Changing materials ?

[Carsten Pingel]

Hi there,
just a short question !
Are the Turner Cambrias and Avalons made of different rubber mixture than the new 3dm Avalons and Cambrias ?
We just had the discussion about that in geman skate forum.
We have several not often driven wheels from 3dm with a cracked surface ! We also have wheels with worn out surface, especially the 74a Cambrias from 3dm......with the "old" Turner wheels we don't have this problem at all !
Thanks for your reply !
Carsten

[Dave Gale]

I cocncur, I have had less life out of the newer 3dms. And was contacted by someone who got several sets of the newest,and 40% of them were of questionable quality!!! And they are returning bunches! I will gladly pay a little more to get the quality back to where it was!! cooling and mold release issues seem to be the problem!

[Jack Smith]

This is absolute BS.

The materials have not changed. I handle and inspect great numbers of 3DM wheels, not to mention spending hundreds of hours riding these wheels. The quality is top notch.

Dave, the person you mention has an ax to grind with Dan. I'm surprised a man of your integrity and honesty didn't mention that.

[Dave Gale]

Jack,
I was speaking mostly on my own experiences.. I omitted the other's name due to the fact he merely sent pics of the wheels in question! I love the wheels and will continue to purchase them. I've just noticed more blimishing and less life out of the newest dyed color scheme! My apologies if it sounded otherwise! The white/grey variations seem to be of the high quality we're used to! I plead innocent to any old feuds that need to have their "axes" buried, not "ground"! I've had a few of the newer colored wheels that just don't feel the same, nor wear the same.
And remember..I was responding to another's concern, not starting the thread!
Hope all's well in the Smith house.
Enjoy,
Dave G

[Daniel Gesmer]

The 3dm by Seismic wheel line is molded at the same factory as always, using the same dies and the same high-quality materials and processes. Only the colors, and a few of the duros, have changed.

Michael Stride of Octane Sport in the UK is one of my biggest customers in the world. He recently received a series of emails from a U.S. skater/product manufacturer who wishes to cast doubt on the quality of the 3dm by Seismic wheel line. I will let Michael's response speak for itself:

"I am happy to confirm that returns are so low that I don't need to bother with replacements on any formal basis. [The 3dm by Seismic wheels are] an absolute pleasure to deal with. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that returns as a proportion of wheels sold (AND I SELL THOUSANDS) are less under Dan's stewardship of 3dm than under Howard Gordon's, who ran 3dm honestly and honorably as well.

I am [also] involved with UK sales of Gravity, Deathbox and Bulldog wheels. 3dm also has the LEAST returns as a percentage compared to those brands."

[Donald Campbell]

WE HAVE NO BEEF WITH ANYBODY HERE

but... the quality of a certain run might be questionable
most of the people having problems with the wheels bought their stuff from dealer boardshop in cologne germany
i have the same problems along with several other people.
carsten only wanted to kindly ask for a replacement on faulty product.so do i.
we always skate with one of the guys from the boardshop,so he's pretty much aware of the problems.
maybe he should contact you reg replacements.
if you think we are talking bullshit,i'll gladly psot a few pics of my wheels,which are concave after 20 hours of riding em.
very nice and detailed pics

[Daniel Gesmer]

Donald -

I have never sold any wheels directly to Dealer Boardshop in Cologne.

The wheels in question may have come from small lots that I recently shipped to two German distributors, Pogo and The Peak. They may also have come from a batch that was molded before I took over the 3dm wheel line. I have no way of knowing without seeing the wheels, or at least photos of them.

In any case, I have never received complaints of this nature from any other source.

Furthermore, depending on what the skater is doing, 20 hours of riding is plenty of time to put a big hurt on wheels of any brand. For example, Cliff Coleman and his posse of steep-hill-sliders could easily wear out a set ANY wheel in less than two hours! And when I write "wear out," I mean wear the wheels down to nearly the bearings!

Please email photos of the wheels directly to me at: dan@seismicskate.com

And let me know exactly how you guys have been using them.

Thanks!

[Donald Campbell]

will post a few pics tonight...
peak distr. is the right bet in this case...
what concerns me most about the quality of the batch is,that you have lots of bubbles in those wheels.
so,as it seems,that batch was poorly manufactured.
the wheels in question have been used for tight slom exclusively.
and when you see my wheels,you won't believe your eyes.
so stay tuned...

