Various Course Diagrams For Public Consumption

Cones and Placement

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Wesley Tucker
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Various Course Diagrams For Public Consumption

Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:02 pm

For no other reason than I'm bored around here at night, I've decided to take up a new hobby: course diagrams. My plan over the next few weeks is to draw a few different courses, make them available here on the forum for anyone to download for their own use. Although I don't expect these courses to be considered competition approved, they certainly should give the novice some idea of what to expect with the demandsof contemporary racing.

This first diagram tries to shed some light on what is called the "Gilmourian Curve." John likes to set courses that makes no sense and sometimes it takes a picture with arrows and circles with a paragraph on the back of each one to make it clear. In all seriousness, what is sometimes confusing about the "Gilmour Curve" is that you will find yourself in the middle of it going to the "wrong side" of a cone. In order to make the course, you will go from cone "A" to Cone "C" by skimming to the INSIDE of cone "B". This will distract a rider who hasn't faced it before and the best way to get around this new experience is to PRACTICE. Here's something that will make it more understandable:

Image

Print it out, put it in your pocket and go find a stretch of asphalt to lay it out. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't. The good thing, though, is that you'll be riding something different than what you and your friends have been riding. The best way to expand your racing skills is to avoid getting into a rut and riding other courses.

I've got a few more I'll throw down this weekend. I especially want to draw up a single lane Giant Slalom. That'll be next.
Last edited by Wesley Tucker on Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:05 pm

Here's some more curvacious fun with a GS flavor. Not a whole lot of cones, but when you add up those 15-foot spaces, you realize this would take a pretty good sized hill. Also, find something relatively STEEP for this one. If not, you'll have to get out and push to make the end!

Image
Last edited by Wesley Tucker on Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:35 am

One last one for tonight. Here's another dual hybrid with another little difference. The cones are "variably spaced" with no attention to regular spacing. Through the offsets and the curve, the cones stretch out from 7.5 to 15 feet and then back again. Makes for some interesting adjustments, especially farther down the course when the speed picks up. Also, don't shrug off the "diagonal" stinger at the end. Getting over with your hips lined up to take that little wiggler can be a trick with any speed under your wheels:

Image
Last edited by Wesley Tucker on Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:13 am

Wes,

Great drawings! Keep up the good work. I'll try one of these in the autumn to see what they're like. I've never used predesigned courses, we always just set the courses as we arrive at the site.

Would you be able to come up with a naming or numbering system for your courses? And then add a small label in the drawing. That would help a lot when we want to discuss them in the same thread.

Those "B" cones that you mention we've always called "negative cones". They make the course look really difficult but when you arrive there you just have to go straight. But it confuses the riders as we're all used to turning around every cone. I like having a "negative cone" every now and then in a race, but they need to be accompanied with a shorter cone spacing for the "A" and "C" cones otherwise it is really just a waste of time and space.

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:15 am

One more thing now that you are the master of course design, could you number the cones somehow? That would make it easier too in discussions. Maybe a small digit out in the left margin?

Thank's.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:54 pm

Wes,

In the last hybrid course you are suddenly going in to the course from the left. Is that an intentional "trick" or a mistake?

I prefer the golden rule to start all courses by going in from the right.

Nice drawnings by the way. Maybe we should print up a little booklet with courses and course design examples in the future. Something for all slalomers to keep in their back pocket going a practice session.

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Post by Michael Stride » Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:34 pm

Never realised there was a "Golden Rule" for going in either way.

Mixing it up a bit is no great biggie. When we practice I always draw an arrow to show the entry side, easy. The less "rules" the better.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:28 pm

Hans,

Yeah, I forgot. I grew up in the country and just never got into the habit of ALWAYS setting the first cone for a sweep to the right. It's easily corrected though: Add one cone or delete the first cone. (I made the same mistake on my Folly Beach course design last year and we corrected it in just this manner after some complaint from the racers. No big deal.)

Michael, that "golden rule" was an ISSA directive layed down some time in the past 15 years. It says that all courses for an ISSA sanctioned event must be entered from the right. Since I never even heard of the ISSA until last year (:-)) I'm still not really keyed into all their rules. No complaint here, it's just never a rock-hard habit I ever got into.

