Do you have a slalom Favorite?

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John Gilmour
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Post by John Gilmour » Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:29 pm

What type of slalom do you enjoy doing most? How long have you been slaloming? Was this type of slalom always your favorite?

What is it about a particular slalom course that gets you reved and makes you look back up the hill feeling like you have accomplished something great?

Jean-Michel ATTIA
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Post by Jean-Michel ATTIA » Tue Jun 03, 2003 6:29 pm

Fast Tight Straight/Offset (FTSO !) on flat or downhill; it's perfect for my (little) body, my (little) weight, my (little) legs and my (little) slalom board !
My first slalom contest (and first defeat !) was in March 1977 against...José DE MATOS !
I remember a slalom session in Marseilles in 1979 with top french racers like Steph Assueid, Ducreux, Mitrano and others...I was in top form with very angry style on my Turner and during 3 consecutives runs, all the skaters around watched me without speaking; my friend Steph came to me and said: "Jean-Mi, it's just perfect !".
Two week later, i stopped slaloming for a long time...

Wesley Tucker
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Jun 03, 2003 6:33 pm

JG,

You rode the course I like at Folly Beach: fast, rhythmic, long (if you have the room for it,) and dual.

I understand hippers and disrhythmic offsets and what they attempt to do, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I think Slalom should be a dance, not a run through a pinball machine. Find a good beat, keep the rhythm in your head and follow the sound all the way to the bottom of the hill.

Syncopation is a good thing now and then, but don't forget that even a syncopated beat has to follow the rhythm. I guess what I don't like is a good 4/4 course that half way down throws in a measure of 9/8 time just to see if you're paying attention!

Ever see the movie "Yellowbeard?" Towards the end Graham Chapman starts following the map on his kids head looking for his treasure: "step, step, stagger, stagger, stop, fall, roll, crawl, crawl, step, leap, stagger, roll" and so on. If a course has that kind of spacing, then for me it's not really slalom, it's more of an obstacle course. I don't like obstacle courses. If I wanted to run obstacle courses I would have been a fuckin' Marine! Instead, I decided to slalom.

If a course setter is tone-deaf and thinks Percy Faith is a queer religion, then maybe he needs to reconsider his vocation? I want a coursesetter who gets up every morning to Earth, Wind and Fire with some James Brown thrown in. If that kind of rhythm and attitude is brought to the hill, then my gut feeling is everyone will have a good time.

Remember: the object is to RACE, not kill yourself at avoiding cones.

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Post by Matthew Wilson » Tue Jun 03, 2003 6:50 pm

If a course setter is tone-deaf and thinks Percy Faith is a queer religion, then maybe he needs to reconsider his vocation? I want a coursesetter who gets up every morning to Earth, Wind and Fire with some James Brown thrown in. If that kind of rhythm and attitude is brought to the hill, then my gut feeling is everyone will have a good time.

Remember: the object is to RACE, not kill yourself at avoiding cones.
I have not been slaloming long enough to have put it so precisely, Wes! I agree here. I think that when I slalom, half of the experience for me is the sound of my wheels on the pavement. I find that I do everything better (pumping, getting around offsets, going faster, etc...) when I can make out a rhythem that appeals to me.

That brings me to another thought...imagine slaloming deaf! I don't know if I could do it.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: matthew wilson on 2003-06-03 12:51 ]</font>

Adam Trahan
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Post by Adam Trahan » Tue Jun 03, 2003 6:50 pm

I have limited racing experience having only raced WLAC TS and Elsinore FCR. Both of these courses were sort of the same to me with the exception of Elsinore being faster.

I really enjoyed myself at Elsinore. The course was a challenge, it was a push start (I have yet to ramp start) and I am used to this. There were some cones that were a challenge and well, toward the lower third of the course, you were blitzing cones quickly.

I was seeded against a fast racer, John Raivitch. He got the start and pulled away from me for the first third. I am a horrible start and it takes time to make it up but toward the last half of the course once we were up to speed, John did not continue to pull away from me, I kept up in the fastest portion of the course.

Michael Dong actually gave me the opportunity to race again, funny. I was beaten on my first race, I thought it was "game over" and took off my pads. Michael goes, "you have another race! where are your pads?" and explains to me how you run both courses. I scramble and am able to make my second opportunity in the 16 bracket.

