Changes/improvements for brixlegg - your opinion is wanted

[Donald Campbell]

i had a longer conversation with my teammate paul price about improvements on race rules and some other stuff,some rules will change for brixlegg,that's for sure,but only for the better transparency and flow of the race.
so there's no need to smell any kind of revolution here.
i would also like to hear your very own suggestions on race formats and starts and so on

so the question is:what should be changed and why?
and:is this supportable and reasonable?

feel free to share your thoughts and thanks in advance for a lively discussion

[Peter Klang]

What is it you wanna change?
DQ is a question, 10% time ad or 99sec or 1,5 sec, or you DQ your out?
otherwhys I cant think of anything rtightnow.

PK

[Donald Campbell]

dq is the first question,right...
i think 1.5 of a sec is way too much.
the rider in this case is out-no matter what he does in the next run.
i would like to see a more challenging solution to that problem.
my thought on that one is:
tight,05sec
special 07 sec
giant 1 sec

it depends on the courses and on the times delivered on those courses though

this is just a suggestion i made above

i would love to see people have at least a slight chance to make it back into the race.
so what do you think on that topic?

[Ramón Königshausen]

Don't completely change this rule.
A 10% add of the qualification time seems to be the most reasonable solution, isn't it?


rmn

[Carsten Pingel]

my 5 cents:

- a moderator which tells some background infos to the audience about the skaters/racers, especially the pros (How long skating ?, Sponsors, results,....)


- not so much wasted time with too much of training between the races! Maybe 2 or 3 runs, just to see the racetrack and to fix the board set up. Like in Ski Racing !

[Peter Klang]

One part of me agrees with Ramon 10% added time of the rider you are racing, BIG BUT, other sports are very clear, you DQ your out. I don´t really care what the dissision will be, just as long it´s cristal clear BEFORE the race.

I also agree with Carsten, to much time is wasted on practice, 2-3 runs on clear courses (all cones in place) then it´s on. I even think a timed practice run would be interesting, like Formula one, Pool posision, best run gets to go last in competition. I know this is a big hazel for orgenizers, but it would be fun, not a demand. Timed practis run however get everybody an idea of setting up the board. ah f#@k it, it´s to much, lets just keep the practis to 2-3 runs on set courses.

I do have one more point of interest. What count toward the overall results (Money)?


I will try not to bore you any moore
PK

[Paul Keleher]

Don,

Personally i would like to see a max hit cones introduced....such as 10% then DQ

so on a 40 cone course, you can hit 4 cones, on your 5th your DQ'd

the unlimited cone hits of certain competitions becomes a bit of a farce...slalom is about using you skill to go round the cones, not get down the course as fast as possible hitting every cone along the way.

just my 2 eurocents worth

Paul K

[Steve Hinzen]

Peter Klang:

I don´t really care what the dissision will be, just as long it´s cristal clear BEFORE the race.

I toally agree on that. Go print all the ISSA?-rules on paper (somebody, maybe Corky?, has written them down before) and hand a copie to each racer before the competition.
And NEVER change the rules during competition.

[Steve Hinzen]

Carsten Pingel:

a moderator which tells some background infos to the audience about the skaters/racers

good idea, Carsten!
I remember from different surfing competitions that each surfer was asked to fill out a questionnaire which was given to the moderator.

[Carsten Pingel]

For us the infos are not neccessary ! But for the audience...they come to a racetrack...see s.th. whats new for them.....see some guys kickin' some cones.....but where are these guys from ? How long do they skate ?Why do they hit so many cones without getting DQed ? What is DQ ??? Why Pros and AMs ?

Maybe we get some testboards for the audience ?

Maybe we could set up a beginners training course, like straight 2,5m ? 20 Cones ?

I understand the spectators who watch for 20 min and go away ! Slalom Skating is not that spectacular as Ramp or Pool Skating.

So our mission is it to entertain the audience , not only ourselves !!!!

[Peter Klang]

Not slalom related but anyway,
Steve Hinzen, did you surf for the German national team in the Eurosuf? If yes, when?