You guys are like contractors: once the architect lays down the plans, god help the guy who alters the final construction from the design! :smile: Don't take this stuff so seriously. Play with it, make adjustments. If a cone is put down right on a manhole cover, make a change. It won't hurt my feelings.

Jani, I guess I could figure out some sort of numbering system. Probably something like

(First Entry): Type of course (1=tight, 2=hybrid, 3=giant)
(Second Entry): Recommended hill (1=shallow, 2=5-6% grade, 3=STEEP)
(Third Entry): Suggested level of difficulty (1=Simple, 2=moderate, 3=challanging)

So, I would say these first three course would be:

Course 1 Course Design # = 2-2-2
Course 2 Course Design # = 3-3-2
Course 3 Course Design # = 2-2-3

A few months ago I wrote a post where I made the analogy of rating and riding slalom courses to the "parameter codes" used in making synthesizer music. I liked it when I wrote it and like it now. All that needs to be done is making a standard for road conditions and hill steepness. That way in much the same way a musician can digitize every aspect of his sound (volume, wave form, filtering, sustain, etc.,) we could "digitize" a race course and make all aspects of an event public long before an event.

I still am troubled by the fact that slalom courses are kept a secret from the participants up until an hour before the racing starts. I know, it's the way it's always been done. Doesn't mean, though, that I have to like it and can't keep arguing for a change in philosophy. If we really want to see speeds and daring explode on the course, wait until the time comes when 40 racers show up for an event and all have practiced the course layout for a couple of weeks. Then, the challenge is putting your skill up against another guy who's also practiced for a couple of weeks. It will make for a completely new dimension to the racing we've all seen for the past three decades.

BUT, that's not why I drew these course designs and the ones I'll do in the future. Mainly, I just want people new to slalom who have never been to a major event to know what we're talking about. Trust me, until you've seen a "Gilmourian Curve," or a "Tight stinger" or even "tricky offsets," you have no clue what is being discussed. I hope my scribblings make it a little more clear for the newbies picking this up for the first time.

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Post by Michael Stride » Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:50 pm

Good thoughts Wes.
My solution would not be to add or remove cones in order to fit in with the "rules".

I'd throw out the stupid, dumb, pointless rule! What on earth is the reasoning behind such inane pickiness? IS it REALLY important as to which side you enter? And if it is surely it favours goofy, or regular footed riders one way or the other thus being unfair. (I don't care which way I enter, only that its the designed way)

I think your course ideas are great, I'll blow my own trumpet here as I'm often asked to set up practice courses, and I'm constanttly surprised at the unwillingless of others to give it a stab. Your course layouts will help people get a fix on what to do. Keep it up.

I did hear that the courses recently set in Germany were mirror images of each other, and that Jani entered the wrong way. Much as I like and respect Jani, I say tough luck matey, keep your eyes open, and your mind on the ball!!! Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Post by Adam Trahan » Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:30 pm

...rules are a sticky subject, especially when it comes to skateboarders although skateboard slalomers realize that there must be some sort of rules.

As long as I've been following the ISSA, it's always been a "rule" so to speak that you enter the course on the right. I'm a right foot forward skater and if the "rule" was the other way, wouldn't matter.

I like rules and I think that as we progress the sport, rules will always be right there with us.

The arrow entry if I'm not mistaken is also a long time tradition of the ISSA.

Anyway, I've no problems with mixing it up, and I have no problems with having rules for skateboard slalom.

Just a couple of thoughts.

The course diagrams could go along with EXCEL programs and having the cones numbered is good. Man you are full of good ideas, thanks for putting them down here. I appreciate your time and Michael, yours too.

Best to you all.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:43 pm

Ok, now the cones are numbered: Left Hand margin for single lane racing, down the middle for the duals (glad I was able to find some good use for those lane marker stripes.)

Soderhall is such a pill! :smile:

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Post by Michael Stride » Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:47 pm

Here is my course:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


I call this tight and straight. (C) Michael Stride 2003 with respect to Wes.