I posted a faster time and now I want to know how I did, see below.

What I am getting at is that if I did decide to practice like a good Catholic goes to mass, I would improve and probably be able to make an 8 cut here and there.

Back to the question, I like WLAC TS and Elsinore FCR, what ever kinda course you would call them. Fast and challenging...

BTW: I am still unable to acquire the official results from FCR Elsinore. I have contacted Don O'shei with no response and have contacted Eric Lee the coordinator and anyone else who would listen, no one has the official results or are willing to allow them to be posted at this time. At this point, several weeks after the race is over, I think the official results are in question. The bottom line is that the race was fun but the results have not been disclosed or a reason for the delay. The lack of official results from FCR Elsinore works against FCR 2003 series, fun no less.

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Post by Brian Morris » Tue Jun 03, 2003 10:25 pm

My favorite type of slalom is either flat, or very very mellow incline, S-curve 6 foot between cones. Very rhythmic and very groovy.

Ive only been slaloming for almost a year, and I love it. I only with i started earlier.

Brian

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:25 am

As I see it there are two main ways of doing slalom: The cruizing way and the racing way.

The main difference between the two is that when doing it the cruizing way you seek the good feeling, joy and nice lines. When doing it the racing way you seek efficiancy, speed and maximum force.

We all probably like doing the two but to demand the two of them at the same time is difficult. When racing is comfortable you are not pushing yourself hard enough. When you are trying to cruize a slalom course you are not fast enough.

Just like a racing car your racing board is not done for comfort. It's done for getting you through the course as fast as possible. And just like a Rolls Roys your cruizing board is made for an enjoyable ride. To give you a smooth ride.

This shows also in the market of boards. Some are done for racing and others for cruzing. When looking for a good race board you can't go on good feeling. Only a timer will give you the answer. A cruize board you can select easily but it will not necessarily be to your advantage if you race with it.

So should we expect a nice smooth ride when going to a competition or something that will
twist your body and make you fight for your life. I guess the answer will depend on if you go there to race or to cruize. The problem is that competitions as we have them are made for racing. The time is the judge. If we wanted to compete in cruizing I would propose 5 judges judging style and lines.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hans Koraeus on 2003-06-03 19:26 ]</font>

Gary Hornby
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Post by Gary Hornby » Wed Jun 04, 2003 5:25 am

Big FAST GS a la WLAC!!!!!!! Gnarly surface, on edge , nuff said!!!!!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gary Hornby on 2003-06-03 23:26 ]</font>

Rene Carrasco
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Post by Rene Carrasco » Wed Jun 04, 2003 12:26 pm

Gary -
.....I agree - G.S. Hill @ WLAC RACES !
...Whoa yeah ! ! !
...Elsinore was cool...but I was so serious about WINNING ! - I don't think that I had that much fun - too much pressure on myself -Oh well.

NOW....the WLAC G.S. Hill - - - -
it's like when you're flyin' down that course - you feel like yelling -
..."YAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! ! !

See ya @ JPL...

.........-Rene' "Cannonball" Carrasco.

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Post by Patio Mendino » Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:24 pm

I like a crazy hippie surfey snowboardey course.
straight cones, nah mon.
flat course, nah mon.
so fast and on edge that you'll get seriously hurt if you fall, nah mon.
6' centers on a nice slope, yah mon.
a section of straight cones, then some wild offsets to throw you, then back to straights to gather more speed, then more wild offsets, followed by some more straights to zing to the finish. YAH MON. a non-tucker course mon.
then again, the 100 cone course down our big hill here in Athens...doesn't matter how the cones are set, 100 cones with gravity pulling you the whole way freakin rocks!
p

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Post by Chris Eggers » Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:36 pm

I like the kind of course Patio described. Tight offset, off rhythm, flat or slope does not matter. What I don´t like are push starts, foot braking and straight courses that are too wide to pump.

George Gould
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Post by George Gould » Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:43 pm

Whatever it is I like long courses. 25 cones just doesn't do it for me, 50 plus is good. I like fast hills, La Costa's El Fuerte is about perfect. WLAC's big hill can be cool, and Elsinore for me was about as big as it can get. Every time I go somewhere and race I get a new perspective. I learned to deal with faster stuff in the friendly environment of WLAC, if you can make it go! there is much to learn there. I also prefer ramp starts. I don't like pushing in unless there is a long push and then I break the beam after my feet are set. I guess I prefer hybrid courses, it depends on the hill. I don't like kinked up courses.

