ISSA - International Slalom Skateboarding Association

Any help i could get would be appreciated.
I'm just looking for a dual lane timer for the gang up here to use for practices. Options for lower dollar timers seem limited.....all i can find is Trakmate for an easy to use system.
But other than the unit itself, do i buy the start/stop switches from them too?....how about the line?......anybody have any advice before i order one?

Chris,

Trakmate does not sell a "complete" timing system. You still need to add wire and tape switches.

Here's a comparison of two timing systems:

viewtopic.php?t=771&start=50

The Chronocone system might be suitable for what you want, but there is a bit of overhead (laptop, assembly, etc). And it takes more playing/training to get it going well.

The Chronocone hardware can be built by yourself by canabalizing a "game pad" that connects to the computer. (Connect your tape switches to the button inputs on the gamepad). Stanziale has done that.

See the software here: http://home.comcast.net/~pchewn/

Send me an email if you have questions....

-- Pat

Trakmate is still the "one and only" if you don't want to go with a timer based on a computer.

Marcus Seyffarth has proven that the PC based timers (his own and Chronocone) are inaccurate, which strongly discourages me from using them anymore.

Trakmate is an all-in-one time, except that you need the cabling and pressure strips from another supplier.

I've been trying to obtain a new Trakmate system that connects to a PC to give the final times once obtained, so that we continue to use software for what software is good for and hardware, where only hardware seems to be accurate enough. I don't have a price tag for it yet, but I will probably order one soon.

viewtopic.php?t=2222

An alternative route that I'll be investigating soon is if one of my employees can build me a hardware timer that connects to a PC (and only works with a PC). I want it to completely controlled by the PC, but do the timing itself as Windows does not seem to do the job correctly. Then I would use the EttSexEtt software to run the timer and the bracketing. That would be ideal.

/Jani

Jani Soderhall wrote:An alternative route that I'll be investigating soon is if one of my employees can build me a hardware timer that connects to a PC (and only works with a PC).

Jani,
Something with a USB connection would be “ideal” so that it works with both Mac and Windows. I know from my personal experience that there are a lot of people in the skateboard racing world that use Mac.

Sure, USB was my idea too.

If the project works out it would work just as well with a Mac, but then you'd have to write the whole software around it. If it runs on the PC it could use the software that Marcus has written and refined over the years. The program has all the features you want.

Hmm, maybe I shouldn't talk any more about this project until I have assured that it can be done.

Note, this is a timer for races only. For practice you better use Trakmate, it runs standalone on the sidewalk.

/Jani

So which is the least expensive timing system on the market right now. Something similiar to the trackmate. I am would like to purchase one ASAP. Eddy Texas Outlaws.

Hi Eddy...what i found out is that Pat Chewnings is the least expensive one if you already have a laptop....he'll send you the software and instructions on how to make your own switches from video game controlers. The reason we didnt go that way is because i know how we are and we'd break a laptop within a couple months. The Trakmate was more durable. The Trakmate itself is inexpensive, but the lines/switches can get costly, so it's good to shop around. We were interested in a used one at first too, but for a buck and a half, the head unit wasnt too expensive and at least if something went wrong early on, we could just call the manufacturer (who's a nice dude)...The Chicago guys have theirs (Trakmate or something similar) mounted inside of a plastic toolbox shell which is pretty cool because it makes it much more water and impact proof. I'd say if you're getting something for everyday use, go Trakmate....If you're getting something only for races, go with a Chrono........also, according to Trakmate, they wont be offerering anything that can be interfaced with a computer due to a lack of demand, so unless your a techie, that's a wash.

Christopher Bara wrote:according to Trakmate, they wont be offerering anything that can be interfaced with a computer due to a lack of demand, so unless your a techie, that's a wash.

This is worrying news. I posted a request a long time ago and effectively it did not yield enough interest, but I think we HAVE TO move in this direction, no matter what the coest might be, so I'll contact him and see just how difficult it is.

Next week I'll also research the possibilities of making my own PC connected timer. If Trakmate doesn't go there, somebody else has to.


I'll repeat again, on a side note, that I don't want to use software only timers as they have been proven to give incorrect results, both Chronocone and EttSexEtt (when compared to TrakMate which is believed to be accurate). It seems I'm the only one upset about this).

/Jani

Jani,

I agree that a self-contained HW timer with ability to download times to a PC would be great. Lynn Kramer has built a self-contained timer that has the possibility to upload times to a PC (with some more development work). You might contact her.

As far as software timers (Chronocone and EttSexEtt), I believe that your words "proven to give incorrect results" may be a bit too sure/strong. My tests have shown good accurate results for Chronocone compared to a calibrated external timebase ... but other tests showed different results ......