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Post by Michael Stride » Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:52 pm

Sorry, didnt number them, indicate which way you should enter, nor which direction the run should be in. OOOPS.

By the way here's another:

O o . . o 0

(view from between the start ramps)

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Post by Michael Stride » Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:53 pm

And another:


O 0

(American Tight)

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:10 pm

British humor.

And they probably sit around the pub at night wondering how they lost their empire?

Heh, heh, heh.

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Post by Michael Stride » Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:19 pm

A Jani course with poles:

/ ) ( { } ¬ | /

An Eric Groff course:

* $ ^ 5%%%%% *** F*8 D****MMMMM *****!!

A TK Course:

"Where did Stride go!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????"

Its been two days since I slalomed, I'm stir crazy. Sorry.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:41 pm

Of course, let's not forget the now-infamous South Florida Slalom:


o






















0






















0





















0

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Post by Michael Stride » Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:00 am

Paris Slalom:

O O O O O Ohhhhhh La La!

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:54 am

Michael, I just wondered how many posts you would make before you went out of the course.

I love rules because...
1. Then it's easier to find something to complain about.
2. There is something to brake.
3. They drive Englishmen crazy.

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Post by Brady Mitchell » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:01 am

Wesly
West Palm Beach is considered south florida. And I think Chuck and Mark are leaning towards tight courses.

But I think that post was meant to be a dig on me. And to make it more accurate, question marks should`ve been used. I haven`t slalomed in months due to other priorities, much like your sabatical when you had your health problems.

Keep having your funnin` on me if that makes you feel better. I know i`m working towards my personal goals and not happy to rest on my laurels like yourself in other matters of life.

Slaloming is great but I can`t afford to let it affect my responsibilities. Especially to those that depend on me.

If working at the Cracker Barrel (or whatever you do) makes you happy and content, so be it.

But your constant digs at me show how a little, petty man you are. Especially in light of that I chose to prioritize my life to better my future, even if that meant not skating for a while....which is something I dearly miss, but sometimes other things come first, such as building a buisness, saving for tuition for my daughters college (hopefully an Ivy league school) and paying for my mother-inlaw`s retirement home expenses.

So keep on with your digs if that`s what makes you feel better.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Brady Mitchell on 2003-08-25 12:44 ]</font>

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Post by Michael Stride » Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:29 am

Well I thought it was funny. Good one Wes.

And Hans, I agree with you 100%. Studying Law has made me curiously lacking respect for Rules that serve no purpose other than to be a waste of ink. By the way, the Rule about right side entry says "Should" which in my mind leaves an element of doubt. A lawyer would have drafted the rule as "must". And it gives me something to argue about....

I even felt sorry for Jon Drummond at the World Atheletics deal yesterday in Paris yesterday...anyone else? The rules had recently been changed so that after the first false start ANY runner would be DQ'd if they false started in the re-try. Alos they had a reaction time limit, ie when the gun went off if you reacted too quickly you were DQ'd. I just dont get it. Here we have rules that prevent fast gettaways. Maybe I'm missing something.

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Post by Chris Eggers » Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:30 am

I also thought this rule was stupid. I assume the reason is that the start procedure was slowed down in the past because one after the other of the racers made false starts resulting in a delay of the event this resulting in a complaint by the TV crews and a threat to lose advertising money. This comes out when money is involved. Think about it.

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Post by Michael Stride » Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:45 am

I propose that all protests at ISSA events should be preceded by lying down in the middle of the racecourse until the racer is happy with the judgement.

Maybe I just felt sorry for Jon Drummond bacause I know what it feels like to end up lying on my back in the middle of a race course. Switzerland was fun. I'd still love to know where I placed...

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Post by Chris Eggers » Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:28 pm

--I'd still love to know where I placed...--

that´s easy: in the middle of the....(sorry)
easier: behind me... (sorry again)

no, Jadranko wrote me an email that he would send me a list today, Nothing happened yet. I am still hopeful though..........damn.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:26 pm

Michael, the ISSA rules weren’t built in one day. You have to try better to knock them out. About the "should thing" it is taken cared of in the "General rules" where it says, I quote: "In these rules every should is a must." End of quote.