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Post by Will J » Wed Jun 04, 2003 6:21 pm

Ramp Start, steep hill GS, crazy off rythem offsets with some straights for speed.. 6' spacing = not for me.. faster-harder-louder...

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Post by John Gilmour » Wed Jun 04, 2003 7:30 pm

So we have a pretty wide cross section of courses. Some people like Rhythmic courses and others not.

I think the hill often dictates the type of course to be set. Rhythmic cones help to feel comfortable in the course and are great for gathering speed. For hills that don't have quite enough pitch Rhythmic cones really help to bring up the speeds to the point where some challenging offsets can be tossed in to check the speed. A hill with not quite enough pitch lets a wide cross section of ability levels race as the speed generated is up to the rider- not the hill.

For GS I think it is safe to say that the hill SHOULD be doing most of the speed generation and that pumping will only add say 15-25% of your total speed.

It would be interesting to note how many years (really how many runs- as some people skate really intensely in a short period of time) people have slalomed and what their favorite disciplines are and if they change as they progress.

In non technical TS on lesser grades it is safe to say that Pumping is generating over 50% or more of your speed. Yet on steep techSL courses I would expect that pumping, while still significant, is doing less to up your speed to high levels than is "key" body positioning.

Likely less than 25% of your speed through the techSl course is attributible to pumping and probably a little more on line and body positioning....otherwise no amount of pumping will keep you in the course. (I'm just guessing at the numbers and have no data to back it up).


But it is interesting to see some people wanting Rhythmic cones where some turns are similar in nature right next to one another- and non rhythmic courses were each cone is its own scribed turn.

I think I currently prefer rhytmic courses because they are fun to run to music and can be run at high speeds. Also it is easier to read a rhytmic course identify the speed gathering sections and the speed dumping sections .

Also with Rhythmic courses you can really get the body going one direction before yanking it to another direction- body angulation and planning and strategizing can really be done effectively in rhythmic courses without having had years and years of experience.

From a spectators viewpoint a spectator can identify the different "sections" within a course and watch the racers movements adapt and change to each section as the racer "shifts gears" to optimize for each section (perhaps changing stnace- body movement- arm movement etc). Otherwise it can look somewhat chaotic and random in a non rhythmic course.

Non rhythmic courses do require a planning strategy and often are more a cone to cone affair- and at a certain level require a lot of precision to run very fast if very technical. But I feel the top speeds are somewhat lessened in this type of course.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-06-04 14:01 ]</font>

Vlad Popov
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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Jun 04, 2003 8:20 pm

Super fast GS and Super G are always good. I like going around cones in a tuck. My favorite course is any course on which the top 10 guys’ times are bunched up within point one or point two seconds, and on which starts (more then anything) decide the winners.

6 ft on 11-grade hills are for Piercey-wanna-bees and homosexuals. People with family values shouldn’t wiggle. There is more to slalom then wiggling at 5 cones per second.

Vlad.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Wed Jun 04, 2003 8:25 pm

And another thing: I hope anyone who read my post does not assume that I consider "rhythmic" as being boring and predictable.

Far be it from the truth.

I'm not inferring I like 6' cones with all the offset at 9". That's not it at all. Irregular spacing, complicated offsets, curves and speed chutes (what I call a sling of straight cones for gathering momentum,) are certainly part of the deal. All these components, though, go together in a manner that's rhythmic and coordinated. My course at Folly Beach was pretty simple. Then again, it was a pretty lame hill. Anything other than straight down the course would have sapped speed to the point that skaters would be crawling at the bottom of the street. That's no fun. I thought that JG's GS course at 'da Farm was very rhythmic even though the spacing and hill were anything but predictable. After two runs, though, I was able to find the groove and run it smoothly. Maybe not as fast as I would like, but certainly with determination.

The GS course, though, at Avila Beach was anything but rhythmic. It's a classic example of what I call a pinball machine course: cones everwhere just for the sake of taking up asphalt. At no time in that course was a rider able to find a groove that allowed for "slalom racing." It was in essence a dual obstacle course that prevented skaters from really attacking the course and taking full advantage of their skills and equipment. I don't know about anyone else, but to me that's riding your board through some cones set in the street. Maybe that's fun too, but it's not what I would consider slalom.