I surfed for Sweden from 1987-1995.

Cowbunga
PK

[Ramón Königshausen]

Don,

Personally i would like to see a max hit cones introduced....such as 10% then DQ

so on a 40 cone course, you can hit 4 cones, on your 5th your DQ'd

the unlimited cone hits of certain competitions becomes a bit of a farce...slalom is about using you skill to go round the cones, not get down the course as fast as possible hitting every cone along the way.

just my 2 eurocents worth

Paul K

In my opinion, losing .4 or .5 of a second to the other racer by cone penalty is still enough in a pro conpetition because the racing times are so close to each other that a tenth of a second already matters enough to decide wheter you win or not.

my 2 Swiss Rapps


rmn

[Steve Hinzen]

Yes, Peter, I took part in the Amateur World Championships in Lacanau 1992 as a sort of wild card representative for Germany.
The next year I quailfied for Team Germany and took part in the Eurosurf 1993 in Scotland, Senior's division, beating a Swedish guy called Peter Klang in the repechage round? In the end I got 10th, you got 11th? Big Thurso right, remember?

[Peter Klang]

HA HA HA, Thats great, that was you, hahaha. Thurso was great, I just wished I would of surfed a bigger board, I was lost even before I hit the water. We have to drink a beer in Riga and talk about this, You just made my day, this is funny.









Steve du bist ok
PK

[Steve Hinzen]

Ha,ha! I was jeallous about your funny team-t-shirts at that time. Didn't it show a surfer with a bag pushed over his head and a stupid face painted on the bag?

Yes, Peter, that's a good reason for a big beer in Riga!

(Maybe we should organize a surf- and slalom-competition in Biarritz one day.)

[Marcus Seyffarth]

Oh my god I'm so conservative.

No DQ after X hit cones that's just lame. I've only been to one competition that used that and it was the worst idea this far. I agree that conespraying is not a beautiful sight but it happens to us all and it's punishment enough with the time added.

It makes sense to have it once you pass the DQ limit though, since it's weird that you can get 1.8 seconds penalty for ploving 18 cones and you only would have gotten 1.5 sec penalty if you blew out totally.

About the DQ I vote for 10% or 1.5 seconds. Remember that Maurus took the victory from Richy in the TS after DQ'ing his first run in the final of the worlds 2004, so it's not impossible. Just VERY hard.

But that's only my 2 öre.

[Vincent Berruchon]

Don,
Personally i would like to see a max hit cones introduced....such as 10% then DQ
so on a 40 cone course, you can hit 4 cones, on your 5th your DQ'd

the unlimited cone hits of certain competitions becomes a bit of a farce...slalom is about using you skill to go round the cones, not get down the course as fast as possible hitting every cone along the way.

just my 2 eurocents worth

Paul K

I'm really against that idea of 10% cones limit.
Add a bigger penalty can be interesting but the 10% then DQ rule is just bad.
We had a race like that during the KO system: a little mistake can make anyone hits 3 or 4 cones and so eliminate some of the best riders
I suppose you hadn't seen some really tight special pro races like we had in Gruningen, Paris or Stockholm or you woudn't think about that.

Perhaps 25% could be a limit, but 10% NO if the race is not set to be so easy (that's not the way it goes)!

[Vincent Berruchon]

about DQ penalty: isn't it normal to penilize a DQ.
And 10% is not so bad when the race is short but of course with 25s or more races, it seems huge
but 1s on a giant can be not so big too (but will we have giant parallel?)

My opinion now would be to set penalty to 10% of best the qualification time if <1,5s,
else just add 1,5s.

We could stop at 1,2s or 1,7 depending different factors. Perhaps something is possible too as 10% of the racer involved qualification best time, but it's probably complicated if not managed by a software.

[Peter Klang]

Steve, I still have the windbreaker. Funny print on a funny team.
Do Norbert Hoischen still run the german crew?



