2009 Rules Update - Random beep

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Jani Soderhall
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2009 Rules Update - Random beep

Post by Jani Soderhall » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:18 pm

I suggest we make the new TrackMate with random beep start the only accepted method in finals. (and we no longer need the false start early start calculation in 6.1).

The old system of four regular beeps, should be designated the normal method.

/Jani

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Re: 2009 Rules Update - Random beep

Post by Chris Barker » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:12 pm

Jani Soderhall wrote:I suggest we make the new TrackMate with random beep start the only accepted method in finals. (and we no longer need the false start early start calculation in 6.1).

The old system of four regular beeps, should be designated the normal method.

/Jani
If you upgrade your firmware then you can no longer use the "normal" method.
It would be nice if there were a way to toggle this function without having to reprogram the firmware.

Also, there are many folks with older TrackMates that can only provide the "normal" method. This kind of rule mandate would render those pieces of equipment useless.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:31 pm

Not everyone has a trackmate !

If you want to improve races, tracktmate is for shure the wrong system if you want to înform the audience. Display's are needed even we have to count the Cones seperatly.

/J-Rad

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:20 am

I'm only talking about the method not the actual device. It's even better if you have a better device than the Trackmate. I definitely agree that we need big screens, but I'm not sure it's any easier with another system. The real problem is the cost of big screens.

For the older systems, there might be a chance to reprogram them too, but it'll surely come at a cost. I'll look into that.

The old "normal" method is the "other" mode, so yes you can run both.

/Jani

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Re: 2009 Rules Update - Random beep

Post by Jani Soderhall » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:24 am

Chris Barker wrote:If you upgrade your firmware then you can no longer use the "normal" method.
It would be nice if there were a way to toggle this function without having to reprogram the firmware.
I agree, that's what I originally asked for. I think he took a shortcut by replacing one of the modes.

/Jani

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Re: 2009 Rules Update - Random beep

Post by Chris Barker » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:42 pm

Jani Soderhall wrote:The old "normal" method is the "other" mode, so yes you can run both.
/Jani
Jani Soderhall wrote:
Chris Barker wrote:If you upgrade your firmware then you can no longer use the "normal" method.
It would be nice if there were a way to toggle this function without having to reprogram the firmware.
I agree, that's what I originally asked for. I think he took a shortcut by replacing one of the modes.
/Jani
These two quotes seem to conflict...

In the latest HW+firmware, is there a way to switch between random beeps and cadence beeps?

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Post by Miguel Marco » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:18 pm

Chris Barker wrote:In the latest HW+firmware, is there a way to switch between random beeps and cadence beeps?
With the latest HW+firmware in mode 1 (single lane/qualifications, independant tapeswitch activated times) = standard cadence 4 beeps. In mode 0 (dual eliminations, common 4th beep activated time start) = random 4th beep.

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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:29 pm

Why should the current method be changed? What is the reason for proposing this change?
5.1. START OF RUN
The start of the run shall follow a predictable and consistent sequence for all racers:
· Racers are called to the start and assume a ready position in the start ramp
· Race officials determine that the course is ready and the racers are ready.
· The timing system is armed and the racers given an audible signal.
· The timing system provides tones on 1-second intervals:
· 3 seconds to start
· 2 seconds to start
· 1 second to start
· START (Shall differ in pitch, duration, or volume from the preceding tones)
· Upon START signal, the clock will start for both courses, regardless of whether the
racers have passed the start line.
· Should a racer start before the START signal, the racer shall be penalized by an
amount of 2X the early-start interval.
· Should a racer start after the START signal, no additional penalty is given.
Can you edit the existing rule (as a proposal) so we can see exactly what it looks like?

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Post by Chris Barker » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:00 pm

Miguel Marco wrote:
Chris Barker wrote:In the latest HW+firmware, is there a way to switch between random beeps and cadence beeps?
With the latest HW+firmware in mode 1 (single lane/qualifications, independant tapeswitch activated times) = standard cadence 4 beeps. In mode 0 (dual eliminations, common 4th beep activated time start) = random 4th beep.
So once you have upgraded the firmware, you can only run mode1 (qualifying) with cadence beeps and mode0 (dual racing) with random beeps...

