[2008] Prizes At The Gorge Games, Feedback, Complaints,

Greg Fadell · Post by **Greg Fadell** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:19 pm

Since the ISSA has the power to decide that Hood is the World Championships, can they also see to it that the racers who did not receive all their prize money from last years Hood River Race get credit toward this years "World Championships" entry fee.......

Ed note: Topic split into two by WT, Feb 2009 /Jani

Greg Fadell · Post by **Greg Fadell** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:25 pm

Interesting..............................................................

Oh, I forgot........... with the ISSA - "fairness" needs a committee vote.........

I guess I'll wait for the Elders to convene and make an official decision......

Don't forget to be "delicate" and not piss anyone off..........

Oops...... to late.......

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:59 pm

Let me just say this. I've been on the ISSA Board Of Directors since its inception in 2006. No one (except maybe Jani) pays attention to this forum more than me. As a Board Administrator I make it a point to read just about every highlighted topic.

So, to put it succinctly I pay attention to this forum. I make it a point to read Silverfish and about a half dozen other skate sites where slalom is an available topic.

A week ago AFTER the sanction for the World's was award to Oregon is the FIRST TIME I've heard of any problem from last year's contest. Nary a whisper of protest, concern, questions or consternation over the prizes. I just did a search on here for the words "Gorge" "Hood" "Oregon" "prize" "money" and any other combination imaginable. Nothing until just this past week. Then I hear there were problems in Germany over prize money back in 2007. What was reported over the issue?

So, let me ask a question: how is anything supposed to get done if nothing is said or reported?

Greg Fadell · Post by **Greg Fadell** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:14 pm

Exactly my point in last post.....
I know you (ISSA) members/ board of directors look at this site daily.....

The fact is no one from the ISSA even bothered to say..... "Yes, No, or good point we will look into that........"

Instead there is no reply....... why is that...... cause you have to make a flurry of calls just to "ADDRESS" a simple question........

Plus, it also addresses the fact that the ISSA is WAY OUT OF TOUCH if you have no idea what happens at or after a major race........ just ask any "traveling active pro" ...... there are no secret!!!!!!

As individuals,,,,, the people who make up the ISSA - you know how I feel about you personally from interaction.......

As a group, my interaction with you is that the ISSA sets up EXPECTATIONS by awarding sanctions to races and then blames others for not telling you what's wrong.....

So it's my fault!!!!??????

Get real...... make some calls....... get input from the right people...... not just from those who "are on your committees"

Robert Sydia · Post by **Robert Sydia** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:52 pm

Wes:

Maybe it is the fact that Oregon was awarded the World's might be the reason reason why people are talking about this problem, so other racers will not be in a position that Greg is!

Greg's original post was easy to understand, especially with the sarcasm he included (excellent job!!), and to the point.

I fail to understand why everything at this site has to become a huge f*$^#@)king discussion, doesn't matter if it is a as simple as a logo, can't common sense prevail and a logical, simple decision be made by ISSA and get the issue dealt with!!

We are a small group of people who like racing skateboards around cones, nothing more - nothing less - let's just enjoy it without all the "red-tape"

My 2 cents Canadian

Rob

Rick Floyd · Post by **Rick Floyd** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:05 pm

Robert Sydia wrote:Wes:

Maybe it is the fact that Oregon was awarded the World's might be the reason reason why people are talking about this problem, so other racers will not be in a position that Greg is!

Greg's original post was easy to understand, especially with the sarcasm he included (excellent job!!), and to the point.

I fail to understand why everything at this site has to become a huge f*$^#@)king discussion, doesn't matter if it is a as simple as a logo, can't common sense prevail and a logical, simple decision be made by ISSA and get the issue dealt with!!

We are a small group of people who like racing skateboards around cones, nothing more - nothing less - let's just enjoy it without all the "red-tape"

My 2 cents Canadian

Rob

ex post facto my friend - Welcome to America!!

Ramón Königshausen · Post by **Ramón Königshausen** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:53 pm

At least you don't have to bother with flat venues.

rmn

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:04 am

coming back to gregs recent post:
as it is-or better said should be, the officials of the race should also monitor this forum,since it is issa and also official.
how come there is no reaction in any way?
is that so uninteresting or is the issa so unimportant?

coming to the next topic: issa and credibility

where is the credibility?

as it is greg got burned, he has all the right in the world to bring this forward.
is greg the only one?
time to find out for sure
will everybody walk away from this as if nothing happened?
who is in charge

and the biggest question is:
what happens next?

this could be a stepping stone for the issa

if the issa wants to appear credible to the racers eyes with all the circus that is created regarding sanctions and stuff, will it just walk away from uncomfortable questions asked?

is that the case?

we will all see what the issa is worth.

oh yes...thank you greg for being honest to the rest of the community.
not everybody choses to do so.

Greg Fadell · Post by **Greg Fadell** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:59 pm

There have been many other races that prize money has been a problem. I picked Hood to make MANY points because the ISSA has “awarded” it “their” most coveted honor of being the “Worlds.”

I am not “trying” to pick on Gareth or anybody else! What I am trying to do is make points about the relevancy of the ISSA and what it chooses to do and not to do. Bottom line is Gareth did nothing in my eyes to get back to me after myself and others tried contacting him about the screwed up checks WE (as in not just me) got in the mail.

Let’s start at the beginning…..