-- Pat

I agree that it would probably be the best with a standalone timer unit that is connected to the computer.

Pat, about the testing part you still havent provided any data about how the test were performed more than stating that you have accurate expensive stuff at work that could be used. From what I understood you placed 2 tapeswitches next to each other and ran them over with the speed you could get indoors and then concluded that since the first tapeswitch always responded before the second at least the system would always tell who's the first guy over the line. Since slalomskateboarding is about 2 runs most of the time, whos first over the line is less important, it's the total combined time that counts. Often one of the two courses are slower than the other.

Anyways I said it before the worlds, I said it during the worlds and I said it after the worlds. And since no one responded I'll say it again.

**********************************************************************
A cyberslalom course in 9 seconds gives an average speed of 5,9m/s ((174feet*0.305)/9). This means you travel 6mm or 1/4 of an inch per 1/1000 sec.

2 questions for you:

1) what are the odds that 3 persons out of 15 that run a cyberslalom course under 10 seconds happen to get the same time down to 1/1000 of a second?

2) what are the odds for 1 person to have three consecutive runs to the same 1/1000 of a second?

This is what happened at the worlds. Not enough granular timing or a bunch of robot skaters you tell me.

***********************************************************************

Windows is not a run time environment and using Visual Basic you can't set thread priorities. That is partly why the times won't be accurate using such a system what ever mumbo jumbo you say.

It is great fun to have something easier to use than the old stuff and its perfect for training, smaller events and all. But when it comes to winning world titles, money and setting world records I think it should be decided by accuracy not by luck or if the guy at the timerbooth decided to start cleaning his inbox during the run and this way making the application run slower. Hell I might as well have added an if clause in the timer that decreases all times that are posted by a guy with lastname Seyffarth by 0.5 seconds, you wont know, but if I win using my timer you will be suspicious by now.

I might be a another boring, bitching swede that writes too long posts, but at least I think I have a point and I wish to solve the problem ahead of the season, but the clock is ticking...

Pat Chewning wrote:Lynn Kramer has built a self-contained timer that has the possibility to upload times to a PC (with some more development work). You might contact her.

Great news. I'll write to her!

Pat Chewning wrote:As far as software timers (Chronocone and EttSexEtt), I believe that your words "proven to give incorrect results" may be a bit too sure/strong.

You may be right, and it would be such a relief if you were absolutely right, but as long as there there is a doubt I prefer not to use it.

Once my flu is gone and I can get back to work I'll get started on some research.

/Jani

As far as skaters needs go, i'd have to guess Pats Chrono system would be the way to go for a staged, structured race. From what i have heard the original bugs were worked out. We ended up with a Trakmate because it's more of a system we can bounce around every week for practices and it's more durable than a laptop. All we needed was a simple set up.
Fadell was at the Pump Station where they were using Lynns timer and he said it was the nicest set up he had personally seen yet, but it wasnt something they were planning on mass producing, just something the set up for themselves. (damn ingenuitive though)

Just wanted to give anyone who is interested in a new Trakmate Timing System a little heads up. Daniel (who I worked with to develop the Trakmate system) has just completed 5 new timers...2 are already sold. If anyone is interested, I suggest contacting Trakmate soon at the provided link below. Yes this timer features the beep start option. I believe its version 4.01 which is the most current. This may vary well be the last run of this version. Being that he primarily builds slot car timers; the next version (5.0) is going to be designed to work with skateboards and slotcars with several different interfaces.

We have used the Trakmate system at all major Farm races w/ virtually a 100% failsafe record. The few errors that have occurred were...human ones.

I'm no longer building complete systems as I feel the end-user should build them so they can fix it in a pinch. You can now buy them directly from the manufacturer for $150. It comes with instructions. All you need is wire, tapestrips, RJ6 jacks and a crimping tool. It's really easy with a basic understanding of wiring. I will gladly answer any questions. My only recommendation is not to try and fit 1000' of wire on the orange spool from Home Depot. The spool works excellent with 800'-900' of wire... any more you risk the possibility of a major tangle, which I have witnessed twice.

Why I would buy a trakmate?

Easy to set up
Inexpensive
Reliable
1/100 of second times
Clocks are very accurate. Some laptops are not
You can record the times directly into a spreadsheet and record them manually to ensure all data is backed up.

Trakmate E-Fomercial

Link to buy direct...

http://www.infoserve.net/oss/slotcar/sports/index.htm


PS. Also, for anyone who builds a system...make backup wires for everything. This is very easy/cheap to do and could save your ass during a race.

See you on the hill.

