Status handling for limited entry races

[Richy Carrasco]

Rateing all the races should have one factor to consider . Limited entry field could be rated lower for the reason of being shut out due to fairness to all the racers . There could be a day that if a certain racer tried to make it to that race and ended up with no opportunity to participate, He or she could not play the cone rating game and lose out with no chance of gaining points for that weekend.

My point is races with a cap on the # of racers allowed to enter this should be considered.

[Pat Chewning]

Richy, you make a good point about limited-entry contests. They do provide the opportunity for unfair advantage, merely by who is allowed to enter and who is not allowed.

But on the other hand, it is unreasonable to expect that some of the largest events should accomodate multi-hundreds of contestants. It is just not practical to run events this large, and it has the potential to shut down the whole event.

If there were an event that needed to limit the # of contestants, this is what I would look for (my personal opinion, not an ISSA decision, needs further discussion):

1) Do not limit the # of PROS who can attend. Does not make sense.

2) You can limit the event to AMATEURS only. Or PROS only.

3) When you need to limit the # of amateur racers, the following would be acceptable

A) Limit by 1st-come 1st-served (by official signup, with fee payment)
B) Allocation of certain # of entry positions for

i) The X number of top-ranking Amateurs (top ISSA ranking)
ii) X number of international competitors (or cross-continent competitors)

4) The following would not be permitted as criteria for limiting entry:

A) Attendance of a prior event.
B) Member of a certain team or sponsorship
C) Gender, national-origin, race, ....... all of that "protected status" stuff.

Do you think these would make it fair enough, yet still allow a contest organizer to limit the entry so the race is manageable?

But still, if a contest organizer were to limit the # of competitors to a small number, it could never achieve a large race status.

[Claude Regnier]

This is a tough one.

3 years ago the Dovercourt race had just under 20 competitiors, then we hit 44 in year 2. Last year we had 69 or so attend. There were registered that had to pull out.

We had our planning meeting last night for this years race. The subject of limiting the field was brought up and I said I didn't like it but I also pointed out that time or lack of it may force us to put a cap on this years event.

Pat, thanks for adding some valuable points to the process.

[Richy Carrasco]

I have seen all the effort to put these races on and I am gratefull to all the Organizers! Hows about Max points Awarded to races , open to attendance for 3 cone or more 90 racers. The Ranking systems could also be considered in giving spots to entrants. If this be the norm , maybe a qualification for some of the other spots could be run off, Single lane would get this done quickly. Some of my pals in So Cal got shut out last season to a 3 coner and I didnt think this was fair , I know it was not the fault of the organizer but everybody was hootin about this race and it got rated high. If time restraints are a problem- Do what Donald,Lynn and Tiger did , When the division slated to Qualify was up ,you got one practice run in each lane and the race was on!

[Glenn Chapman]

Pat, I agree with most everything that has been previously stated; however as races get bigger an event organizer may want to use other events as a pre-qualifier for the main event. I have seen this done in many other venues i.e. snowboarding, marathon running, etc. The event will could be fully pre-qualified only or a predetermined # of spots saved for riders to qualify from another event or series of events. I would think that if the rules for qualifying for a particular event were clearly spelled out in the registration info and are appropriate for a the type of race (i.e. you may need to pre-qualify at a grass roots race to qualify to ride at a regional race, or you may need to qualify at a regional race to qualify at a national race...) Just something to think about.

[Pat Chewning]

Pat, I agree with most everything that has been previously stated; however as races get bigger an event organizer may want to use other events as a pre-qualifier for the main event. I have seen this done in many other venues i.e. snowboarding, marathon running, etc. The event will could be fully pre-qualified only or a predetermined # of spots saved for riders to qualify from another event or series of events. I would think that if the rules for qualifying for a particular event were clearly spelled out in the registration info and are appropriate for a the type of race (i.e. you may need to pre-qualify at a grass roots race to qualify to ride at a regional race, or you may need to qualify at a regional race to qualify at a national race...) Just something to think about.