I didn’t come to this site much until recently(mainly because of many of the issues that are coming up). I was contacted through a PM by Rick Floyd about my photo being possibly used in a new ISSA logo…… I’m busy, I don’t respond quickly, so JBH calls me…… That is all way cool and I am stoked those guys reached out and made efforts to contact me….
On the phone with JBH, I find out there are new members on the board of ISSA and changes are hoping to be made to make it better, etc……… So I take this opportunity to “unload” on JBH about a bunch of problems I have with the ISSA. I did this because I am frustrated and fed up with the ISSA as an “(un)organization”, and also because JBH is now on “whatever” committee or board. So unfortunately, HE is now involved with both PAST problems and FUTURE solutions! Thanks for listening JBH!
Then, it still takes me awhile to come to this, site. But when I do, I see 3 pages of discussion about a logo, which in my opinion should not be up for open debate if you want to get anything done!!!!!!!! Then there is talk about donated artwork and time, and “let’s have a contest for best design” etc. COME ON!!!!!! Seriously!!!!!!!!!!
Being that this is TOTALLY indicative about the ISSA as an organization as a whole, I take the opportunity to use SARCASM to make relevant some issues!!!!!!!
From that two threads start in different locations about the prize money issue that I raised with my sarcasm…… I did not start these…… others “picked up” where I left off for whatever reason……. Donald started a straight to the point thread I only saw once because it was taken down by the ISSA……. Lavin starts the second……… it was more “PC” then Donald’s and stays up. Stride make a good point, Floyd makes a joke, and Ramon states facts about how he had a problem in Hannover……. yet no post from ISSA addressing the issue……… interesting……. When it comes to logos let’s talk for days, weeks, months…… Private Message relevant people, and make calls……… but for this……….. NOTHING!!!!!
Then……. I see a post from Fluitt about HOOD……… I now take this opportunity to simply ask ONE straight forward non sarcastic question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To which there is no reply for a day…… I find this “interesting” because it is a simple question that could be answered with a yes, no, or hey, sorry to hear their might have been a problem, we will look into it and make sure to resolve any issue with the organizer WE sanctioned. That type of answer does not take a committee, board, or organizations to make……..
So now, I again us sarcasm to make this very point. To witch Tucker reply’s with frustration!!!!! He states that he “PAYS” attention to the form like a hawk as well as other forums and sites….. yet this is the first time he has heard of problems with prize money. And, he implies that this all should have been brought up sooner.

This now opens up for me a can of worms……

1) ISSA “people” have seen my post and chose not to comment on such a basic matter that ONLY has one REAL answer, so chiming in is a safe bet for those “playing politics” number

2) In Tuckers eyes and I’m sure it can be applied to other memebers of the ISSA – If it doesn’t happen on the WEB , it never happened !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think about that…… REALY think about that!!!!!!

3) No one tries to Private Message me, call me, email me, write me a letter, or text me!!!!!!!! When it comes to a LOGO….. try to get a hold of Greg……. When it comes to prize money………????????????????????????????????????????

4) Don’t blame me for not making you aware of things that happen at “YOUR” sanctioned race!!!!!!!!! If the ISSA doesn’t know what’s happening on and off the hill at a race, what is their “EFFECTIVENESS”

I’m on the same damn hill as everyone else…. Those in the ISSA who are blind to what goes on – OPEN YOUR EYES……… Those in the ISSA who know what’s going on (and I know some of you do) OPEN YOUR MOUTH. Don’t act like SS.com is some court document!! In which the loop hole is to not “put it in writing” so as not to admit and have to deal with the situation…….. I am sure there are many ISSA members who are aware of the HOOD check debacle, that are hiding behind the fact that it’s not “in print” so to speak………

And even if you don’t agree with my points…… or never admit to “knowing”……… you still fall into proving my biggest point of all –
IF THE ISSA IS UNAWARE OF WHAT REALLY GOES ON WITH A RACE THEY SANCTION – WHAT GOOD ARE THEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It’s not the money folks……… it’s the measage!!!

It’s the fact that you’re out of touch!!!!!!!

“Passion” doesn’t cover for misguided rules and sanctions and lack of follow through ultimately affect others!

For better or worse, what you do in no small way affects what I like to do……… Unfortunately there is more of the “worse” going on than the “better”

Again…… Hood is only one race of many of your “Sanctions” that exemplify the problems stated here…… there are many others…….. but maybe it’s safer not to ask and put the burden on me to have to put it on the web before we bring it up for a vote…….

Not getting stated or unstated prize money, is only one aspect of prize money that is a problem……. Let’s talk about what BS is was that the Women and Masters got huge chucks of PRIZE MONEY even though they barely had enough competitors to fill a podium……. No…… maybe it’s safer to not upset the Women and the Masters and just piss off the Pro’s…….

Let’s talk about how the ISSA and HOOD did more to dismantle the Pro Division than any other race before through their misguided direction……. No it’s safer to not look at reality and pat everyone on the back for their Passion and Donated time.

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:41 pm

Donald started a straight to the point thread I only saw once because it was taken down by the ISSA

It's in the ISSA members only topic. Maybe it was moved there. I don't know. But Lavin started another thread on the topic in Random, and now it's here in the Worlds topic also. Just wanted to let you all know it wasn't deleted at least. It would have been better to have it all in one place, but it's kind of hard work to cut/paste/move it all now. So let's wait until the storm is over and then I might deal with it.

Please note, I'm just doing admin style work on this site. I'm not on the board.