Tway

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Marcus Seyffarth wrote:....snipped.....

1) what are the odds that 3 persons out of 15 that run a cyberslalom course under 10 seconds happen to get the same time down to 1/1000 of a second?

pretty slim, but at the Farm in the vintage race Jason Mitchell and I tied at the line for raw time with 21.000 seconds. Which was significant because it was single run sudden death. Though both of us thought we did not cross the tapes at the same time. I thought I had a tiny lead...but that was eaten up by a cone I hit anyway.

I do wonder how with a common start two racers can cross their respective second tape switches at the finish at different times and still register the same time?
-or can we like in science assume that it is only accurate to the least significant digit ie. 1/100th sec.?

I've been trying to work out the scenario in my head and have gotten stuck.

They messed up the timing, at least in the Vintage. The timer was set to start the lane timers individually, not at the start of the beep. I beat Hollien by some amount to the line but the results showed that he actually had a faster run time. Reason: His time only started when he crossed his tapeswitch, not when beep started. JG, you can sleep in peace now...

William Tway wrote:You can record the times directly into a spreadsheet and record them manually to ensure all data is backed up.

How and starting from which release?

/Jani

You can manually record times directly into a spreadsheet and record them manually onto a piece of paper to ensure all data is backed up.

sorry for any confusion

Thanks for the new post. Realizing the Trakmate is built about a 25 minute drive from where I live put me from 90% gonna buy one to 100% gonna buy one.

jb

Since Tway isn't the "guy" anymore for TrakMate, I don't want to tie up his time on the phone getting answers, so I'll come here.

I'm piecing together a system and have just one question about the tape switches. I found this website and am assuming this is where we get what we need to make TrakMate work for us:

http://www.tapeswitch.com/

Now, here's the question: do you have to call and talk to a rep and specify what you need? I can't find anywhere on the web a page to order a "36" Tapeswitch" or any other length. Plus, the website lists no prices. (Tway has said that 36" is preferable to 48" if you're going to be taping it to start ramps. Also, that extra foot isn't needed. Hey, if a skater misses misses a 3-foot window to trip the tape, then maybe slalom isn't the sport for him?)

Any insight from anyone would be helpful.

P.S. Oh, if another business is the common tape switch source, I'd appreciate the lead. Thanks.

Following up on WT's post, I'm putting together a TrakMate down here in Oz. Finally we'll have some timed races!

I had the same questions as WT regarding the tapeswitches.
But my other question is in regard to the wire cable you use between the tapestrips and the timer. What sort of cable do you use? Will normal phone wire work? Or is there some specific type?

Cheers.

Wesley Tucker wrote:http://www.tapeswitch.com/

Now, here's the question: do you have to call and talk to a rep and specify what you need? I can't find anywhere on the web a page to order a "36" Tapeswitch" or any other length. Plus, the website lists no prices. (Tway has said that 36" is preferable to 48" if you're going to be taping it to start ramps. Also, that extra foot isn't needed. Hey, if a skater misses misses a 3-foot window to trip the tape, then maybe slalom isn't the sport for him?)

Any insight from anyone would be helpful.

Wesley,

I think that www.TapeSwitch.com is about the only producer that does what we need. Gary Fluitt should be the one with answer to more specific questions. He told me they switches we use would sell for about 50 USD per meter. I think about 75 cm (30-32 inches) would the right width. Don't have too wide ones on the starting ramp. However at the finish line it could be useful to have wider ones >1 m (40 inches or more). Especially in giant and super G. Skaters can still hit the smaller tapeswitches but if you put cones to show where it is it looks very small from a distance and with the wider and longer boards you need a little bit extra space.

I have contacted the TapeSwitch.com representative in France and they would sell any length. The cool things is that you can have them install short cables (1.5 m) coming off the tape switch. I believe this is one of the biggest problems if you would do that yourself. Attaching the cables to the thin metal is not so difficult, but it doesn't stick that well and doesn't stay put for too long. The way they'd attach it it's looking really good. Probably it becomes water proof as well.

On the other end where there is no cable, they have a kind of plug that they place and probably "melt" on. Once again water proof and more solid.

Cables, would normal phone wire work?

I believe virtually any cable would work. I usually just buy the cheapest one I can find. I don't really think there is any need to worry about blinding or so.

A little detail which is quite important is what kind of connectors you use. I always used little mono plugs (similar to the one of older earphones of say a Sony Walkman). These unplug easily and can easily be crushed by a skater. Today we use microphone plugs. Don't remember the name right now, but I'll post a picture later on.

I've also put together a whole schema as to how to connect the whole thing. It is intended for users in Europe with the idea that if we all cable it the same way, all our stuff will be interchangeable. I'll publish it here (but it's at the office).