We need to be very careful about doing this. In general, I am opposed to limiting the entry to race "A" based solely on the results from race "B". What if the racer has some very reasonable reason to miss race "B" yet needs race "A" to advance his points total? What about the racers who might be injured or have a bad day racing in "B" and are recovering or seek to improve for race "A"?

I am less opposed, but still worried about limiting the entry to race "A" based on current or past ranking. The reason for this is that we could easily put racers in a position where they cannot gain points because they don't have points..... a catch-22 similar to when you are looking for a job and they don't give you one because you don't have experience.

Another bad side effect of these methods might be to eliminate a local racer who does not travel much to other races ... now he can't even enter the race being held in his backyard! That can't help slalom grow...

This is a tricky situation that needs some further discussion. The good news is that slalom is growing to the point where races may need to limit the # of participants. Now all we have to do is figure out a method to make this fair and enjoyable for all of the participants (those in the top and really seeking points accumulation, and those who just want to race and don't care about points).

[Hans Koraeus]

Have look here...

Limitation of racers for an event

Goes something like this...

Number of allowed racers in each class (Pro/Am/Women/Juniors) are decided by the event organizer but minimum limit should be...
Major: Pro 40, Am 50 (minimum 90 racer limit)
Main: Pro 32, Am 40 (minimum 72 racer limit)
Prime: Pro 16, Am 32 (minimum 48 racer limit)

- If more racers than the limit use this to filter out racers:
1. Event Tournament Champions (Lifetime)
2. Major Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 4 years)
3. Main Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 4 years)
4. Prime Champions (Honorary, non-competing after 2 year)
5. The first 16 racers, including ties, in the previous years event
6. The first 8 racers, including ties, in the current years Majors
7. The first 4 racers, including ties, in the current years Mains
8. The first 2 racers, including ties, in the current years Primes
9. The 16 leaders on the last years Final Official American Cup
10. The 16 leaders on the last years Final Official European Cup
11. The 32 leaders on the last years Final Official World Ranking
12. The first 8 racers, including ties, in the before previous years event
13. The first 8 racers, including ties, in the previous years Majors
14. The first 4 racers, including ties, in the previous years Mains
15. The first 2 racers, including ties, in the previous years Primes
16. According to the Official World Ranking published 1 month prior to the event

[Pat Chewning]

We have our 1st controversial limited-entry ISSA sanction in Brazil where the organizer is refusing entry to a racer based on bad past experience with that racer.

The racer (evidently) qualified for the limited-entry based on his past race results, but the contest organizer is prohibiting him from attending.

Comments and background are here:
http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=5620

Any suggestions on how the ISSA might handle this (now and in the future)?

[Jack Smith]

The ISSA should have no control over who a race promoter allows to participate. I am thinking of organizing a large purse invitational event, as a race organizer I should have complete control over who is invited.

My proposed race will include only the top 32 racers in the world, how would the ISSA rate such a race?

[Pat Chewning]

The ISSA should have no control over who a race promoter allows to participate. I am thinking of organizing a large purse invitational event, as a race organizer I should have complete control over who is invited.

My proposed race will include only the top 32 racers in the world, how would the ISSA rate such a race?

Jack, are you going to use the ISSA ranking to determine who is in the top 32? If so, then the ISSA has already had some control of your list.

I agree that if you use the ISSA ranking of the top 32, you should get a sanction. But you should not be allowed to ban any of the top 32 racers for other reasons.

I agree that a race promoter WITHOUT an ISSA sanction can invite or limit whomever he wants. But if the ISSA issues a race sanction, then we (the ISSA) should be able to prohibit certain methods of limiting the entry .... or deny the sanction.

For example: What if you wanted an All-Pavel, ABEC-11-wheels only, blond hair, Californian-only race? Do you think it would be fair to the other racers for the ISSA to grant a sanction and award points for this?

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

Using the World Ranking and you won't have Dominik Kowalski (35) and George Pappas (77) at your race Jack. But Kenny Mollica (10) can participate.

I will say it again. This World Ranking don't reflect the situation now. It's an ranking which is based on old data. As you see, it's possible to be good in slalom in a very short time. Dominik and Pappas are on the wrong places. Dominik do one podest after the orther, but he's ranked on place 35. The System how it is calculated don't reflect the situation now !