It's too bad a little more thought was not put into this so you could independently (at startup using 3rd button?) set the beep operation to cadence or random and then use that beep operation while the clock is in mode0 or mode1

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Re: 2009 Rules Update - Random beep

Post by Jani Soderhall » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:32 am

Jani Soderhall wrote:
Chris Barker wrote:If you upgrade your firmware then you can no longer use the "normal" method.
It would be nice if there were a way to toggle this function without having to reprogram the firmware.
I agree, that's what I originally asked for. I think he took a shortcut by replacing one of the modes.

/Jani
Chris, I went through a lot of trouble getting the functionality this far. If you want to take it further, please do.

But, if you haven't tried the new mode yet, give it a try. I can assure you that everyone I've talked to is really pleased with the new random beep.

As I see it the only remaining problem is the qualification. We need a way to get people off the ramp at the same time (and still assure that we count time in the course). It doesn't look good when riders start 3 secs before the 4:th beep.

/Jani

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Post by Janis kuzmins » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:48 pm

For thos who does not try random beep,

This is the best method for head to head. Works exelent.
above board method.

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Re: 2009 Rules Update - Random beep

Post by Chris Barker » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:22 pm

Jani Soderhall wrote:But, if you haven't tried the new mode yet, give it a try. I can assure you that everyone I've talked to is really pleased with the new random beep.
/Jani
One problem is that you can't just "give it a try"...

You have to upgrade the firmware in your trackmate clock and once that is done, there is NO way back because the "backlevel" firmware is not available for download.

As you know, Jani, Daniel of Trackmate is very hard to get in touch with, but it would be nice to get this fixed up.

And, Jani, since on your own you have altered the way that Trackmates now function, I think it would be appropriate if YOU contacted Daniel for a better solution...

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Post by Pat Chewning » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:56 am

Chris and Jani:

I have copies of the "old" FW version 6.3 and both of the newer ones (6.7 and 6.8 if I remember correctly).

I find it quite easy to rapidly reflash the firmware on the trackmate using the "Megaload" program -- but it is not something I would want to do between qualifying and final rounds.

I agree with Chris that it would be much more convenient to change the mode if the firmware didn't need to be re-flashed.

But I would take this a step further --- I can't for the life of me see any reason the qualifying runs and the final runs need a different beep pattern or a different mode of operation (timer start on switch, or on 4th beep). And therefore, I don't know why race organizers would WANT to have to remember to change the mode of operation between qualifying and final rounds. (This is one reason the ISSA rules call for the same method to be used all the time).

Since the owner of Trackmate does not supply the various versions of his FW for downloading, should I set up a site here on the ISSA web so that everyone can download whichever version they desire?

I haven't tried the random beep. I can see that it would be "true" reaction time and that might be good. But what about the early-start penalty? Is it still 2X?

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Post by Chris Barker » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:10 am

Pat Chewning wrote:Since the owner of Trackmate does not supply the various versions of his FW for downloading, should I set up a site here on the ISSA web so that everyone can download whichever version they desire?
Excellent, now if you could get the 6.3 firmware updated to fix the 64K bug for times over 64K milliseconds...
Pat Chewning wrote:I haven't tried the random beep. I can see that it would be "true" reaction time and that might be good. But what about the early-start penalty? Is it still 2X?
I believe in Paris, it was DQ if you left early...

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:32 am

First of all, I want it known I don't like the idea of random starts and will vote against it.

That being said, I do have a question:

If it's a "random" start, then why is there a need for more than ONE tone?

TONE - GO!

What do the other three do and what's their purpose?
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:35 pm

Pat Chewning wrote:But what about the early-start penalty? Is it still 2X?
False start = DQ.

WT wrote:What do the other three do and what's their purpose?
I think they're still pretty good, because it draws the attention (of the audience) to the starting ramps. Then they hear silence and see two riders in the starting blocks. Everybody's listening, holding their breaths. Then BIIIIP and off they go.

(It could have been done differently though. It wasn't required to have four beeps, but now that we have it, I think it's good.)


Chris, I guess I should get involved with Dan at Trackmate again, but I can't really set aside the time, so don't hold you breath. Let us know what you think of the random beep, now that you can rollback to 6.3 should you have to. The 64 sec bug is only a problem when copied to the spreadsheet, it only takes a few secs to manually write it in just like we've done all the previous years, so don't worry (too much) about that.