“Rules” is a hard word but we must understand that they can always be tweaked and knocked out if we want to. Rules is nothing more than a base from which you draw final conclusions at a specific place in time. Final conclusions are in fact not the rules themselves but the interpretation of them by a competition committee and the likes. So we shouldn't be afraid of the rules as much as of those skaters/organizers who will take the final decisions from them.

Just look in real life. The rules and their intention is one thing but it is the lawyers who decide.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:31 pm

Did I ever mention I'm a genius? Yeah, it's true. I'm so incredibly clever that most of the time my head hurts trying to take it all in. Why, just last night I was standing around with some of my buds down at the Cracker Barrell taking a smoke break (where by the way I took in almost NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS in tips) when I suddenly realized what a marvelous thing mathematics really is.

To not get too complicated, let's just say that my course drawings are a three step process: layouy the course, prepare the course for display and then convert the image to a .JPG so it's available for viewing on the web. I realized I had made a mistake when I remembered that I layed out the course orginally at ONE HUNDRED PERCENT and then REDUCED the image anywhere from SIXTY to FIFTY PERCENT for display. Caught my mistake yet? Yeah, I did the SCALE originally and then reduced the whole layout. So, if you followed my scale where I said, "One Inch =6 Foot", you'd end up laying out courses with the cones THREE FEET APART. Now, I know that's ok with the British and Italian guys, but over here we like some distance in our wiggle. So now I have corrected my mistake and altered the scale to a little bit more accurate proportions. I think that if you downloaded and printed my layout at 100%, the cones, the scale and the street would be almost right. Certainly better, though, than setting up 30 cones in the space of less than 90 feet. I think that's a little too tight for anyone!

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:35 pm

Another one for today. This is a little bit more of a "traditional" Giant Slalom. There's still a curve, but it's more wide open, got some big switch-back offsets and a neat little wiggle stinger at the end:

Image

Again, I think this one takes a good hill with some traction. I think my next little ditty that I do I'll call "Super Giant Slalom For All Those Folks Who Bought Avila Wheels." That one might be a zinger.
Last edited by Wesley Tucker on Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:18 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:55 pm

Ok, here's a big one. Notice THAT THE SCALE IS MUCH DIFFERENT. According to my calculations this course covers over 600 feet, including the push start. Tight cones are 6.5-7 feet apart and the offsets are WAY OUT THERE. This is a good one to really open up and just "sidewalk surf" down the hill. If you've ever had daydreams of being Jean Claude Killey or Phil Mahre, this one will make your dream come true. (Did Killey slalom or was he a downhiller? Makes no difference. He'd have fun skating this one too!)

Image

I'm going to do another one on this same scale, only it'll be a strict "rhythm course." Regular offsets, regular spacing. Some would say boring, but I say it's a course that'll let you dance and find a good beat. To me, that's the sign of a good course: a good beat and easy to dance to. That always gets at least an "8" on American Grandstand.
Last edited by Wesley Tucker on Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:18 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:06 pm

Here's one that's a little different. It's a BIG COURSE, probably 800 feet long if you layed out the whole thing.

BUT, don't lay out the whole thing. This course is very regular with every cone spacing being a multiple of 7 feet. It's either 7, 14, 21. Also, each offset is measured and regular to provide a very good sense of time, speed and rhythm. By laying out the course both "vertically" and "horizontally" with the yellow grid lines, it's easy to see how the course follows a predetermined pattern:

Image

Also, don't always adhere to the scale. If you change the base measurement to 5 feet, 6 feet or even 8 feet, the distances and spacing remain constant. Also, ignore the scale's recommended horizontal offset and determine your own distance, just make sure that distance is measured in terms or 1/2, 1, 1-1/2, etc.

One last point. As I said, don't think of this course as a "whole." Lay out all the cones if you want, or just lay out portions of it. Then rearrange the start and finish lines. The concept, though, of regular rhythmic slalom remains constant througout the design.