[Daniel Gesmer]

Donald -

The Peak has bought some wheels molded under my ownership, and *many* wheels molded under Howard Gordon's ownership.

It is normal for "meaty" wheels like these to have a few bubbles on the inside face. These don't effect performance, but Howard Gordon worked out an agreement with the factory regarding the number of bubbles allowed. This agreement is still in place.

I'll have a look at your photos, but don't fool yourself: Slalom puts a lot of stress on wheels, and any wheel will wear after 20 hours of hard slalom use.

Please email your photos directly to me at: dan@seismicskate.com

[Gary Fluitt]

I probably handle more 3DM wheels than anyone in the US and I have to say that I've been pleasantly surprised by the quality and durability of the new colors and durometers. I've been running harder duro under the newest poor of wheels, and I'm seeing much more consistent color quality and fewer edge bubbles then I saw in the Turner embossed wheels. I have to disagree with Dave about the old Turner embossed wheels. Bubbles were far far more prevelent, and the colors were wildly inconsistent. Since the 3DM emboss, it seems the pour is dialed and the quality is significantly higher in my experience.
I don't doubt the experience of the riders in Germany in reference to wear. This has a lot to do with the style of the rider and the surface. Chris Barker is a wheel manufacturers dream. His style of pump eats wheels up like candy. Watch one of the videos and you'l see "rock em sock em robot" grinding those wheels in like crazy. I have seen the guy cone out wheels in an afternoon. Green ones as well as white ones I might add. I don't have nearly the snap in my pump that Chris does and my wheels last twice as long, same course, same wheels, different style.
My 2 cents.
Fluitt

[Dave Gale]

Uh.. Gary,
I never diferentiated between "Turner" embossed and "3dm" The logo to me means nothing! I simply stated that the new colors seem to be wearing faster for me. I stated that the whites/grays were doing fine! Geezz, who made me a punching bag for a day?? he he hee. Hey, we had a death on the river yesterday and it was a late day, soon to be several long days ..Cut me a break! I merely chimed in.
Enjoy,
Dave G

[Dave Gale]

Carsten started it! I re-read my post and can see your confusion! I said "newer 3dm" not meaning vs Turner, just newer 3dm

[Gary Fluitt]

Got it - older 3DM does not equal Turner. In any case, you're wrong. The newer wheels don't wear faster than the older wheels. I'm using the same wheels since they first shipped in March. No de france. Maybe you're using softer than duro?

[Dave Gale]

OK Gary, "in any case, I'm wrong" But at the same token, My "newer" 3dm's "aint right" Maybe it's the batch ,but the latest turquoise and greens have worn considerably wurser than any other's I've had!
You know why we're all here?? 'Cause we aint all there!

[Donald Campbell]

so there's a pic of the left wheel,wheel is concave not coned.edges are breaking away,bubbles and holes in the urethane on the running surface.
20 hours on tight slalom destryed the wheel.
we had a sess going a few hours ago and heiko from peak brought me some new wheels.right now i'm using the blue formula for the back trucks.
everybody who attended the sess agreed on the poor quality of the wheels in the picture.as a matter of fact we all had some hearty laughs.
the blue wheels had ome urethane noses on the running surface or urethane smear ou could see and feel with your finger touching the wheel.

even heiko from peak was embarrassed when we approached him regarding the cosmetical defects.i don't want to tal about the bubbles.

when somebody tells me that this is normal wear(on my red wheels),i can only applaud this person for being from nother planet.
here on earth this kind of quality is untolerable.
my background is,that i get most of the stuff i skate for free,sometimes i buy stuff from friends to support their biz.
in this case i'm supporting heiko's biz and all i want is that he's not on the receiving end.

[Dave Gale]

Donald,
Don't you get it? You Are Wrong!!! There's nothing wrong with that wheel! And it's total B.S to suggest such a thing!
I agree that these problems should be taken to the manufacturer before smearing it here, but for some one to call you a liar and that your issues with the product are falsehoods ..Now that's B.S I've got blues that have done the same thing (I refuse to run reds after last years lip flop(my fault not the wheels) I've got whites and greys that are a few years old that just show healthy coning. Nuttin' similar to what you show or several others claim...
O.K I'm calm now!
Enjoy,
Dave G

[Gary Fluitt]

Donald,
I don't know what to tell you. If I put 20 hours of slalom practice on wheels that were exclusively on the back truck with ANY 74a side set wheel, I would produce the same results. That goes for Stingers, Flashbacks, Manx, Kryptos, you name it.