I personally find it regrettable that organizers don't try harder (harder means, whatever means) to make sure their events pay out the right prize money. For me there are no excuses. You've announced it, it's your event - you'd better stick to your promises.

So far, this has not been part of the iSSA's responsability, but it's a great opportunity to make it part of that responsability. The event sanctioning is meant to help skaters select events that are worthwhile. The ISSA can't police it all (there's a few 1000 other items that can fail in any event), but it can respond with sanctions in the sanctioning process.

/Jani

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:43 pm

Donald asked the topic be moved to the ISSA MEMBERS ONLY forum. It's a forum on this website a user cannot see unless a member. I moved it forthwith per his request.

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:36 pm

i asked to move it,that's right.
but also i was expecting the "right" people to make their move on the target.
this didn't happen yet.
i really think that this discussion is going to devalue whatever "ISSA" is supposed to stand for,now and in the future

the people in charge(whoever that might be right now) have to act now
there is no time for debates,polls,discussions.

i organized quite a few races,i also did the worlds in brixlegg.

i always! paid everyone out,always!

and i do have absolutely no respect to what happened to greg and a select group of racers.

and yes the organizer in question besmears the image of that clean area in the sport without a doubt.

you may find my words hard,this will happen for sure,but in the end rest assured and be glad we don't have that discussion eye to eye,it would be way worse than my carefully selected words here-and that for a reason.
wesley,no ill will against you,but please wait before you post again,there are others that should post now!

Ramón Königshausen · Post by **Ramón Königshausen** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:49 pm

I will, as a status marshal for Europe, take last year's sanction and event turnouts into consideration. Just give me time until Tuesday.

We will openly talk about the event of last year. Who sticked to their sanctions and who didn't. Opinions will be more than welcome.

rmn

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:51 pm

oh i forgot something from last year here in europe:
dominik,ramon,klangster-all 3 showed some balls when it came to cancelling a venue which seemed to have a bad standing from the organizer.

are the european balls bigger than the american?

Rick Stanziale · Post by **Rick Stanziale** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:43 pm

Dave Gale · Post by **Dave Gale** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:47 pm

Well sung Rick

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:09 am

dear all:
i find it rather discouraging that only jonathan is the person who tries to touch the subject as a contest/event coordinator in charge.
i would love to have seen(please note: past tense) the thoughts of the other two elected persons who are in charge right now.
i understand that there are more important issues to each elected individuals life than what transpires here.
on the other hand i also understand that any person that volunteers is a grown up and certainly responsible for his actions and decisions and most importantly commitments made to the community.

right now this topic is bound to fade away as everybody involved in this rather uncomfortable task is walking away or even better refusing to have seen it or knowing about it.

it is sad to that this is the actual state the issa seems to be in.

also sad that i am contantly bumping this to see any progress.
stanziale:you are as stupid as can be,maybe you didn't realize it yet,hopefullyyou will some day.your only contributions to the whole dealio are stupid internet posts or trolling,your favorite game.
dave gale:what a very very stupid and ingnorant reply,dimwit alert#2
marty:so you don't care at all,right?

maybe you guys need to get burned here and there to change your approach to the whole thing.
any big race needs big names
so the big names decide not to come anymore
is the race still big?
does it still have the value?
does any other first place earned have the value or credibility?
definitely not.

this is a major step to destroy the sport,just in case you didn't notice that yet.

you guys really should wake up
contests are not about meeting and greeting and hanging out and bbqing for some people.
luckily there are a few that have a different sight of things.

you are going to loose those sooner or later,no lets say sooner,that's reality.

what is this?
an organizer burns people and nobody cares?

at least the folks should get the money they won

don't you think so?

oh no wait...
it didn't happen to you,so why should you care?
here's a nice message board to post some stuff and talk about some "races".
you could care less,right?
and you can also tell me what a fucked up idiot i am to try and talk reason.

this is so unbelievable what's happening here,i really can't believe this at all.

Joe Iacovelli · Post by **Joe Iacovelli** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:53 pm

Donald,

I am no longer on the board. I got frustrated when we could not respond to some other controversy and gave up. That is my fault. Instead of playing politics, I did my own things to try and make our sport better, but maybe I should have tried to keep my vote.

Very often I don't speak up or complain because I don't know how to fix what is wrong or think maybe I am the only one who thinks it is wrong. I agree with you here, but don't know the solution, and so have been silent.

So let me ask you. What do you suggest? How can we fix this?

I think it is hard for Gary or whoever made the decision, because sometimes it is better to make a decision, to act instead of waiting. Any decision on where to hold the worlds brings criticism. I wish they were closer so it did not cost so much to travel, but that's how it goes.

I very much agree with you though that this issue needs to adressed, resolved, and retired. I for one don't have a good feeling about supporting a race that did not meet it's promises last year. But I think that will be more sad for me and my son, as we will miss the race more than the race will miss us.

So let me ask you again Donald, if you were in charge, what would you do?

Joe

Guillaume Saint-Criq · Post by **Guillaume Saint-Criq** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:03 pm

I saw 2 issues in this topic
- what can ISSA do about last year unpaid prize money?
- who in the ISSA decide about giving the Worlds status to that event this year?

Maybe answer for #1 is in #2

Dave Gale · Post by **Dave Gale** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:27 pm

Donald,
I merely pointed out Rick's view on this topic at hand was "The beat goes on" . Meaning that somethings seem to never change here. These sort of debates have been amd always will be in existance, until the ISSA moves in a manner to oversee events they sanction.