Hard looking MF

[Steve Hinzen]

Yes, I guess he's still President of the German Federation and coach of the German Team. With Marlon Lipke they have one of the best european surfers in their team. He rides professionally for Quiksilver.

[Peter Klang]

so does Sweden Fredrik Meddows came 24 in the Worlds Juniors

[Paul Keleher]

I suppose you hadn't seen some really tight special pro races like we had in Gruningen, Paris or Stockholm or you woudn't think about that.!

Vinzz,

I was in Gruningan Last year!! and i did think about it...and if applied would have changed the qualification in both Pro's and Ams and a fair bit of the final racing.....i might even work it out if i can get the results from j-rad!!

I saw certain racers hit so many cones that the Cone marshalls gave up counting and just guessed!! 25 cones hit out about 40 is crap!! and looks really bad to spectators.....In Hyde Park, most of the people watching us Applaud a clean run!!

Yeah i can go down the course realllll fast and take every cone out along the way.....but wheres the skill in that.....some of the Racers Pro's and Ams that hit kazillions of cones still managed to advance to the next round purely because they were faster down the line, but thats not slalom racing...thats virtually ignoring the course as set and riding to your own preference

OK Don't have a limit to DQ, but at least make the Cone penalty a real penalty, like 0.2 on a TS or Hybrid and 0.5 on a GS. that would make peple think a little more abouit clattering cones, 5 cones hit is a full second on your time......Not easy to pull back, but still acheivable

[Marcus Seyffarth]

Paul,

I think Pierre won the coneploving trophy with 26 cones in Grüningen last year. Pretty sure he didn't win that race though.

[Paul Keleher]

Marcus....

I was being diplomatic, which is why i didn't name names!!

[Marcus Seyffarth]

Hahaha my bad!

I think he was kind of proud of the achivement at the time though, after all hitting more cones than you "miss" is not as easy as it sounds...

[Paul Keleher]

a little mistake can make anyone hits 3 or 4 cones and so eliminate some of the best riders

Vinzz..

Missed that bit,

a little mistake and hit 3-4 cones.....well..thats racing!!

eliminate the best racers.....well thats racing and tough luck!!

[alavoine jean paul]

about DQ penalty (but will we have giant parallel?)

.

Exactly!

[Chris Eggers]

To get back to the topic:

My opinion, if there are many spectators, a good announcer is worth a lot.

not much practice time. 3 - 4 runs in the special, 5 maybe. ( no, 5 is too much. We have 55 Ams in Brixlegg, that would be 250+ practice runs.........no)

2-3 in the tight.

no max cone DQ

1 sec DQ penalty equals 10 hit cones, thats ok. There is a slight chance to make it back.

A racer meeting in the morning before the race to sort out any misunderstandings soon enough.


Good display of the times.

[Donald Campbell]

some of the posted ieas will be implemented in the race,thanks so far
brixlegg will have riders meetings,of course,riders won't have the chance to go through courses for hours.
max 2 runs that's it.


please keep private discussions out of this thread to make it more effective/beneficiary to the race/riders.

[Chris Eggers]

One more question Donald..............

In Ski racing the racers have the chance to walk the course for a long time in advance (walk, not ride) to see how they will negotiate certain hairy turns and difficult parts of the course.

Will it be the same for us in the special and giant?
I think it would be very interesting...........

[Donald Campbell]

ski races have guarded courses we con't.
nice idea but not possible.
who wants to control that nobody skates in advance?
absolutely impossible

[Carsten Pingel]

right on Chris ! Thats what I allways say ! Like Ski Racing........ you have to get your skills while skating your home spot !! And not at the race track ! At the race track we want to see the results of the training sessions with your buddies ! So everybody gets the same chance to peform well ! For some skaters it will fit , for some not ! Experience counts !

Don: How about setting the cones, on the before marked spots, 10 minutes before the race starts ? No one can skate before ! Just 3- 4 training runs !

[Chris Eggers]

hm...............are we adults?

do we need guards for this?

self control?

[Donald Campbell]

you know the answer,so don't bother asking...