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Post by Patio Mendino » Wed Jun 04, 2003 8:38 pm

if I post here again, does that make my preference more convincing or something?
but I guess I am just a "bobby piercy wannabee homosexual" or something.(freekin a r abesque kook)

I like girls. they are curvey like the courses I prefer.
p



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: patio mendino on 2003-06-04 14:52 ]</font>

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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Jun 04, 2003 8:53 pm

Real men don't do TS. Deal with it.

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Post by Patio Mendino » Wed Jun 04, 2003 8:58 pm

REAL men grind pool coping.
*******************
slalom is to skateboarding as fly casting is to fishing.
*******************
you're being just like that "indy guy".

p



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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: patio mendino on 2003-06-04 15:22 ]</font>

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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Jun 04, 2003 9:54 pm

All I do is fill up the vacuum.

John Gilmour
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Post by John Gilmour » Wed Jun 04, 2003 9:54 pm

Eureka! Electrolux? Electroimpact? I'll post my keyboard racer's strategy to Breck after the race.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-06-04 16:04 ]</font>

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Post by Patio Mendino » Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:13 pm

I guess I need a shop-vac with a larger attachment...
heh heh heh

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Jun 05, 2003 6:48 pm

A good personal slalom course is one that test your skills and pushes you to around 90% of your capacity.

A good competition course is one that let's 90% of the skaters making it.

Putting these values into my secret ekvation I get the following result of what people think about a good competition course:
10% Don't like it beacuse it's difficult.
20% Likes it because it's difficult.
30% Likes it because it's easy.
20% Don't like it because it's easy.
20% Just do it.

Result
70% Ok with course
30% Not Ok with course

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Post by John Gilmour » Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:01 pm

At "da Farm 2 there were a lot of people who were trying to go through the course on extremely long boards. The course was not a longboard event. Mostly because the hill did not require a long board to ride it. The course was certainly the most advanced course I have seen people run in competition- though for many their practice courses are far easier. It was good to see a skill level displayed that riders had worked towards. A decision was made to push the difficulty level of the courses higher at that race because so far that year there weren't many advanced techSl courses being run.

That being said I think 'da farm 1 course was very simple. And not challenging for many of the participants at all. To have set 'da farm 1 course level again would have disappointed many riders.

How hard will Da farm 3.0 be? I have no idea as of yet as it is up to the organizers. I know they don't have the road for very long- but I do feel we could try to set a coruse which could have a split in it...like I have suggested for many races where the Pros would either start further up the hill- or the Ams would finish say 2/3 of the course and then cross the finish. In this way it takes almost no more time to reset- in fact all that has to be done is to pick up or add a few cones. If the both Ams and Pros start at the same point and a split time is recorded for the pros the times are nearly directly comparable.

For any practice sessions I do between now and then I'll trying setting these types of split courses and see how it works.

I hope that almost all competitions in the future will try and have two classes. 1st class being an Am class that would likely accommodate boards 38 inches and under slowly and shorter decks faster. And A Pro Shortclass...sounds like Windsurfing? Does anyone know how windsurfing splits its classes?

Paris made the Straight slalom looser. The Special slalom was not technical. I did set a Special Slalom course the night before which I would have thought was pro level, but it was reset as the course had to accommodate both Ams and Pros. In the end the Special slalom times spread out with pretty regular intervals in the results. Had the course been more technical I think Luca would have won by a wider amount, but I was surprised to look at the times and see such even spreads. I think we all expected to see a large gap form between the more practiced slalomers and the newer slalomers.

If the course hade been significantly more tech we might have seen a gap forming somewhere with the times very close at the top and then significantly dropping off somewhere after the top 10 or so riders.

The Straight slalom had Luca winning solidly again (10.58)clean, but Vlad (10.66 raw time) not far behind only a few hit cones, and Dhyan Fisher of Switzerland posting a blistering time just a tenth off of Luca's raw time with only a few hit cones. I only beat Dhyan by 1/100th of a second and I would say that that run was one of my best ones ever. I wonder how Switzerland's Ridoli, Sidler, Diaz would have done? From 1st place Luca to number 16 Jean Paul there was 2.02 second gap.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-06-05 16:04 ]</font>

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Jun 05, 2003 11:43 pm

How did Paris stack up on this point?
Joe, here are the Paris DQ levels. Or actually how many % managed to get a result.