Although I do believe irregular spacing and haphazard offsets have a place in slalom skating, so does prescribed rhythmic racing. It's all good and we shouldn't necessarily disregard one style of course over another.

Ah, I almost forgot. This course MIGHT work on a steeper hill, but I'd keep it kind of medium at best. Some of those wide offsets come down to a sharper, tighter string and you want to watch your speed coming back to the centerline.
Last edited by Wesley Tucker on Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:18 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Michael Stride » Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:10 pm

I have been thinking about this course for a while, I call it a UK Summer course:

.""""".""""".*****.""""".""""".""""".******.

where " = rain and * =sunshine

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Post by John Gilmour » Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:43 pm

I keep ending up on the wrong side after gate 9. WT do you have a fax so I could send you a course or two?

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Post by Michael Stride » Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:18 pm

I tried a couple of your courses yesterday, but got fed up running back up the hill after every 10 cones or so.

Am I doing something wrong?

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:39 pm

John,

Thanks. Easily fixed. It just means the dreaded "Left Hand Entrance." Oooohh. I have a fax, but only to RECEIVE. It's old, tired and just barely transmit. It hasn't had any paper in it for 10 years.

Michael,

I don't know. Are you following it top to bottom, left to right? The cones are numbered, so the layout should be continuous.

You are going to the second column to continue laying out the course, right? :smile:

I double checked my layouts and can't see where I missplaced a cone that leads to a wrong side turn. Then again, with your sense of humor, I can't tell if you're serious or if you're yanking my chain?

Let me know what what's really going on. This is, after all, a work in progress (like everything I do,) and I am putting these up online without a proof (everybody needs a good copyeditor!). As we all know, all it takes is ONE CONE on the wrong side to ruin the rest of the hill. Thank goodness John found a problem with Cone # 9. If it was 35, that would mean either redoing the whole thing OR removing one cone and renumbering everything.

Thanks, Jani. :smile:

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Post by Michael Stride » Wed Aug 27, 2003 12:42 am

...Oh I see it now, your meant to join them together.

I wondered where you were finding such wide, short hills.

Of course I'm yanking your chain.

I think it might be fun to get a sheet music book (and 'sheet' doesnt mean country) and do a course to music notes, along the lines of your grids, to music if you see what I mean. The 1812 oveture might be fun. You'd have to actually hit cones when the cannons go off.

Oh dear i've finally flipped.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:00 am

Michael Stride wrote:You'd have to actually hit cones when the cannons go off.
Well, I don't hit cones. Maybe my clean runs would be answered with a fanfare from the "Great Gates Of Kiev?" :razz:

Funny you should mention music, though. I've often thought that some of Gilmour's courses follow the outline of a treble clef!

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:32 am

Michael Stride wrote:I did hear that the courses recently set in Germany were mirror images of each other, and that Jani entered the wrong way. Much as I like and respect Jani, I say tough luck matey, keep your eyes open, and your mind on the ball!!! Correct me if I'm wrong.
Michael, please stop spreading rumours about things you know nothing about. (Remember I'm not the first one telling you this simple practice.)

I didn't have any problem starting alternatively left and right in Germany, and I didn't enter the wrong way. But I do think it is stupid to vary the way you enter. Drawing arrows is a great way to do it, but why not do it in consistant way so that you don't have to explain to the skaters how it works.

And, yes, when you practice or race with less than 10 friends you can have your race anyway. When you race with 100 skaters speaking 10 different languages, it's better to have rules that people know and are prepared for.

/Jani
Last edited by Jani Soderhall on Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Michael Stride » Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:02 pm

Oooooh Jani, get out of bed on the wrong side today...?
Couldn't find the Arrow on the Duvet?

I am not "spreading rumors". Paul Price TOLD me, perhaps he was wrong then, could you clarify? Did you enter the wrong way or not? Actually I don't really care. I wasnt there. What did you think of the mirror courses? Did you like it, lets be POSITIVE here, tell us your view.