In 1984 I skated 2700 miles across the US in 27 days. I went through a full CASE of Kryptonic C70's, and I wasn't turning on these things at all, just pushing down the road. On hot roads we were destroying wheels in 2-3 days. The hotter the roads became, the faster we wore them out.

I will send you soft wheels from the other manufactures if you will put 20 hours on them and report back. Maybe there is a way to automate this in the lab. My point is, you will have the same experience on just about any decent slalom wheel at 74a durometer.

The edge break aways are a design issue with the 3DM that is well noted. Many skaters trim the edge for this very reason. It has such a thin edge that while it provides superior grip, it does chip away as it wears.

3DM wheels definately wear faster than center set wheels, but my experience is that you when you get durability you trade it for speed, and maybe also for traction. Jury is still out on that one.

I for one would like to see someone take all these wheels into a lab and do the tests. Any grad students out there want to take me up on it? I will supply the wheels.

Gary

[Gary Fluitt]

And Dave, please excuse my "you're wrong" sarcasim. I can tell from your posts you have the capacity for humor, which was my intent. It never seems to come across to well on the internet. I should have learned that a long time ago.
Next time I will lead with "Dave you ignorant slut". You're old enough to get the reference.

Sorry to hear about the accident on the river.

[Wesley Tucker]

I don't understand this. Although I won't say something extravagent like "my asphalt is hotter than anyone else's," I will say that I doubt anyone is skating on surfaces hotter than I do. When it hits 95 during the day with no clouds and no cooling off in the night, the surface just gets hotter and hotter. Going barefoot is a great way to suffer 2nd-degree burns.

I'm running two sets of Dan's Avalons, two sets of Howard's Cambrias and a set of Avalons I got from JG in 2002, which might be some of the first out of the mold. My wheels are perfect: no wear, no lip, no cones, no cracks, no concave, hardly any deformation of any kind at all.

I do, however, do one thing that might be considered "different" from just about every other racer I know: my wheels NEVER leave the surface. I don't kickturn, spin or any way "lift and hit" my slalom wheels on my slalom boards when I ride. I've learned that most wheel coning and edge chipping comes from this almost-unconcious "slamming" of the wheel when stopping and spinning the board around to go in a different direction.

I wonder how much of this Donald, Gary and Dave are doing to their wheels? It might be telling as to why your wheels are deteriorating at a rate much faster than mine.

Oh, for the record, I skate about an hour a day, two or three on the weekends. so it's not like my wheels are sitting in the corner gathering dust. That, of course, is another excellent means of extending wheel life. You don't get any faster, but you can brag about some fabulous equipment. :-)

[Wes Eastridge]

I don’t get it. How would anyone expect a 3dm wheel to cone? It’s not going to cone at the side edge because that is not where the hub is located. It’s not going to cone directly in the center because the hub isn’t there either.

Softer wheels cone sooner than harder ones. 74a is the softest duro for slalom that I have ever heard of.

I know people who have 80a Avalons that are in the exact same condition as the ones is the picture. It just took longer for the wheels to get that way because they are harder.

Bubbles are a different case though. Wheels should be produced as bubble-free as possible.

[Dave Gale]

Wesley, You silly Twit (did the humor come thru?) I wish I could skate every day. But reality w/ my schedule is to play hookie few evenings,and skate hard for 3 or 4 hours. As we've (most of us) agreed..take a problem with a product to the source 1st. If you get no gratification, then take it to the public! 3dm has proven to produce good product over and over.
P.S Wesley, my hillbilly barfoots can out last your tenny runners on hot ass fault any day! (is this ass fault stuff the smoove black junk they put on our red dog roads?)
Yo' Fluitt, my 84 year old dad has been missing in action for 2 weeks. He calls a few minutes ago from Estes Park (got a condo there) and tells me to come out and visit! Must be nice to not have to work ...Wolf Creek Pass was a favorite of mine! how far are both? been 15 years or better!