Special (Hybrid)
----------------
Pro 96% (25 Tot, 1 DQ)
Am 96% (26 Tot, 1 DQ)
Comment: According to the Corky rule (90% for a good course) the two special slalom courses (Pro and Am) could have been a little bit more demanding.

Straight
--------
Pro 82% (22 Tot, 4 DQ) (2m/6,5' cone distance)
Am 100% (22 Tot, 0 DQ) (2,5m/8,2' cone distance)
Comment: For the Pro's the 2m distance was a little bit too demandning on the Trocadero slope. On the other hand 2,5m distance for the Am's was to easy. Maybe we should have had 2,1m for the Pro's and 2,4m for the Am's this year?

Giant slalom (Same course for Pro and Am)
------------
Pro 90% (10 Tot, 1 DQ)
Am 95% (21 Tot, 1 DQ)
Comment: Seems like the course was more demanding for the Pro's. Could be logical since the Pro's generally runs it faster. And the last cone was very difficult so with too much speed it was a tuff task.

Overall comment: I don't think anyone can say that the Paris courses where too difficult. I think we can raise the difficulty level of the courses a tiny little step for next year. Except for the pro straight. Maybe we could leave it at 2m for next year again.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hans Koraeus on 2003-06-05 17:53 ]</font>

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Post by Chuck Gill » Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:39 am

Some people calls 'em speed chutes, I call 'em a sling of straight cones mmmmmm.

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Post by Mike Gorman » Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:20 pm

Last night Atilla, Floyd Reid and I ran 6'straight cones on Bicknell Hill in Santa Monica, the famed Z-boys practice spot. This hill is so steep that Rene Carrasco compares it to Signal Hill. Running Floyd's 6' course here clean qualifies you for the Bay Street Cross, tight slalom's highest decoration. Definite 5 cones per second action, by the bottom it is all instinct.
Gilmour, forget Bienveneda, THIS hill will be the crucible for Top Fuel Tight, the future of complete blur slalom in LA county.
You need to check this spot out, this is the place where you can fully unleash all the speed you got,smooth as silk and plenty of runout. And it's on the beach with all kinds of spectators wandering by. Vlad, too may be forced to reconsider some of his opinions about our course preferences when he sees what we are running out here. Cambrias, PVDs, Mid Tracks, needlenoses, very short wheelbases. Bobby Piercy wannabes, step right up.

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Post by Adam Trahan » Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:48 pm

Great post Mike.

I appreciate sharing the info on Bicknell Hill. Floyd and Atilla keep the bar way up there in speed and technique, I enjoy atching these two race/ride. You are fortunate to have both a good spot AND excellent racers to practice with. Thanks again for sharing it here, we all benefit from your words.

Next time I am in the area, I am there. Is this a regular spot or is it imprompteu (sp?)
On 2003-06-06 12:20, Mike Gorman wrote:
Last night Atilla, Floyd Reid and I ran 6'straight cones on Bicknell Hill in Santa Monica, the famed Z-boys practice spot. This hill is so steep that Rene Carrasco compares it to Signal Hill. Running Floyd's 6' course here clean qualifies you for the Bay Street Cross, tight slalom's highest decoration. Definite 5 cones per second action, by the bottom it is all instinct.
Gilmour, forget Bienveneda, THIS hill will be the crucible for Top Fuel Tight, the future of complete blur slalom in LA county.
You need to check this spot out, this is the place where you can fully unleash all the speed you got,smooth as silk and plenty of runout. And it's on the beach with all kinds of spectators wandering by. Vlad, too may be forced to reconsider some of his opinions about our course preferences when he sees what we are running out here. Cambrias, PVDs, Mid Tracks, needlenoses, very short wheelbases. Bobby Piercy wannabes, step right up.

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Post by Mike Gorman » Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:56 pm

Hey Adam,
We are going to try to run Bicknell every Thursday night around 8:30pm. In the summer, we should have some beautiful warm sunset sessions. If there is an event like WLAC or some other race like maybe JPL happening, maybe we will run a weekend session so out of town folks can experience this. The local people absolutley trip when they see us out there. One vagrant actually got mad at us, calling us crazy and telling us we were gonna get hurt. The cops just smile and tell us to be careful.

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