As for rules, I see absolutely no reason why a course must, should, whatever, HAS to be as laid down in such an arbitarary fashion. As I said before what is the thinking behind that rule? Its just a rule for rules sake. Why even discuss which way the first cone 'Should' be? Pointless in the extreme.

The other thing I think your reffering to is Martin Draytons problems at a slalom event he went to in France. Again I didnt go. But DID the cone penalty time change? Did he know?

You wernt there either were you? So dont even bring it up. thanks.

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Post by Michael Stride » Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:14 pm

And as for rules, i have never been to any race in Europe where the same rules applied consistantly or the timing was consistant either.

I didnt even realise at the Tunnel race in Switzerland that each lane was timed individually, and that it was possible for the skaters to go whenever they wanted after the start signal. This lead to the guy crossing the line second often being the winner. How confusing was that??? Especially to spectators.

For rules to work they have to be simple, and consistant. As it stands racing in Europe is not consistant.

Another example is that in Switzerland the cone counters were calling cones out if they were 1/2 out of the circle. At another race the cones were marked by dots under the cones, so they could be placed back offset by 6" and on the very edge of being out already.

I enjoy slalom because it is simple. I will strive to make it more so. If your telling me a racer can't even work out which way to go round, especially with an arrow drawn then I think those racers should be in a special class of their own.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:31 am

Michael,

I agree that there is a sort of anarchy regarding rules right now. And it does create problems as you so well described. I will add another good one. Jean-Paul Alavoine though that each course in Paris was timed separatly. He would wait a second or so after his oponent had started before he went for it himself. Well, that was very nice of him.

I agree with you that we want it to be simple. I think you describe very well that right now it's NOT simple. And why? Because organizers are not aware of the ISSA rules and therefor makes a lot of unnecesary mistakes.

Following rules makes things easier, not harder. Then you don't have to waste a lot of time and energy to try and understand how things work every time.

When you talk about just one rule at a time I agree that it's not important if you do this or that. In reality it's not that simple. There are lots and lots of simular examples. And if you add one on top of the other you soon have the interesting definition of chaos.

You seem to be a bright man, Michael. I think you understand what I'm saying here. You're not helping out to make things simple by questioning each and every ISSA rule. Yes it's a little bit difficult to grasp them all but by saying "Let there be no rules" you are actually saying "Let there be a multitude of rulings". How easy is that to grasp?

Let's have a friendly chat about it in Morro Bay. There we will both be in the same situation again trying to figure out the rules and how things will be organized. You may be rest assured that we both will be standing on the start ramps ready to go but not having it all figured out. It's hard enough to figure out how to make the damn course.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:52 am

Well, since this is my topic and y'all are discussing such things, I'll say this.

It's safe to say that every race that's occured in the past two years has been announced and advertised on the Internet. This medium provides an excellent opportunity for COMMUNICATION. That means making available well in advance any RULES needed to make an event run smoothly and competitively.

I agree with Michael that just arbitrarily announcing that all races will start by going to the right of a cone is, well, arbitrary. If, though, a promoter wants that to be in his rules, then say so. If a promoter wants to follow the ISSA rules, then say so. If a promoter wants to emulate FCR, then copy their rules and post them in the same forum where the race is announced. If someone wants your money to organize a skateboard slalom race, then that person SHOULD accept the responsibility of taking an extra 15 minutes and making the rules available in a REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME before the event. I think reasonable is at least a week. I think ideal is over a month. If a promoter is organizing a grass roots event and is doing so free, then when the promoter takes on the responsibility of holding a race then the promoter should make some rules available. It's not really all that hard.

I've been back in slalom now for about 19 months. I've made the rather empirical observation that about 90% of the strife and issues related to our sport is a result of POOR COMMUNICATION. What I can't figure out is why that should ever be an issue with this marvelous medium we have called the Internet.

I will now relinquish the soap box to the next fanatic.

Oh, one thing. Before some self-appointed pontiff decides to ask the question, "well, Wesley, if you feel that way, why don't you do something about it?" My answer is, "have you looked at THIS topic? I'm communicating courses as best as I can. Have you looked at my brochure? I'm communicating the concept of Slalom Skateboard Racing as best I can. Have you looked at the old website for the Folly Beach Race? The rules were written, approved by the promoter and made available for EVERYONE to review."