An insulting response from atop your high horse to anyone who disagrees with your opinion, only reflects that. Somethings never change. Holding the most important race of the year, at a venue that is both uneasy and expensive to travel to and finding accomodations can be both difficult and expensive isn't the best way to get racers from around the world to attend. Grantedm, my agreement with Rick's post may not be a productive one to resolve the issues ay hand, but things never seem to change. I think JBH is the man to change that but again, how much time and effort can one man commit to a cause when, when no-one seems to aide in the process.

Fadell pointed out some problems that he has had in the past, and hopefully they can be moved on to remedy them.

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:33 pm

Let me sum this up:

An undetermined number of pro skaters did not get prize money last year at Hood. Greg Fadell is the only one known so far.

Hood was held last year in July.

In November Pat Chewning put forth an application for Hood to host the 2009 Worlds.

Marcus Rietema made mention in December of Australia hosting the Worlds in conjunction with an IGSA event

Nothing happened between then at the end of January.

On February 3 Gary Fluitt, the North America Contest Coordinator, place Hood before the Board Of Directors to vote for the Worlds. The vote passed 4-0. Three Board members did not vote. However, with a 7-member board 4 for yes passed the motion no matter what.

On February 10 Gary announced that Hood was awarded the worlds.

On February 11 Greg Fadell asks if last year's money winners who got none could get credit for their entry fee.

On the 12th I posted that the money issue from last year was news to me.

Later that day I was told I was "out of touch" because I knew nothing of this. I guess I'm supposed to start polling every skater after a race and ask, "how'd it go?" Or am I just supposed to ask the ones who have a problem? And how am I supposed to know which ones those are?

The next question: now what? So far the only REAL question is whether or not Greg has to pay a registration fee. I'll do what I can to get an answer.

Although it's sometimes hard for me to decypher Donald's intentions it would appear he thinks this money issue will lead to the end of slalom skateboard racing. I can't see where he has any proposal for a solution.

So, do I have it straight? Am I missing anything?

Christopher Bara · Post by **Christopher Bara** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:00 pm

....you pretty much missed the entire point......read what was written....assume nothing

Joe Iacovelli · Post by **Joe Iacovelli** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:28 pm

Wesley,

I value Greg's input here. He is a fast racer and podium contender, but an outsider at keyboard racing. I also believe he has a legitimate gripe. Do you disagree?

Where are the organizers of Hood? If this was the Farm or Antrim, I would already have explained my side of the story. This is the marquee event for the ISSA. If you propose to host the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS, you should be able to explain what happened at last years race.

Joe

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:37 pm

Joe,

We asked Pat. He referred it to Gareth.

So the next step is to find out Gareth's intentions in response to Greg's concerns. Specifically, Greg wants to know if his registration fee is already paid. Since Gary is on Gareth's team I am assuming Fluitt has some way of discussing this with the race organizer.

I will say this. Another aspect to all this that's been raised is the involvement of the Gorge Games organizers. I'm trying to find out their involvement and what they had to do with the prize money. Somehow the skateboard race organizers and the Gorge Games organizers were both part of the prize money issue. I do know over $10,000 in total prize money was advertised but I have no idea how much (if any) was awarded. I also don't know where the $10,000 was supposed to come from. I don't know if there was $10,000 and where it did go if not to Greg and other podium skaters. If there wasn't $10,000 to award I don't know why the Gorge Games and Hood Race organizers didn't announce this before the race started. Until this past week I never knew there was an issue. It's been four days (Feb 11) since this was first brough up. I apologize I haven't produced any answers quicker.

Are there any other skaters this issue concerns? I don't know. I've heard from no one else.

And Chris, you're right.

What is the point I missed? Just let me know what I missed.

Christopher Bara · Post by **Christopher Bara** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:41 pm

If its unclear still.......

It's not about the money necessarily...it's about the system....

I think the point it, races are granted certain standings, but there's no follow up to insure they did their job....there's no feedback....there's no accountability...unless people come on line with grips, then nobody would know WHAT happened that may need looking into...

The point is that after bringing his issue to this forum, nobody STILL got it...and if fact it was generally disregarded...

The point is that organizers SHOULD make a profit for their work and they SHOULD be held accountable to deliver what was promised....in paying them, it removes the "be thankful he pitched in and volunteered" mentality that plagues this sport.

The point is the award distribution is just stupid already....When there are barely enough women to make a podium, and very few people racing in Masters, why is the cash (of promise of cash) distributed equitably....
The women can hold their own, in either pro or open....the fact is there's just not enough women in the sport to justify a womens bracket...why is there even one there?....and why is there so much cash in the masters bracket, especially if the fastest masters are racing in pro?

The point is the ISSA board deliberates things that they should just DECIDE on...face it folks, democracy is highly overated when running a business...and parts of this are a business....do you REALLY need a full page of BS for a logo?...i mean really...

The point is that for all the input the ISSA gives on the frontside, there's little if any on the follow up.

The point is that nobody from the ISSA even KNEW about the cash fiasco at Hood last year....WHY DIDNT YOU?....why did a skater have to bring it up?...why arent you contacting the organizers of that race and following up now instead of bu!!shitting around on this site?

Jesus...there's a bunch of points made here....i got all that just by READING it....and i'm probably not getting it all here either...

Christopher Bara · Post by **Christopher Bara** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:54 pm

If i may....and these are just opinions....i barely get involved with any racing anymore because of all the bs anyway, but here you go...