/Jani

Why don't you just call Tapswitch and find out?
The number is on the website.

I called them a few weeks ago and this is what they told me:

They don't sell specific length tape switches. You tell them what length you want and they make it. (although they do sell it in rolls)

I inquired about a 4' length tapeswitch and they quoted me a price of $39.50+ shipping.

This is for a 4' Controflex, sleeve end, (model 131-A), tapeswitch. Finished on both ends, with wire leads.

Haggy Strom wrote:Following up on WT's post, I'm putting together a TrakMate down here in Oz. Finally we'll have some timed races!

I had the same questions as WT regarding the tapeswitches.
But my other question is in regard to the wire cable you use between the tapestrips and the timer. What sort of cable do you use? Will normal phone wire work? Or is there some specific type?

Cheers.

I use 4-conductor stranded silver satin modular telephone wire. I use RJ-11 connectors. The wire is flexible and this system allows easy on-the-hill repair of connectors.

I've seen other people use solid-conductor telephone wire and it doesn't work so well. The reason is that the wire easily "sets" after being wound on a reel and then fails over time as it is wound/unwound.

See this for some wiring suggestions:
Chronocone 2004 user manual

I use both the 131A and 101-B gage tapeswitches. The 131 is a tad bit heavier and more durable but less sensitive than the 101B.

I forget the model of phone wire I use but it's not the cheap home-depot stuff (stay away from that) the stuff I use comes from Graybar Electrical Supply and is a very high grade. Each individual wire (4 in all) is individually stranded and is flexible. A little on the pricey side but well worth it. I've been using the same 1000' of wire for nearly 5 years with only one break...and that happened when I loaned it out so I'm not exactly sure how it got cut.

Thanks a lot for the info guys.

I'm looking forward to slaloming with a timer - what a novelty!

I love the TrakMate!

After the initial hassles setting it up with wires and connecting the whole thing (which thank god my good mate Bugs took charge of) the TrakMate has been pure pleasure to use.

We've already had three races with the timer here in Sydney, Oz, and are looking forward to having heaps more.

Check out results and photos through www.charliedontskate.com and the 'coneheads' thread.

Chris Barker wrote:They messed up the timing, at least in the Vintage. The timer was set to start the lane timers individually, not at the start of the beep. I beat Hollien by some amount to the line but the results showed that he actually had a faster run time. Reason: His time only started when he crossed his tapeswitch, not when beep started. JG, you can sleep in peace now...

So I won to the line in raw time- maybe not.......likely I lost be even a larger margin since I had a good start...and paced...which of course is deadly if the timed lanes are individual....hahaha But the question is by how much...I did hit a cone. I did think racing the current World Champ and tying while being out of shape and not practicing or skating was too good to be true- so now I know.

William Tway wrote: The few errors that have occurred were...human ones.

- I've made a few human errors myself.....most notably on Vlad's time at the July 4th race several years ago...who would have thought he would get so fast so quickly? We just assumed his time was confused because it was so unexpectedly quick- after that we realized Vlad was very fast.

William Tway wrote: I use both the 131A and 101-B gage tapeswitches. The 131 is a tad bit heavier and more durable but less sensitive than the 101B.

I was wondering....on USA buses we have tapeswitches to signal a stop request to the driver. Can those be used for the track mate? They have a bus graveyard with parts available for the asking.

So I just ordered a Trakmate timer with the cable and spool. I also ordered 131a tape strips from www.tapeswitch.com. (The trakmate with IR beams was just too pricey for me.)It should all be here in a couple weeks and I'm stoked!!

Daniel at Trakmate told me that the wire would just be bare at the end. Hopefully I can figure out how to attach the tape strips with no problem, but I may be asking for advice in a bit once I see it all for myself, etc.

Lenny Poage wrote:Daniel at Trakmate told me that the wire would just be bare at the end. Hopefully I can figure out how to attach the tape strips with no problem, but I may be asking for advice in a bit once I see it all for myself, etc.

You'll figure it out for sure! Tape switches are typically made of two sheets of metal with an isolating layer in between. Just attach one cable to each. It's as easy as that.

/Jani

Does Trackmate support time difference (and lane winner) measurement for parallel?
Or is this just based on measuring full times of both lanes and then manually calculating difference?
If yes how setup is done?

Sj Kalliokoski wrote:Does Trackmate support time difference (and lane winner) measurement for parallel?
Or is this just based on measuring full times of both lanes and then manually calculating difference?

I'm sorry we left this post unattended for such a time...
No you can only get the full time for each racer and then you have to do the math yourself.

/Jani