/Jani

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Post by Rick Floyd » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:23 pm

We used the random fourth beep for the hybrid finals in Antrim...I like it...lots of pretty even starts.
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Post by Jonathan Harms » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:11 am

I like the idea of random starts***, but I don't particularly like the idea of making Trackmate's random beeps the only accepted method. If/when it comes up for a vote, can it be written so it doesn't exclude other software that can do the same thing (assuming there is any)?

***After using the random-start beep method at Antrim this past weekend, I am 100% in favor of using it for all head-to-head racing. I can only speak from my own personal experience, but I think it really kept me focused. Somewhat surprisingly, I found I was LESS anxious on the start ramp than I am when the regular four-beep cadence is used. Rather than worrying whether I would anticipate the beeps correctly, I was keenly focused on the present moment; I felt like a cat waiting to pounce or a cobra waiting to strike. I LOVED that feeling! I think it really brought out the best of my racing abilities.

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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:14 pm

Jonathan Harms wrote:I like the idea of random starts***, but I don't particularly like the idea of making Trackmate's random beeps the only accepted method. If/when it comes up for a vote, can it be written so it doesn't exclude other software that can do the same thing (assuming there is any)?

***After using the random-start beep method at Antrim this past weekend, I am 100% in favor of using it for all head-to-head racing. I can only speak from my own personal experience, but I think it really kept me focused. Somewhat surprisingly, I found I was LESS anxious on the start ramp than I am when the regular four-beep cadence is used. Rather than worrying whether I would anticipate the beeps correctly, I was keenly focused on the present moment; I felt like a cat waiting to pounce or a cobra waiting to strike. I LOVED that feeling! I think it really brought out the best of my racing abilities.
I agree that the rules should be written to allow other possible beeps and implementations.

For those in favor of the random beep:

1) Should it be used also in Qualifying?
2) Is it necessary to have the DQ penalty for early-start, or can the random beep be used with the 2X start penalty?
3) Is this proposed rule change to ALLOW random beep as an alternate method, REPLACE the current 4 regular beeps, or ?????

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:29 pm

Pat Chewning wrote:1) Should it be used also in Qualifying?
I did not think so before, but I'd be ready to change my mind. I don't like when the skaters go at their own will. It looks bad for the audience. But it originally seemed the most correct way, to really obtain your time in the course. Now I don't think that little detail is worth the trouble. Also people like to compare their Qual times to Final times, so we'd better use the same system.
Pat Chewning wrote:2) Is it necessary to have the DQ penalty for early-start, or can the random beep be used with the 2X start penalty?
You can use it with the 2X. You get the reaction time, so you should be fine. Let's put that up for a separate vote though.
Pat Chewning wrote:3) Is this proposed rule change to ALLOW random beep as an alternate method, REPLACE the current 4 regular beeps, or ?????
I would suggest that it replaces the regular beep mode.

Of course the rule should not say "Trackmate". Other timers should be allowed, if it had the same features and could be considered reliable.

/Jani

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:33 pm

Jani Soderhall wrote:
Pat Chewning wrote:1) Should it be used also in Qualifying?
I did not think so before, but I'd be ready to change my mind. I don't like when the skaters go at their own will. It looks bad for the audience. i
There's a better way to fix that.

Promoters SHOULD start announcing WHEN RACING STARTS.

In other words, "Racing Starts At 1:00 PM!"

The racers arrive at 8:00 and qualify in a manner best suited to the racers' qualifying, not to what the audience wants to see. Anyone who shows up early can take what they get. This doesn't mean the announcer or promoters ignores any spectators in the morning, but at least the racers know that qualifying will be run for THEIR benefit, not someone walking down the sidewalk who's on the way to the Saturday morning farmer's market.
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Post by Jonathan Harms » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:58 pm

Jani, very well stated. And I like Wesley's idea to promote when the racing starts rather than the qualifying.

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:13 am

Wesley, I thought you posted in the wrong topic. I had to re-read it several times to see the link between my post and yours....

If you think that qualifying is for the racers only and should be done in the calm without noone watching, then let's have single lane qualifiers.

Unfortunately it's not that easy. Qualifying doesn't always happen in the morning. And for some racers, that's the only time in the spotlight they get, so we'd better make it good for them too.

/Jani

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