The sport has changed in demographics a great deal...yet the same people podium in the same brackets all the time...and the age span has gotten progressively wider in all brackets...
Just like a business, you have to identify your growth opportunities...

Break up brackets by age...Under 25,... 25-35, ...35-45, ...45 and older......for that matter keep it all open, do we really need pro and am still?....maybe

At least by bracketing differently you may mix things up a bit......it's pretty dumb though, putting a guy in his 40's next to a kid in his teens...that wouldnt happen in any other sport for obvious reasons..

The womens division?...please....it was a valiant effort, but it never worked out..admit it and move on...in this sport, women can compete on a level field with men....take advantage of that rare option...on the hill, gender doesnt matter ...how many sports can make that claim?

PAY THE ORGANIZERS!! ..even if its just a couple bucks per entrant...it's allot of work..and people that get paid can be held accountable for what goes on much more than if they were not...you want quality?...pay for it...

Pro's should get a larger cash pool...they are what draws the largest crowd..they're the best in the biz....they dont get schwag....they dont collect checks from sponsors...so pay them...

GET FEEDBACK AFTER RACES!!...and not in an open forum...give people a place to answer certain set questions, along with a comments section..dont let them do it annonymously (sp?)...and if there is something of concern that comes up, address it...dont promise people a response, especially in a public forum.

Take a look at DH...they're booming...why?..what are they doing that slalom is not?

Look at other forms of racekeeping...such as Jacks format last year...it peeked interest...new is sometimes a good thing...

Dont promote Schwag giving...why are we promoting manufacturers to give stuff away to people who already have gear or can afford their own...it's not good for business in a small marketplace...instead, perhaps a little gear to new skaters, but if manufacturers want to promote a race, have them do it in another form....Gatoraide tents....lunch....something for the party....some way they can promote their name, not by giving skate stuff away, but by having it on a banner for EVERYBODY to see, not just the skaters who know who they are...

Just a few thoughts........just a few of the things that really turned me off this past year

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:57 pm

OK.

Another timeline:

Step 1: Jani started the ISSA again
Step 2: Corky started the world ranking and race sanctioning system
Step 3: Corky was awarding races statuses on his own volition
Step 4: Racers wanted more control over sanction
Step 5: ISSA elected its first Board in 2006
Step 6: First action of the Board was implementing the new sanction process for races
Step 7: ISSA updates and adopts new race rules

So now Step 8 is the need for the ISSA to do followup of the races where sanctions are granted?

OK.

Someone propose HOW. I'm all ears.

(As of where this is right now I would say this needs to be in the ISSA Members forum or starting a new topic. This is getting far and away from a race in Oregon this July.)

Christopher Bara · Post by **Christopher Bara** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:07 pm

it's simple....you've got a whole friggin website to work with....come up with some kind of feedback...everybody has had a feedback done on them at some point in their career...problem here is everything is in the open...it doesnt have to be....let the concerns go to the board...we dont ALL have to start witch hunting....if people could take 5 minutes on line to tell you how the race was, youd know...and you'd know if it's worthy of another race, or if items have to be addressed first...

One last thing
You had some real quality guys NOT organizing races now that used to....Barker....Mollica...Hacket...Karr....maybe find out why theyre not doing it anymore.....some reasons may be simple...some may be new to you....but if i was doing business with shops in my line of work, and they didnt want to work with me anymore...i'd like to know what turned them off, if anything....i'd at least ask...

Just like with the races themselves.......ask.......dont assume

By the way, your timeline is very pretty...but it really isnt too involved..the ISSA was formed..it came up with baseline rules...and acts as the governing body for what races get what status.......

and that's it.....

Cat Young · Post by **Cat Young** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:15 pm

I had a question about my 1099, so I logged on to the Gorge Games website & tried to call..... the phone number had been changed. In case anyone wants to call, the the new number is 503-719-5872.
I spoke with a guy by the name of Joshua. He didn't know much about anything, but did tell me he paid out the money to the skaters from the numbers Wally had given him.

Mike Ohm · Post by **Mike Ohm** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:16 pm

edited

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:08 pm

so...
a few things,my opinion:
#1 greg needs to get paid asap and an official excuse is due
#2 greg is not the only racer by the way,the organizer in question should know this
#3 if the organizer doesn't react at all,he should not be awarded the worlds title for this year, for me that would be the only solution tolerable in order to keep this whole thing legit.
#4 wesley tucker is the most active person on the board, even though you are totally different from the way i tick i have to admit that i absolutely honor your involvement.
it is sad to see that you are the only one who cares, apart from jbh who brought himself into this delicate discussion too.
#5 every race has an organizer who applies for a status, this is no anonymous person,so the guy who applied for this years sanction at hood should be the same guy that did it last year.
who is this person?
when i read all that crapola that seems to be going around hood and who did what when and why i do have high doubts about the credibility of the race in general.
each business has one owner,one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
who is this person and why doesn't he choose to reply openly to this?
#6 baras posts sum it up so nicely, can't add a bit too it
#7 dave gale, the blues goes on, i am not sitting on a high horse, i am absolutely right in what i'm saying besides that, so no need for you to criticise me, thanks for your valid contribution anyway.
#8 as you know greg is on gog-so he's team and yes i consider greg as a friend too.
whenever somebody tries to burn anybody i call team or friend, i will be on the case and i will inflict as much harm as possible to that person, yes that's right. you will find me being one of the biggest assholes you ever met and i won't back off a bit.
again greg is not the only one....
this makes the situation even worse.
all i expect is a fair treatment, nothing more nothing less.