[Lynn Kramer]

In ski racing, if you ride the course, you will make GIANT ruts in the course. With skateboarding, we don't have this problem. Definitely should limit warmups to 2 runs, one each lane, between heats, but at the beginning of the day, let people run for an hour or 1 1/2 hours. The more experienced racers will quickly adjust their equipment, take 3 warmups, and be ready. The less experienced racers will rack their brains trying to figure out their equipment, and tire themselves out.
What works for us is to estimate the ending time. Then subtract 45 minutes for problems, then calculate how long it takes to run heats and qualifiers, plus 20 minutes in between for warmups. Then you know your start time. Figure out how early you want to wake up in the morning, and you have your practice schedule.
In the Registration, you list Women Pro and Women Am. GREAT IDEA.
Maximum cones should equal the DQ time. 1.5 second DQ = 15 cones max. We tried to run 6 cone DQ in Ohio. It didn't work. Something more realistic, but definitely have a max, because otherwise people will just spray and purposely (or not) knock cones into the other lane.
Start method. Please list the start method. In Switzerland and England, they use "5 seconds-go", in the US and Paris they use beeps. What will they use in Austria? I personally like the beeps. Although reaction is important, it doesn't really show how fast you can make the skateboard go.
Higher cone penalty for longer course. It should be about 1% of the total course. (.12 for tight, .4 for GS)

[Dominik Kowalski]

How about a push start for the GS?
We could set a range from where to start and where to stop pushing, I think this could also be a bit exciting.

[Gianluca Ferrero]

[quote="Lynn Kramer"]In ski racing, if you ride the course, you will make GIANT ruts in the course. With skateboarding, we don't have this problem. Definitely should limit warmups to 2 runs, one each lane, between heats, but at the beginning of the day, let people run for an hour or 1 1/2 hours. The more experienced racers will quickly adjust their equipment, take 3 warmups, and be ready. The less experienced racers will rack their brains trying to figure out their equipment, and tire themselves out.
What works for us is to estimate the ending time. Then subtract 45 minutes for problems, then calculate how long it takes to run heats and qualifiers, plus 20 minutes in between for warmups. Then you know your start time. Figure out how early you want to wake up in the morning, and you have your practice schedule.
In the Registration, you list Women Pro and Women Am. GREAT IDEA.
Maximum cones should equal the DQ time. 1.5 second DQ = 15 cones max. We tried to run 6 cone DQ in Ohio. It didn't work. Something more realistic, but definitely have a max, because otherwise people will just spray and purposely (or not) knock cones into the other lane.
Have
-media conferences
-political and sponsor support
-security
-time keeper
-catering
-entry fees
-timetables and cerimony
-hotsing
-marketing
-first aid service
-pit stop area
-parterre
-team hostess
-party
-invitations
-written rules and prizes fixed
-results printed before the cerimony and all the work after cerimony for the media ...


well ,probably everybodies had a great time but check what it could be done for let our sport grow and compare to the upon lines...Here in Italy we always did this work and we are working with CIO in this direction to let slalom in the place it has to be,since it' really a sport for everybodies,races or occasionally riders practice for fun or glory.


I also suggest to have a banked open slalom on street ( not more than 8 safe turns and some moguls) that could be more interesting also for spectators,and obviously,as written officially to most of You ,Junior Classes 8 7-11/12-15 yo


have a great holidays to everybodies


CONISKATE Pres.
Gianluca Ferrero[/color]

http://www.coniskate.it leading skateboarding since 1978

[Gianluca Ferrero]

as the upon one,thx for your attention,we appreciate your work glf and staff

[Gianluca Ferrero]

I'm pefectly agree with Lynn and Chris....IN ITALY (till 1989) and Europe (till 1982) we had courses setted up 2 hours before the race by 3 different nation'staff(not competitors)...and then only a walk inside them. The results were a very hi level of competiotors trained to do their best with ADDITION OF TIMES....AS in skis....
Then since 1989 in Italy's World Open SKF and then when i was elected President of Issa in 1990 and we fixed the method about course setting( 3 different countries before the race,the same day and 1/2 an hour for testing everybodies(this in Turin World Championships1990 & world cup 1991-1992-1993-1994.