J-Rad

[Vincent Berruchon]

Jrad I suppose you checked the 4 year PROs ranking
If such rules to attend to a race are used, we should definitely wonder what ranking to use.
The season and past-season rankings seems clearly the more appropriate to use as they are more up to date
Allow 32st in one of the rankings (season and 4 year..) could be possible too
but the rookies will be held out of all this aren't they? Sad...

[Vincent Berruchon]

...
I agree that if you use the ISSA ranking of the top 32, you should get a sanction. But you should not be allowed to ban any of the top 32 racers for other reasons.

I agree that a race promoter WITHOUT an ISSA sanction can invite or limit whomever he wants. But if the ISSA issues a race sanction, then we (the ISSA) should be able to prohibit certain methods of limiting the entry .... or deny the sanction.

I totally agree that you cannot deny who you want as you want, in particular if it's about personal issues.

But in case of really bad behavior and a racer who is the reason of really big troubles, we can imagine that a racer could be banned for at least a determined time. Facts have to be really clear and probably it should only effective after BOD statement?
Do we have rules talking about that yet?

Less important but it's not so fair to allow only the 32 first if they can gain more point there than the 33rd and followers. But let's say it's a little privilege that we can understand because we want to see only the best.
But what if you add wild cards? So friend of the organizer will also be there? How to handle that and still the rookie problem.


I know that some organizers want to organize big race but with no points. Doesn't mean ISSA shouldn't be involved but because of the "invitational" process.. ranking points cannot be fairly distributed.
ISSA should be part of exceptional races out of the ranking... the bad things would be that ISSA completely out of that.

[Pat Chewning]

Using the World Ranking and you won't have Dominik Kowalski (35) and George Pappas (77) at your race Jack. But Kenny Mollica (10) can participate.

I will say it again. This World Ranking don't reflect the situation now. It's an ranking which is based on old data. As you see, it's possible to be good in slalom in a very short time. Dominik and Pappas are on the wrong places. Dominik do one podest after the orther, but he's ranked on place 35. The System how it is calculated don't reflect the situation now !


J-Rad

When I look at the 2007 Pro Ranking, Dominik is 6th and Pappas is 27th -- and would be included. Kenny does not appear on the ranking. You are looking at the 4-year ranking and not the 2007 ranking.

[Jack Smith]

My plan would be to use the slalomranking.com top 32. If a racer were unable to attend, or chooses not to attend, I would move down the list to the next racer.

I would also hold a few places for racers who might have been injured, or who for other reasons might not be ranked in the top 32.

So, let's say I decide to move forward with this plan, and I am able to secure sponsorship that would create the biggest payday in slalom racing history, along with major mainstream media coverage. But due to it's invitational nature, would the ISSA grant a sanction?

And excuse my ignorance, what are the benefits of an ISSA sanction?

[Pat Chewning]

But due to it's invitational nature, would the ISSA grant a sanction?

I would think YES, the ISSA would likely grant a sanction without degrading the status due to the invitational nature.

I would also hold a few places for racers who might have been injured, or who for other reasons might not be ranked in the top 32.

This is an area that could be of concern, as it might be used inappropriately -- i.e. "other reasons" ???

And excuse my ignorance, what are the benefits of an ISSA sanction?

Benefits -- tangible: World ranking points assigned to race. Race is documented as to how it will be run. Race appears on the ISSA calendar with pointers to the sanction application (documentation of how race is to be run). Race will be run to ISSA rules (with any exceptions and deviations noted in the contest application).

Benefits -- intangible: Race is coordinated in schedule to not conflict with other ISSA races. Race has been determined to meet the criteria appropriate for the status level.

[Vincent Berruchon]

Is the sanction given by an international association that is in charge of the discipline something we can add as a benefit
so the event is recognized, it's a credibility thin

(but it's why I really don't understand why this association is virtual and not a real one but even if a lot will some partners and sponsors won't check...)