Ramón Königshausen · Post by **Ramón Königshausen** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:15 pm

Christopher Bara wrote: GET FEEDBACK AFTER RACES!!...and not in an open forum...give people a place to answer certain set questions, along with a comments section..dont let them do it annonymously (sp?)...and if there is something of concern that comes up, address it...dont promise people a response, especially in a public forum.

Take a look at DH...they're booming...why?..what are they doing that slalom is not?

Yeah, there you go! At our race last year I printed feedback sheets for all the racers. We got back tons of feedbacks. The form still exists, I can put it online if you want!

Plus I will look into last year's euro races/sanctions and decide if they fulfilled the sanctions.

rmn

Dave Gale · Post by **Dave Gale** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:23 pm

A simple, yet effective way to insure that suitable pay-off etc.. could be a standard form for each sanctioned race that would be filled out by the organizer (10 minutes time) Listing the placings and awards. This form would have the podium placers names and $$ earned. With a line for the recipient to endorse with his/her signature upon receipt of winnings. It may not be fool proof, but I think it would be efficient.

Marcus Seyffarth · Post by **Marcus Seyffarth** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:08 pm

Donald Campbell wrote: #5 every race has an organizer who applies for a status,this is no anonymous person,so the guy who applied for this years sanction at hood should be the same guy that did it last year.
who is this person?

Its all in the application. Read it here:
http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/ISSA/ ... -JUL18.pdf

I don't think I'm coming. Sorry. Haven't got the time or the money (mid july?, expensive resort?). Also I'm afraid of going to Hood, I have spent far more time windsurfing than skateboarding and sending me to Hood is like sending Wu Tang to Amsterdam.

Marcus Rietema · Post by **Marcus Rietema** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:16 pm

On the subject of the World's and unpaid prize money, the organizers have no excuse. Australia would have been an incredible event as the World's but unfortunately there is only one course available and to try and share it for five days between downhill and slalom would have proven extremely difficult. With Australia out of the running, Hood River was the only event in contention. No other event even submitted an application... I was unaware of problems with unpaid prize money. I feel that the organizers need to make arrangements within the next ten days to pay back any unpaid prize money. If they fail to come up with a payment plan we should revoke the worlds and reopen the application process to find a replacement event.

Christopher Bara · Post by **Christopher Bara** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:27 pm

It's a bit unfortunate that Hood is getting all the shots for what happened last year...let be clear about something though..it isnt just Hood....

There have been many well known cases where trophies were never delivered....cash outs were less than advertised and promised and award certificates were never sent...

This is not a one time circumstance, it's rather common...THAT's what the ISSA has got to be aware of as it grants race status's for upcoming years...that should be a determining factor in what events get the nod.....

In my opinion

Marcus Rietema · Post by **Marcus Rietema** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:49 pm

Christopher Bara wrote:It's a bit unfortunate that Hood is getting all the shots for what happened last year...let be clear about something though..it isnt just Hood....

There have been many well known cases where trophies were never delivered....cash outs were less than advertised and promised and award certificates were never sent...

This is not a one time circumstance, it's rather common...THAT's what the ISSA has got to be aware of as it grants race status's for upcoming years...that should be a determining factor in what events get the nod.....

In my opinion

There is no way for me to know the details of what events in the past haven't paid prizes and awards as promised. If anyone has not been paid prize money and/or awards that were promised, please send me a PM or an email to rietema_m@yahoo.com so I can create a comprehensive list of the deadbeat organizers. I will then contact the alleged offenders to get their side of the story and hopefully come up with a solution. If we are unable to resolve the situation, I will publish a list on this site that will hopefully shame the offenders into making good on their debts. It will also be a valuable resource for the ISSA as we award race sanctions in the future.

George pappas · Post by **George pappas** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:52 pm

I won thirteen hundred dollars at the gorge games. You all raised thelve hundred to send me to represent the USA in Sweden,I returned home to a check for one hundred dollars as my winnings for the gorge games. You do the math. Cool huh?

I spent alot of time contacting Wally and the Gorge games organizers to no avail. Another top finishing Pro was over paid, as was Gib Lewis. Gib gave me three hundred bucks (the amount he was over paid) at the Dixie cup, Bringing my total purse to 400 smackers. Thanks Gib!!!

This sport, and everyone in it has been very good to me. I am fortunate to have the sponsors and friends I have. I am happy to let bygones be bygones and if the rest of the prize money resurfaces put my portion into the next broke racer on his quest for the gold.
I am confident that this will all get worked out and that hood will be a great venue.

And I am keeping my fingers crossed to see a quantum leap in difficulty of the pro class G.S. venue and faster faster faster longer longer longer steeper steepper steeper pro class Hibrid and slalom. PROGRESSION

Cat Young · Post by **Cat Young** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:27 am

I do remember over-hearing Gib telling talking about being over-paid & he had given it to someone that was under-paid. But it kind of went in one ear and out the other. I had no idea just how many people were affected by this blunder.

Gib is paying taxes on that money, not that it amounts to much I bet , but to give it to someone who was not paid enough........ that's just the kind of guy he is.

To know that allegedly, there was a pro that received too much money, (and possibly has not come forward..... at least to the Gorge Games representatives)......well, that's just wrong on so many levels, especially now that we are finding out that there is more than 1 person who was under-paid.
I hope this isn't the case.

I hope this mess gets worked out so we can move forward.

