Cone Out rule!

Cones and Placement

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Richy Carrasco
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Cone Out rule!

Post by Richy Carrasco » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:51 am

I think the cone out rule should only be in use during races up to the final 8 racers and then the course should be checked by marshalls and then its tough luck! I am only bringing this up because of what looked like questionable abuse of the rule happened a few times at races. Also this would speed things up because there would be no stoppage of the race.

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Post by Rick Stanziale » Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:07 pm

I agree.

"Racer ready?" - answering affirmative implies acceptance of the course "as is"

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Cone Out

Post by Mike Ohm » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:18 pm

Rick, would the racer have the right to have the course checked before saying "READY"?

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Cone Out

Post by Kevin M. Gamble » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:18 pm

There are usually 3 questions before each race:

Timer Ready?
Response should come from timekeeper.

then

Course Ready?
Response should come from cone marshalls.

then

Racers Ready?
Response should come from racers.

If the racer has been told that the course is ready, than a cone out means that the course really wasn't ready after all. I think that the problem is one of poor communications from the cone marshalls to the officials at the top of the course. Radios help.

Why would you run the race if the timekeeper said that the timer wasn't ready?
Why would you run the race if the cone marshalls said that the course wasn't ready?

My 2 cents.

Wesley Tucker
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:36 pm

Yes, I find myself agreeing with Kevin. By Rick's logic, every racer would have the opportunity to cruise the course from bottom to top to check the cone placements. Otherwise, how would a guy at the starting line know a cone is out of place way down the course?

I also agree with Richy. Calling a heat and having a do-over in the round of 32 or 16 just means the faster guy has to race again and will get more tired than his competition in the final rounds.

The answer is two fold:

1. Better cone heading. It's really becoming the biggest issue around in running a smooth race.
2. Possibly a new rule for a misplaced or out cone. Misplaced cones USUALLY but not always lead to someone leaving the course and announcing, "the f^&*ing cone was wrong!" Instead of that, how about a rule that says if someone leaves the course as a result of a misplaced cone BUT GETS BACK INLINE in the Round of 32 and 16, then that DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A DQ?

Of course, this kind of rule means even more responsibility for the cone heads. Someone has to see that the course was in error, the skater made an error because of the bad cone and then the skater got back on course and finished the heat.

Cone Marshalling is going to have to get serious. It can't no longer be a some time thing.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:18 pm

Have a look here too for some more thoughts about this.

Richy Carrasco
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Cone Out!

Post by Richy Carrasco » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:59 am

Bottom line! This rule needs to not be a factor in outcomes of Races!

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BETTER CONEHEADING & COURSE MARSHALLING

Post by Steve Collins » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:58 am

I agree with Rick & Richy, that there needs to be a limit on when the cone-off rule can be invoked, if at all. Races should be won by skill, not rule manipulation. It's probably a good idea to dump the whole cone off thing. Racers should know in advance that their complaints aren't likely to change race outcomes.

As Wes noted, it's up to the coneheads (and course marshalls, if any) to do a really good job. As far as cone-offt complaints, If there verifiably was a cone out of place, then I suggest that one of two more-or-less obvious things be the case:

1) If it would have resulted in a cone penalty or a DQ, then the racer should be forgiven the cone penalty or DQ.

2) If it is just the racer, complaining that they didn't get a fair shake because the cone was off, although there was no extra cone penalty or DQ because of the cone, then the Tough Luck rule applies.

===

On another note, I like the coneheading system where they hold up cards with the number of cones hit in their sector. Having been a course marshall, I can say that the hardest part for me was trying to see how many cones were being held up after a run. Coneheads get tired, spectators get in the way, those distant orange and white blobs merge together, accurate counts aren't always easy. Looking for a large, clear number on a card, maybe with different colors for different sectors, and especially with line of sight communication pre-dialed, would be the best way to go.

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:01 am

right on steve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

there need to be severeal cone-judges with one master-judge on the course to give an accurate count of fallen cones.pierre in france and axel in cologne handled their races like this.
3 coneheads on each side of the course + the master-judge.
also the cards with the numbers are a very good and simple idea.
all major races should definitely be held like this.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:14 am

donald campbell wrote:There need to be severeal cone-judges with one master-judge on the course to give an accurate count of fallen cones. Pierre in france and axel in cologne handled their races like this.
3 coneheads on each side of the course + the master-judge. Also the cards with the numbers are a very good and simple idea. All major races should definitely be held like this.
Have a look at the cone problem and ideas how to solve it.

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Post by Dave Gale » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:08 am

Communication is definetly KEY Buta racer claiming a cone out..after his run if he looses is a bogus gripe and it will happen in any sport! If it is aknowleged by a cone head or another compotent person then it should be up to the JUDGE!! cone out could also create an advantage in some cases..But I don't recall many instances where some lucky bastard gets a win by thousandths and want a rerun because a cone or to gave him a faster line than the chalk dictates!! The clock has the answers...humans make the mistakes!! It's a fact o' life!! LIVE WITH IT
ENJOY!! (while you can)

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:06 pm

The current rule or guideline is...

- If you finish the race and get a time it counts. No re-run even if cones were wrong.
- For the cone out rule to count you should run out of the course as quickly as possible and point out the error.

Normally cone out errors are in your favor because often the reason is that racer before you moved the cone a little but not enough to make it fall or move very much. This normally makes the line easier.

The time when it is really wrong is often when there are multiple markings for cones for different courses and you put back the cone on the wrong marking.

If a cone is really in the wrong place I can't see why that racer should be punished. We can only try to make sure that these errors are minimized as much as possible.

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Post by Michael Stride » Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:31 pm

Its nice to start the year disagreeing with Hans again.