[Marion Karr]

As a promoter of both races with limited fields (Dixie Cup) and the Worlds this year (PRO/Am qualifying, I think there is a great deal to be considered here. For example, the Dixie Cup is a mix of invitation (LEGACY- those riders who attended the very first Dixie Cup in 2005 who are offered early private sign-up) and limited field (64 total men racers...youth, juniors, women, are unlimited). Because of the late date of our annual race (first weekend in November) we are not in a position to manage more than 64 racers due to our limited daylight. If we opened that field for example and changed the format to open registration and qualifying we could potentially put ourselves in a position of not being able to complete the racing on the day we run Duals (Saturday). We run single lane on both Friday and Sunday and those fields are open registration. It is only the dual lane elmination portion of our event that we are in a position where we have to limit a field. In addition, we are part of a City wide festival that closes at 5 pm and the streets are open to traffic. We do not have the opportunity to continue racing after that time due to the daylight loss and the roads being open.

I understand that those racers who are chasing points want and opportunity to compete and can be frustrated with our format but that time of year in North Carolina dictate we limit the field.

This is going to be an interesting debate...because we may find that races held late in the year may not be suitable for Mains and higher. This would be a shame.

[Wesley Tucker]

Marion,

There's no doubt the Saturday Pump Cone Fest needs limited registration. The past two years we've got done around 4:30 with the sun already behind the tall buildings. If qualifying was ever extended another hour we would defintely have the Final Four skating by street light. What's more is it must be remembered the DHB learned from their first race when registration was limited to 54 racers. After gaining the experience of running a race the field was expanded to 64 in 2006 and this year.

What I would surmise is in the future we allow limited registrations but only with specific and overriding circumstances. Such circumstances would include things like available daylight, available road closings, limited racer support (I think we could see in the near future where a race promoter could acquire accommodations for a set number of racers. Thus racers would be limited to the number of rooms at a motel) and so on.

In the future if any race sanction request comes along with the words "limited registration" or "invitational," we should certainly ask for the reasoning for such a condition.

[Dominik Kowalski]

hey jack! Why not use this ranking:

http://www.worldcupranking.com/

[Bruno Brown RIP]

Hello all, since our situation here created an odd but progressive discussion i'd like to contribute to that,explaining the experiece we're having and the reasons for it.Onthe banning fact:the racer had insulted race organizers after our first event and not only that,he tried to influence other racers to go agains us;this guy has a history of past bad behaviors and we were already aware of that but gave him the bennefit of the doubt;like any other sport we think we shouldhave standards as how a team of people with the same interests should progress for the bennefit of all;in soccer for example(we had many cases here)there wer very important players that were punished just because media found him very drunk at night partys and other scandals,others tha been punished even with yearly suspentions because they did not agree with a game result and made that public;in F1 ifa racer makes his controversial opinions public he will be suspended and even the biggest team-Mc Laren can be punished for bad behavior and so on and on;i believe this is common in theports world to have certain standars(even if the athlete involved doesn't like it)that they have to follow,as slalom is groing , problems like that will most likely happen again, we were just unfortunatebe the first ones to have them and then again opening peoples' eyes on how to react and deal with such situations in the future, so after all, this have a positive side to it.On the matter of the invitational format there'is another possibilitie when you have a huge purse event tha migth happen accoding to big sponsors taste and obligations;in the case of vert competition there's a good example of that which involves red bull:in mostly all the vert events they sponsor, sandro dias and all their top riders willhave to participate or they'll pull out the sponsorship;there's also anothe possibilitie tha could hapen when you're dealing with powerfull sponsors that it's possible;you might have to invite a"celebrity inetee just because it's the major sponsors best interest and this will cause some controversy for sure...i hope i'm helping somehow here as we all trying to deal with future posiibilities and how to wor with them in the best possible way...

[Bruno Brown RIP]

Another example would be: on our first contest, the Billabong group was supposed to sponsor the event with their skateboard brand "element" but pulled out because none of their sponsored skaters (mostly street rats) would compete; pretty much the same thing happened to Nike except they we're going to make their sponsored skaters compete because of contract rules (or they'd be kicked out of the team). This caused a lot of controversy and Nike ended up just giving us a few pairs of shoes for the swag bag.