Jonathan Harms · Post by **Jonathan Harms** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:53 am

Wow, I don't log in for one day and all Hell (and Fadell) breaks loose!

Thank you all for airing your honest opinions.

As one of your--yes, YOUR--elected representatives on the ISSA board, let me assure everyone that we are actually trying to address all these concerns.

I can't respond to all of the things that have been posted over the last few days. I can only hope that in the weeks to come, people will start to see the results of some of the efforts I mentioned above.

Who said slalom was boring?

Gary Fluitt · Post by **Gary Fluitt** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:08 am

Trying to get to the bottom of the prize moey issues from Hood last year. Gorge Games LLC screwed up the payouts to the racers, which though inexcusable, I think is going to be hard to fix. They (Gorge Games LLC) were given Dan's spreadsheets, by way of Wally, with very clear final results upon which to write the checks. As previously mentioned they over paid some pros, under paid others, and completely stiffed a few. I don't know how you could not pay Pappas, and pay others below him in the final standings.

I just tried to call GG LLC to discuss it with them (at 9PM MT, expecting to get a message machine) and it's somebody's home line. This guy Joshua has no idea if GG is going on in summer 2009. Sounds like maybe he got burned too? Given that it's February and there is no mention of a Summer 2009 Gorge Games, I reckon the corporation is belly up. But who knows, maybe they're just looking for summer sponsors and they're going to resurface. But I seriously doubt that.

This sucks for those racers that traveled out to Oregon and paid their entry fee to get stiffed by Gorge Games LLC only to have their prize money go to someone else. Gareth is going to try to dig into this, but I suspect he'll be pounding sand. Gareth will credit entry fee to any racer who didn't get paid what they were promised. Assuming Gorge Games Corp. will not be involved in the event this year, checks can be written on the hill, as has happened in years past at Hood, and other venues. Having been on the podium at Hood a once myself and being paid in the park next to the TS start, I can tell you the Cascade Slalom Association runs a top notch event. The fact that an event corporation held the prize purse, and then screwed up the paychecks is a bummer for everyone.

Thanks for those of you who've offered constructive criticism on what we can all be doing to improve the sport. I especially like Bara's actual suggestions. Stop pestering starving manufactures for schwag. Organizers have to start getting paid to put on races or we're going to all burn out and go away (most already have). You all want us to be professionals but you don't want to pay for it. I think this is the single biggest issue we need to deal with as an organization - figure out a way to make races easier to put on, more fun to run, and more profitable to put on for the organizers. I'm not saying we need to make a living, but we do need to make it worth doing. Without races, we don't have a sport. Race organizers get nothing but bitching and moaning from racers for the most part. Sure there is the post race after glow "thanks a lot" poses, but a year later you hear gripes about how the GS wasn't fast enough, or the tight was too tight. Want to know a great way to kill the sport? Anonymously bitch about the race you didn't do well at. That's why I stopped putting on races. I can't afford to put 3 or 4 grand up every time I want to put on a race, and hope that entry fees cover expenses, and my sponsors don't squelch on what is going to be the prize money (and my wife doesn't leave me cause I'm putting all this time into it). Those very very few of you who've put on a legit race with permits and insurance and thousands in prize money, know exactly what I'm talking about. It is of very limited return on your investment, no mater how you chose to measure that return.

That's why there was exactly ONE request for a World Championships in the U.S. this year, by the guys in the Cascades. Total organizer burnout.

I think we need to raise the cost of entry fees, to fully cover expenses and stop trying to run these events on shoe strings. I think entry fees ought to be like they are in other sports. Hell I'm going to pay $250 to be in one discipline of the US Snowboard Nationals Boardercross. One event! With zero prize money! Time for us to buck up or get out. I'm just saying, we've been racing on the cheap for a decade, and we're paying for it. Some great races have been retired. I'm thankful for those who deal with this shit and are willing to put one on with all their imperfections.

Daniel Gesmer · Post by **Daniel Gesmer** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:16 am

In private dialogs among the ISSA Board, I lobbied to withhold Worlds sanctioning until all questions were resolved regarding Gorge Games payouts.

The Board was pressured to make a decision before this issue could be thoroughly addressed. And so here we are…

If you don't see everyone on the Board making frequent posts on the ISSA forums, it does not mean that we're doing nothing. We're doing our best to dig into this and sort it out. (See Gary Fluitt's informative post above.)

Karl Floitgraf · Post by **Karl Floitgraf** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:23 am

Not that it's as much of a big deal as serious money issues but I was kinda bummed at the end of Hood because no medals were passed out for Hybrid and Tight. I just missed the podium on the GS and they did a prize ceremony on the hill and the podium got gorge games medals. On sunday at the skate prize ceremony the organizers said medals would be passed out at the gorge games prize ceremony and when I got there I was told I should have received it at the skate prize ceremony. Racing as an AM you aren't racing for cash but for experience and having a medal or a trophy is really nice. I hope this issue is dealt with for this year so that all the people on the podium get a trophy or a medal (if one is promised).

Marcus Rietema · Post by **Marcus Rietema** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:32 am

Gary, Thank you for your detailed post and your efforts to get to the bottom of this situation. I am hopeful that things can be sorted out and well organized, professional world championship event will be organized in Hood River.

Judy Harris · Post by **Judy Harris** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:39 pm

Thank you to Gary F. for chasing this down and to Gareth for trying to make it right after the fact.

