. If I'm setting a course where I know we can be pushing into it at full speed, I feel much less restricted in terms of what I feel I "must" do with the first part of the course.

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