NOW 2006 the problem is not to waste time,being professional and give better show to spectators and media, we have in mind TO FIXED ONLY 2 TESTING RUNS EACH COMPETITOR...that's all and enough and the best still come up again...

About advices for next RACES nad BRIXLEGG i could remem what other organised sports did for a competion :
-media conferences
-political and sponsor support
-security
-time keeper
-catering
-entry fees
-timetables and cerimony
-hotsing
-marketing
-first aid service
-pit stop area
-parterre
-team hostess
-party
-invitations
-written rules and prizes fixed
-results printed before the cerimony and all the work after cerimony for the media ...
-antidoping services
wc area




Well ,probably everybodies had a great time but check what it could be done for let our sport grow and compare to the upon lines...Here in Italy we always did this work and we are working with CIO in this direction to let slalom in the place it has to be,since it' really a sport for everybodies,races or occasionally riders practice for fun or glory.


I also suggest to have a banked open slalom on street ( not more than 8 safe turns and some moguls) that could be more interesting also for spectators,and obviously,as written officially to most of You ,Junior Classes 8 7-11/12-15 yo for very low fees

Fees ha to be divided at least of 50% and looking for some big sponsor to be usede in all the Circuit...or in the single ones as local ones...


have a great holidays to everybodies


CONISKATE Pres.
Gianluca Ferrero[/color]

www.coniskate.it leading skateboarding since 1978

[Gianluca Ferrero]

I'm pefectly agree with Lynn and Chris....IN ITALY (till 1989) and Europe (till 1982) we had courses setted up 2 hours before the race by 3 different nation'staff(not competitors)...and then only a walk inside them. The results were a very hi level of competiotors trained to do their best with ADDITION OF TIMES....AS in skis....
Then since 1989 in Italy's World Open SKF and then when i was elected President of Issa in 1990 and we fixed the method about course setting( 3 different countries before the race,the same day and 1/2 an hour for testing everybodies(this in Turin World Championships1990 & world cup 1991-1992-1993-1994.

NOW 2006 the problem is not to waste time,being professional and give better show to spectators and media, we have in mind TO FIXED ONLY 2 TESTING RUNS EACH COMPETITOR...that's all and enough and the best still come up again...

About advices for next RACES nad BRIXLEGG i could remem what other organised sports did for a competion :
-media conferences
-political and sponsor support
-security
-time keeper
-catering
-entry fees
-timetables and cerimony
-hotsing
-marketing
-first aid service
-pit stop area
-parterre
-team hostess
-party
-invitations
-written rules and prizes fixed
-results printed before the cerimony and all the work after cerimony for the media ...
-antidoping services
wc area




Well ,probably everybodies had a great time but check what it could be done for let our sport grow and compare to the upon lines...Here in Italy we always did this work and we are working with CIO in this direction to let slalom in the place it has to be,since it' really a sport for everybodies,races or occasionally riders practice for fun or glory.


I also suggest to have a banked open slalom on street ( not more than 8 safe turns and some moguls) that could be more interesting also for spectators,and obviously,as written officially to most of You ,Junior Classes 8 7-11/12-15 yo for very low fees

Fees ha to be divided at least of 50% and looking for some big sponsor to be usede in all the Circuit...or in the single ones as local ones...


have a great holidays to everybodies


CONISKATE Pres.
Gianluca Ferrero[/color]

www.coniskate.it leading skateboarding since 1978

ABOUT OTHER RULES and the CONES

IT'S COMPULSORY,as written ISSA and CONISKATE rules, to REPEAT the RUN in case of
a DUEL or parallel slalom, a A CONE OF ONE RACER HIT THE COURSE AND THE CONES OF HIS ADVERSARY...