I too tried to reach Josh from the Gorge Games. I did speak with last year's marketing group that ran the Gorge Games and I am not sure where blame lies between Josh and the marketing group. Suffice it to say that I don't think we will see any satisfaction from either and I think it's fair to say that had last year's event been held separate from Gorge Games, we would not be having these issues. Who could blame Gareth for throwing in with one of the biggest events of the summer? It looked like an awesome opportunity for big prize money, television coverage and more. I think the slalom winners not getting paychecks is probably the tip of the iceberg for an event that is now defunct.

That said, I know that CSA will do its very best to put on a quality event. I have watched Gareth write the checks, same day, top of hill to make sure racers are paid. I didn't notice anybody complaining about any Hood River event payout prior to last year, so please give him the chance to get it done right for Worlds.

For those of you planning on attending, the nearest airport is Portland, but to try and stay there will leave you with too much of a drive. With the demise of the Gorge Games, we should have better luck with hotel rooms. I will do my best to have discounted rooms negotiated asap. If you are booking before I get that posted, you can also look at The Dalles (just down the road 15-20 minutes). The spots that seem to fill up the fastest though seem to be campsites. So if you are camping, hop online and get your campsite reserved early.

Ramón Königshausen · Post by **Ramón Königshausen** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:21 pm

Gary, thanks a lot for summing it all up and clearing it out. I did not know that the prize purse of last year's Hood River race was given away by the GG Corp. Knowing this, for me it makes it a bit better (regarding it was not quite "one of us that screwed up"). But still it should not have happened.

Gary Fluitt wrote:I think we need to raise the cost of entry fees, to fully cover expenses and stop trying to run these events on shoe strings. I think entry fees ought to be like they are in other sports. Hell I'm going to pay $250 to be in one discipline of the US Snowboard Nationals Boardercross. One event! With zero prize money! Time for us to buck up or get out. I'm just saying, we've been racing on the cheap for a decade, and we're paying for it. Some great races have been retired. I'm thankful for those who deal with this shit and are willing to put one on with all their imperfections.

I have a hard time agreeing with this, We are still struggling to grow. Did you talk of Pro entry fees or general entry fees? It's one thing to raise the Pro's entry fee (because they already "exist") but another thing to raise women's, juniors' and Am's entry fee.
But well, we would probably be talking of a Main/Major event as opposed to Basic/Grass Roots events.
It's more the structuring and coordination of having local, regional, national and international events that we lack of.

my 2 cents Canadian

rmn

Lynn Kramer · Post by **Lynn Kramer** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:57 pm

I got paid. It just took a minute. If you are living off paychecks from Slalom racing, you are in the wrong line of work.
True, they should have had medals for the AMs.
I did get a couple really cool shirts. These are like $50 at REI.
LYnn

Cat Young · Post by **Cat Young** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:57 pm

"Prize money and medals will be awarded to the top four Pro male and three female
finishers on each days."

I pulled this quote directly from the sanction request:
http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/ISSA/ ... -JUL18.pdf

It's the principle.
Medals would have been nice also.

Greg Fadell · Post by **Greg Fadell** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:00 pm

By now, if anyone thinks this is about "the money" or "making money", your IQ is too low for me to address and I do not have the time to explain things to make up for your lack of cognitive skills.

For those of you who want to blame things on the "Gorge Games", I too cannot address your lack of cognition and principle......

For those of you who want to stand behind the "let's all get along", "WE NEED EACH OTHER" yada yada yada..... you need a do some introspection on why it is you skate in the first place....

If your a weekend warrior..... we are on the opposite sides of the fence 5 days a week.

The best races last year were Indian School, The Beast of the East, and Richy's JPL.

What do they all have in common........?

NO ISSA!!!!! NO POINTS!!!!! NO BS!!!!!!

In fact those that want to make it out like I'm "all about the money" - the Beast of the East was specifically tailored to be a "PRIZE-LESS" weekend......
Those who want shwag to sell on ebay, points to make you "look" faster, or money were asked to stay home!

The ISSA needs to stop being "all things to all people!"

IF the ISSA wants to be a "rocket club" type organization ..... congrats...... it's already there...... just stop acting like you are NASA and I'll shut up!!!

But if the ISSA wants to promote the most "professional" level of skateboard racing, they need to REALLY...... REALLY....... HONESTLY........ look at what they choose to promote and how they choose to do it.....
If they did..... they would find it strange that the division THEY label PRO (not me) is the division that "most" racers try and AVOID for as long as they can............. and now ad to this the division that those who are "of age" are relieved to get OUT OF !!!!!!!!!!!!
Looks to me like the ISSA is "dangling carrots" in the wrong places.......

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:45 pm

greg
you can also talk to the wall in your living-room.
that's the same effect here.

nobody wants to have full responsibility,others attend races for the spare ribs,some are fine with a few shitty shirts(they even take the time to check how much they re worth).
somethings wrong,no...not something everything.

i will totally walk away from all this for this season at least.
pavel will not support any of the sanctioned races this year,sorry...

everything i read here encourages me more and more to walk away from issa and slalom in general.

buy more pink sunglasses and smile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Join the ISSA 25 cone series. One cyber race every second month!

Regular sessions allow newbies to join our community and discover slalom racing.

[2008] Prizes At The Gorge Games, Feedback, Complaints,

[2008] Prizes At The Gorge Games, Feedback, Complaints,

and the beat goes on

actually

Races

gorge games 08

Gorge Games Prize Money

Worlds

Re: Gorge Games Prize Money

Hood 08