So, that's what I've TRIED to do about it. Maybe someone might disagree with what I'm communicating, but that's another point entirely. At least it's know WHAT I want communicated.

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Post by Michael Stride » Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:56 am

It was a pleasure to sit down after breakfast and read the two previous posts.

And Wes, I've printed out your great leaflet, and also some of your course plans. I think they can help many people understand whats going on at a race or practice sesh.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:11 pm

Wes,

I agree with you. But have you ever thought of why organizers don't put up there rules in time, if they do it at all?

Answer: Because it's a huge task.

And if they do I bet there are as many loop holes as in Microsoft software. If the only thing you needed to inform was weather to enter the course from right or left side of the cone it wouldn't be a problem. As I mentioned before there are lots and lots of tricky situations that may and does happen during a race.

The ISSA rules was made to help organizers with this task and to make our sport more consistent. Now I don't say: follow the ISSA rules or create your own. But I think it's a good idea if organizers say: We will do this and that our way and for other things see the ISSA rules.

At least that shows that they are aware of the complexity of organizing a slalom competition.

A new era of slalom skateboarding has just started in Europe this year and it's only normal that things are like they are. But as things will grow and racing will get more and more serious so will the pressure on the organizers. At least for the most important competitions. I'm talking about a possible European and even a World circuit. This connected to a World ranking showing your world placement. Maybe the better ones might be invited to competitions and maybe there will be more and more money involved in pro racing. Whatever, it will for sure be more status in it and you can bet that some rules, how minim that they may be, will start to play a more and more important role.

That was the situation in 1994/95 in Europe. It was a battle for the first place in the ISSA ranking between Matsukevich, Ridoli and Giammarco among others. They put in a lot of effort to improve their skating and it wouldn't have been fare if someone got advantages because of funny rulings. They knew what to expect and they trained for that and that alone.

That was probably one of the reasons why Ridoli was so disappointed when he entered a race in Switzerland last year. The racing scene had changed. Ridoli hadn't. And going to a competition where things are not as you expect will probably make you underperform for the wrong reason. And it will not encourage you to take the risk again.

Man, i'm starting to write a book here. Even though I'm not near to some of JG's posts though. Lucky you.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:48 pm

Hans,

I have to disagree with you. First off, let me be very straightforward: I am a professional writer and pre-press (desktop publishing) person. So maybe what I consider "easy" others might consider "hard." But this is the way I see it IN THE FUTURE with skateboard racing -

There are many SETS OF RULES already written and available on the World Wide Web. Whether it be ISSA, some grass roots events or FCR's regulations, the rules are out there for anyone to find, read and understand.

If a PROMOTER wants to hold a race, all it takes is the few minutes to peruse the Web, read the rules already published and CUT AND PASTE into a new race announcement. If the promoter wants to then add or delete something in particular peculiar to his race, then that can be done without too much effort.

When I said it was important for a promoter to include rules for his event, I didn't mean that every race required a new set of rules from the outset written from to bottom from scratch. I meant PUBLISH WHAT'S REGULATING THAT PARTICULAR EVENT. If nothing else, a sentence reading "ISSA rules will dictate all aspects of the event" with a link to the ISSA web site and that's it. No one should then come to the race and be confused about how the timer works, which side of the cone to go around or how far out of the circle a cone has to be for it be discounted from total time. That just shouldn NEVER be a matter of dispute AFTER the race starts.

Again, maybe I'm being too hard and what I take for granted in word processing someone else would find completely unintelligible. BUT, I have a feeling that if someone can get on the web and surf around, then they have to have a minimum of typing and word processing skills. That's all it takes.

Hey, for those of you in Europe who aren't familiar with American customs, this Monday is our LABOR DAY. That's a holiday set aside in celebration of American Labor. So, to celebrate Labor we do nothing. Go figure. Anyway, Saturday we have a race in Georgia (about 200 miles from my home,) and then Sunday and Monday I have company from out of town for both days (a woman. Really. She's hot, too! :smile: After all that, sometime next week I'm going to try my hand at a new course: equidistant dual course racing AROUND A CURVED STREET. It should be quite the challenge.