Then talking about CONES also JUDGES OF THE SECTION'S GATE have to check.


first: if the cone was hitted in center or from the outside of the course8in this last case,as always could see and remember what it was in the past,racer has to be DQ

second: used official judges and signed each cone with a number and give each judge a section from n. to n.

third: using also digital images for helping them

fourth:NUMBER OF CONES-simply if more tan 4 cones are hitted in row sequentially DQ or more than 12% if number of cones and time are more than 50 or final time up to 20 sec.
For longer races to be decided and written in the invitation ,after speaking with ISSA Coordinators and course setting men choosed.

FIFTH: ALL ORGANIZERS OR SO CALLED HAVE TO USE ISSA organisation and Our Federation to make things easier with no doubt and for the future of slalomracing.

Gianluca ferrero
Coniskate Pres.
www.coniskate.it

[Gianluca Ferrero]

about GS START: no doubt to use what ISSA CONISKATE fixed: Organizers have to use strating ramp(as in Antibes it was done...the one thing that really worked in 2003,and in any case the pushing line for Local comp or deeper couses HAS to be signed line to line and racers that pushing after those DQ....

Gianluca ferrero
Coniskate Pres.
www.coniskate.it

[Vincent Berruchon]

...
Then talking about CONES also JUDGES OF THE SECTION'S GATE have to check.

first: if the cone was hitted in center or from the outside of the course in this last case,as always could see and remember what it was in the past,racer has to be DQ

I can't see what the use for this point?
DQ if to hit the cone coming from the wrong side or in the center... It comes to forbid "criddle"

It arbitrary jugdement, I don't think these rule would bring anything except more difficulties to offer everybody a fair competition.

For example, during a in a tight slalom race -where racers are going through 5 cones/seconds- who can say if one's hit the cone in the center or even a little from the wrong side, it's just to difficult to see.
Keep it simple : Check that the racer go the good side of cones but if he hitted the cone it's a penalty without importance from where he hit it as long it with the board or foot/knee on the board.

[Gianluca Ferrero]

Thx for your private reply.
As we explained you we mean that it's a different course to pass the cone in the outside ,specoially in giant slalom on technical course.
Since late 1978 we used to have this rule and it's still work today,expecially with professional judges and digital instruments(read camera and videos and mobile)

have a great august we are leaving for holidays


Gianluca Ferrero

ps obviously we are going to skate on mountains' road in Valle d'Aosta where we 'll have some promo events with sKi School......

[Pat Chewning]

first: if the cone was hitted in center or from the outside of the course8in this last case,as always could see and remember what it was in the past,racer has to be DQ

second: used official judges and signed each cone with a number and give each judge a section from n. to n.

third: using also digital images for helping them

fourth:NUMBER OF CONES-simply if more tan 4 cones are hitted in row sequentially DQ or more than 12% if number of cones and time are more than 50 or final time up to 20 sec.
For longer races to be decided and written in the invitation ,after speaking with ISSA Coordinators and course setting men choosed.

FIFTH: ALL ORGANIZERS OR SO CALLED HAVE TO USE ISSA organisation and Our Federation to make things easier with no doubt and for the future of slalomracing.

I'll give my opinion on each of these 5 proposals:

1) Disagree: Judging which side the cone was hit on is not practical. It prevents the strategic "criddling" of a cone. If this were in place, nearly every cone would have to be examined using item #3 (digital images) and it would slow down the race.

2) Agree: World Championship races should probably have non-racer cone judges with assigned cones.

3) Disagree: Digital imaging (or any imaging) should not be required. It should also not be ALLOWED. I agree with FIFA in this respect ... replay should not be used for decisions of the referee and the cone judges. Who is going to obtain and inspect those images? Will you accept images from outside sources? What is the timeline for inspecting the images? What is the penalty to the racer should his "instant replay challenge" fail to yeild a result?

4) Let the organizer decide: The race organizer should decide what constitutes a DQ cone-count for a particular race.

5) I think we (ISSA) should offer some advantage to the racers and the promoters if they run by the ISSA rules. I believe the advantage we should offer them is the use of the ISSA name in promotional materials, and the inclusion of the event in the ISSA World Ranking System.