[Dave Gale]

Wes E (not Wesley) I've had a few cut down Avalons cone in, so never say never!

[Eddy Martinez]

I bought some 3dm Avalon wheels from Gary at Asphaltplayground the mango 86 duro front and the blueberry 78 duro in the back. The back wheels being softer did cone but that was to be expected. I use them on my GS Insect Citybomber alot. I also bought some shaved Avalons from Mark Mc Ree at G4. I use them in the front of my tight slalom boards very little coning. I do put these wheels through there paces. They survive the Texas heat. No complaints here. Eddy Texas Outlaws.

[Michael Stride]

Phew, I am relieved at the general response about the German wheels...obviuosly expectations are high and I'm sure that anyone purchasing wheels for racing expects fair wear and tear.
Racers do sometimes (if they can afford it) keep back a set of scrubbed in wheels for racing, rather like fresh tyres on a race car. As an importer of course this makes me happy.
I was sent an actual wheel, a La Costa a while back by a customer who had worn it down to the hub. He sent it to me with a letter to show me how much fun he'd had wearing it down.

I'd have to concur that some racers do wear wheels faster, and in differnt places, I cant explain why that happens but style is a big factor I'd suggest. Also the nature of the road surface plays a large part. Some loctations chew wheels up.

One last thing, the picture show the Airflow rear truck running Reds...the truck is designed for grip, xso I'd suggest wear is increased running those trucks.

I have seen every wheel made for slalom cone and wear to varying degrees, as I've said its due to a umber of factors.

Finally we had excellent feedback about the Black 94a Cambrias to be used for sliding. We were surprised that hard core sliders loved the way they slid predictably and didnt flat spot or wear like the wheels they used originally. We ordered a load of Cambrias and Avalons in harder duros specifically for this market. It just shows you cant please all the people all the time.

Michael Stride

[Donald Campbell]

after having read the numerous replies to this thread,i have to admit that any complaint given,leads to nothing.
the reasons why:
there's a lot of different oppinions involved and also it seems quite normal,that the wheels cone out,or in my case,concave out.
i have to admit though,that i was surprised that it happens so fast.
it's a matter of style or speed involved how much those wheels can bear.
i'm not slow and i have an aggressive style.i pump a lot from the rear truck,that's why i use offset hangers in the rear(airflow or indy).
so,lets just leave it like that,i can see no use in argueing about the wear of those wheels anymore.
i'll try out some stuff in the near future,to see what's up with different wheels and to determine what suits my needs best.

besides that,i can't see why i shouldn't post my thoughts about the quality of a wheel here(no matter what brand),when i see that one of my buddies,gets flamed for complaining.
you may think different about that issue,but that's the way how each and everybody involved at yesterdays' session thought about it.
that's how the germans are and it seems that a lot of folks show interest in forum activities.
the american etiquette says,that complaints should be directed at the manufacturer directly-which is ok and true.
the german etiquette says almost the same,unless we feel that a bro has been treated unfair on raising a subject.

no need to get upset about this,just an explanation of the circumstances that created my post.
i like the performance 3dm offers,speed is also ok,casting is terrible.
when you say that bubbles are ok with you,i would suggest that you never ever try to enter the street or vert market with your brand.
people might think differently about that issue.100 % of the wheels i received yesterday would have been refused by the buyer.
be it the bubbles or poor casting.

poor casting means that the running surface is not even,small channels going through the urethane,urethane smear or drops on the surface.
everybody saw that yesterday without using magnifying glasses.

that's an issue which can be improved in the future without a doubt.


wheels are good-no doubt about that-but improvements have to be done on the pouring and casting.
just try to stick with my thoughts and let's leave it like that.


peace

[Ramón Königshausen]

What about mistakes like that:





rmn

[Jack Smith]

To Carsten and Dave, I apologize for the tone of my original post.

I think that these concerns should have been taken directly to Dan Gesmer. Dan has spent a great deal of his adult life striving to bring the skateboarding world innovative and quality products. He has also taken huge financial risks to deliver us these products. Seismic/3DM is not some huge corporation, it's Dan.

He should have been afforded the courtesy of having any "problems" brought directly to his attention.