It's probably impossible, but I'm going to try it.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:41 am

Wes, going away are you. Good. Then I can have the last word for a while. :smile:

If it's so easy how come we have this discussion?

You disagree with me you say but I don't understand with what.

I have been waiting on a rules section on this forum for ages. That's the place where we should have these discussions. I'll ask Jani for it. There we should have links to all the different existing rules used out there. There we could have our fights of what we think is right and wrong. Complain about unwanted results from current rules and propose new inovating ideas. There organizers could easily find basic rules from others and add there own if wanted.

This is how I can imagine it...

Code: Select all

Rules section
   General rules
      (Talk about rules that are independent
       of disciplines.)
      [ISSA]
      [FCR]
      [...]
   Discipline rules
      (Talk about specific rules for a 
       specific discipline. Explaining what
       makes it a discipline.)
      [ISSA] Tight
      [ISSA] Special
      [ISSA] Giant
      [FCR] Tight
      [FCR] Hybrid
      [FCR] Giant
      [FCR] Cross
      [Discussion] 100 cones
      [Discussion] Virtual
      [...]
   Competition formats
      (Talk about different ways of running 
       a discipline. Different head to head 
       formats and the likes.)
      [Head to head] Ladder
      [Single lane] Hang man
      [...]
   Organisation
      (Giving tips about organizing 
       competitions. Share with others the 
       things that worked out really well 
       and maybe also what didn't work out 
       so well. Talk about anything needed
       around a competition and what we 
       would like to see in the future.)
   Rankings
      (Links to existing rankings and their
       rules.)
      [FCR]
      [Discussion] World ranking
      [...]
Sorry for littering this topic with this. I like this topic for what it was originally intended. If we get the new rules section above I will tell Jani to move some of the posts in this topic over to the new one. That should be done also for many other topics and posts throughout the forum by the way.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hans Koraeus on 2003-08-29 18:47 ]</font>

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Post by Michael Stride » Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:37 pm

Wes, I thought you might like this.
I turned up to our Sunday sesh, Paul Kelleher, of this parish, is strolling along with one of your courses tucked just showing in his pocket. You've started something.

I will have your leaflet ready from now on, we are gettin a ton of people asking questions. Thats great, and thanks!

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Post by Michael Dong » Mon Sep 01, 2003 6:11 am

Great constructive stuff here. Good job guys!

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:28 am

Ok. The weekend is over. A day of skating, a night of football and two days of baseball and hanging out with a really nice babe. What more could you ask for from three days? Oh, and did I mention the steak dinner at one of Charleston's finer eating establishments?All in all a rather enjoryable three days.

Hans,

This isn't meant to produce a contradiction, just a way to clarify what I said. Originally, I had said on 08-28 at 21:52, "That means making available well in advance any RULES needed to make an event run smoothly and competitively."

To which you responded on 08-29 at 10:11. " I agree with you. But have you ever thought of why organizers don't put up there rules in time, if they do it at all?

Answer: Because it's a huge task."

Afterwards, I followed up on 08-29 at 16:48 with, "I have to disagree with you. First off, let me be very straightforward: I am a professional writer and pre-press (desktop publishing) person. So maybe what I consider "easy" others might consider "hard." But this is the way I see it IN THE FUTURE with skateboard racing -

And finally you said on 08-29 18:41, "You disagree with me you say but I don't understand with what. "

So, in reviewing this I think where the confusion developed was in me not making clear that I disagree with you that making and posting RULES for a races is a huge task. I don't consider it that complicated. I hope composing this little sequence clarifies my line of thought when I said I disagreed with you.

P.S. Michael, thanks for the update. I am after all an artist. All I live for is the applause of an appreciative audience!

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Post by John Gilmour » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:26 am

I think it is great to argue about rules on the internet so you have more time to spend racing at races.

I think those pre printed courses will start something. There should be link to this thread from the Newbie area.

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