If a cone is out it does two things. (to me at least)

1) puts me off
2) makes it MORE likely that cone will cause a penalty....again in two ways. 1) the cone may have been out and will now be counted as out. 2) the cone was slightly out and nudged again, thus becomeing fully out.

Hans argument that it makes the course easier is odd. I dont get it. I think any effect on shortening the line will be more than offset (pun intended) by the racers having to think about the cone being out. I for one can tell if a cones out quite easily.

I do agree that the way to deal with it is to run out of the course straightaway. I did this in a race against Richy at the worlds wher the cone wasnt replaced at all.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sat Jan 08, 2005 2:08 am

Nice to know that you are still out there watching Michael. I love to disagree with you too but I'm sorry to say that this time, even though you disagree with me, I must admit that I agree with all that you say. Is this a sign for the new year?

And I really tried to find something to argue about too but no. I found nothing. It must be the first time. I have to read your post again tomorrow. Maybe I'm just tired. :-)

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Post by Michael Stride » Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:52 am

In that case I change my mind.

Happy New Year!

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Cones

Post by Richy Carrasco » Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:03 pm

Maybe some something could be added to existing cones so to make them more grippy on the bottoms. Many times wind can move them from the markings , I for one hit a series of cones on my final run against Maurus and the cones knocked the ones in front of them off their marks sending me into DQ mode! Rubber dipped on the bottoms could help....

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Post by Carsten Pingel » Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:34 pm

We were thinking about a knee-high-kind-of fence in the middle of both race tracks.
It could be a net which is used at icehockey fields to protect the spectators from getting hit by the icehockey puck.
So the white cones stay on the "white side" and the red cones stay on the "red-side".

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Post by Peter Klang » Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:50 pm

Well, I tried for as long as could... In my view I think slalom is a racing kind of sport, if you want to play it safe and don’t charge down the course, it may so be that the guy your racing will. If you’re ahead in the race flying cones will not bother you. Go hard and stay ahead.

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Post by Jonathan Harms » Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:24 pm

Richy Carrasco Posted: 30 Dec 2004 19:51 Post subject: Cone Out rule!

I think the cone out rule should only be in use during races up to the final 8 racers and then the course should be checked by marshalls and then its tough luck! I am only bringing this up because of what looked like questionable abuse of the rule happened a few times at races.
Rick Stanziale Posted: 31 Dec 2004 09:07 Post subject:

I agree.

"Racer ready?" - answering affirmative implies acceptance of the course "as is"
Richy and Rick, I'm not trying to play "lawyer-ball" here, but I don't understand why you want to take such a drastic approach (the "tough luck" method). I'm also in favor of not delaying the race with a million protests or complaints, but I think there are at least SOME cases, even in the final 8 (maybe ESPECIALLY then, when championships are on the line), when there needs to be a way for a legitimate complaint to be heard.

Richy, can you give us some more details about exactly what happened in the races where people abused the rule? If you don't want to name names, just call the people "Racer A" and "Racer B," or “Cone Marshall X” or "Race Organizer Z." Isn’t there a way to deal with someone who abuses the rule as a psych-out trick or because s/he’s dissatisfied with his/her time, without eliminating the legitimate use and intent of the rule itself?

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Post by Christopher Bara » Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:29 pm

I havent been to too many races....yet....but i've been to enough that the whole 'cone-out, need a re-run' argument makes races boring, tedious and petty. Particularly in preliminary rounds.
Here's the funny part. The argument is always the same. "the cone was out and that threw me off".
Bullsh*t.
It's not as if the rider has been running the course over and over for weeks. Most often, s/he has only been thru it a few times, so the thought that a cone being off by a few inches is completely irrelevant.
Funny that they never want a re-run when they win! It's just a lame excuse to get a second chance.
If a cone is out by a few inches on your course and you lose, be a man and accept it. Dont bore the entire line-up by whining that you want a rerun.
If you're any good , you would do well if a cone or two is off a bit.

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Cone Out

Post by Gary Fluitt » Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:12 pm

The overwhelming majority of cones that are out are out because the cone head didn't put them in the right spot. Courses are chaulked in, then the get changed, and they get rechaulked. And it's even worse if you've run two courses on the same hill. I've had to explain to 10-year old cone head volunteers just the same as paid professional cone heads "the cone goes in the pink circle, not the purple circle". And if you get rain, forget it. Circle gone. TS course markings get hammered by the time qualifying starts.

Last year we started using florescent duct tape to mark the course. This was to facilitate the oh-so-popular no-cone practice, but there was an interesting bi-product. The Tape made it REALLY easy to see where the cone was suppose to be. And when we changed the course ever so slightly, we pulled the tape and moved it too. So there were no remnant circles lying around.

So this year I am having 500 5" diameter florescent stickers made for the sole purpose of marking courses. If anyone wants to try these, please let me know, I'd be happy to send you some. This is a great relief to cone heads and skaters alike, because we both know if the cone is off or not.

If a cone is out, I believe it is your responsibility as a racer to either pull out of the course and call "cone out" or stay in and shut up. You can't finish the course, look over and see if you lost, and then call a cone out.

As for cone hits from the opposite course, this has bugged me for a long time. We don't always have the option of being 14' apart like we were at Morro Bay. In Breck we are about 10' apart and cones do fly.

Putting a fence between the racers is something I've wanted to try, but when I suggested that, people had visions of racers pulling out of the course and going into the fence like Jean Claude Keily. I don't think this is a concern we should worry about, particularly on TS. And it's generally only needed in a couple of sections of the course. There is a stiff plastic fence sold at Home Deopt that's 18" tall and is made of plastic mesh. You could still see through it which will make the spectators happy, as well as you, trying to keep track of your opponent. I think we'll try it at Breck this year. I might use hay bales as stantions between the fence sections, because you know how much I like hay bales.

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