[Daniel Gesmer]

Ramon -

The 3dm wheel shown in your photo is a light grey 85A Avalon that was molded when Howard Gordon still owned the brand. (I've never molded any grey wheels.) I have no way of knowing how old it is, or what channels it moved through before reaching you.

As for "mistakes", an agreement is in place with the factory regarding the number of bubbles allowed. Bubbles are very difficult to completely eliminate in "meaty" wheels like these (small core, large diameter) – especially on the inner face.

What we try hardest to eliminate are bubbles on the riding surface and on the lips. The bubbles shown in your photo (two medium-sized ones and a bunch of tiny ones on the inner face) should not effect performance at all.

Regarding Donald's issues, I just received some emails from Heiko, co-owner of The Peak and the source of the 74A Cambrias and Avalons that Donald has been using. According to Heiko, Donald weighs more than 200 pounds and "pushes very hard."

Knowing this, it now makes perfect sense that Donald would wear through 74A wheels very quickly, with the wear pattern shown in the photo above. A person of his size should be using much harder wheels, especially if he pushes with a lot of force.

[Ramón Königshausen]

What I meant is that the edges are not symmetrical. And the dark grey Avila in the picture below hasn't got a plane surface.

[Daniel Gesmer]

Ramón -

Your second photo shows a surface wear pattern that is well within the expected wear parameters for ANY softer wheel used in a slalom application. This is not "a mistake" or a "defective" wheel. This a wheel that has been used and worn.

Please understand that with any softer, traction-oriented wheel, the edges will flex a lot during sharp turns. So the surface often wears in an asymmetrical pattern, depending on many variables including rider weight and style, riding surface, truck width etc etc.

Regarding your first photo, it is difficult for me to comment without seeing more. The asymmetrical edges may be the result of asymmetrical slide wear.

How long has this wheel been in use? How heavy is the rider? What kind of roads has it been ridden on?

[Ramón Königshausen]

Ok, second attempt:



I hope it's clear now....
I've ridden those wheels about 3 or 4 times...

rmn

[Donald Campbell]

sorry ... only 190 pounds to offer at the moment
besides that i know a guy who weighs 140 pounds and he has the same problem

[Greg Olsen]

I am an Industrial Designer and have designed and specified several low volume manually poured erethane products over the last few years. They have bubbles. We have an inspection spec. for the number of bubbles allowed and what size they can be but we have to live with bubbles. If you want a machine injected product free of bubbles(vacuumed out) then go buy one of the mass-made products. I would guess all vert wheels are machine made. The lower cost wheels for longboards flogged by discount shops and the ones that come on completes too. If you want exotic slalom racing wheels don't expect the flawless aesthetics of a machine made product. Don't expect the attention to product development and performance either in mass made products. I am speaking in support of 3DM against those who would criticize.

[Donald Campbell]

3dm and a change of mind.
after having ridden various 3dms over the last year,i have to admit openly that my first post on this topic was absolute bs.
ouch that hurt so much...
i've,since then,tried a few other brands,but always found my way back to 3dm.i can't explain why,but they work best for my needs.
i apologize being alive and being so impulsive as i am.
but hey...i'm still there!

[Eric Brammer]

On Turner/3DM/Seismic wheels that feature the smaller core (such as Avalons, Cambrias, Avillas + Hotspots), I've only had issues with some wheels being out-of-round, not with 'bubbles' in the tread. The out-of-round stuff is disappointing from a quality-control aspect, but understandable with wheels this large (um, and not an issue I've seen in Cambrias nor Hotspots!), but with some light machining, I've been able to re-round all but one wheel to my staisfaction, and have lost all of 3mm in diameter doing so. The one 'exception' wheel was a 3DM Avila in dark grey, which is 5mm out-of-round on the outside lip. Fixable, but also mismatched from a vendor no longer in business, so, it's a candleholder now. . ;-)

I've been using these excellent racing wheels for 6 years, and have had but 3 wheels out of over 60 used by myself and those I've coached be ugly enough that we've not used them. A few have easily won major races (um, with racers other than your's-truly), and heck, I've even gotten on a podium or two with them. I believe there are faster or stickier wheels now out on the marketplace, but few wheels have shown the persistantly viable, robust performance I've seen from this family of wheels. Love them or not, you've got to RESPECT what the Turner/3DM/SIESMIC wheels have brought us - Race wheels that work.