Equal Points ranking- the benefits.

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John Gilmour
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Post by John Gilmour » Thu Mar 13, 2003 8:24 pm

Let's think carefully about the points system- if indeed we only use one system. Jack and Gary's system is a good points system for easy tabulation and is good for those people who can attend many FCR events. It will order the California racers the most accurately amongst their fellow Californians.

*The Dilema*
Given the dilemma of attending a race in England at Brands Hatch (a wonderful racing venue)and going to a FCR race in some place I have never heard about - as a real example, Lake Elsinore, and with a limited amount of money to spend on travel- if I were a points guy- I'd have to blow off Brands Hatch.

*Would this promote Global skating?*
Not very likely- it would likely make California's "vacuum" stronger and competing expensive for non Californians. Remember this is "Poor Man's Formula One". Waiving the entry fees for non Californians would help a little, but not enough and certainly not desireable for the promoters.

*A possible solution.*
So what if we went for an extremely equal model where points are awarded Equally for Each major skating area? We could break up the skating areas by Driving time to try and minimize the amount of flights purchased so that skaters would not feel forced to buy airline tickets if they could not afford to do so. Skaters could attend any contest they wanted to and still get points.

*Regions could be broken down according to drive times-8 hrs. Max.*
West coast (San Luis Obispo- San Diego 8 hours driving time), East Coast North (NH- Washington DC 8 Hours driving time), East Coast South (Florida- the Carolinas 11 hours ), I'd need some ideas on Europe there could be a similar break of regions based on 8 hours drive time.


Here's what I think would happen. The Bulk of California's TOP tier of skaters (Top :cool: would likely still MOSTLY only compete in California in NON BANKED SLALOM events. Yes I realize Smith came over for a race in DC, Dunn and John O for Dave Gales (Coleman, Gorman?),and Bruce Brewington for the July 4th race. The only California Competitor we consistently see coming to the East Coast for street slalom is Chris Chaput.

If points were equal we might see some Second tier Californians (and other non Californian racers not in the top tier) feel tempted to come East or Go to Europe to try and pick up some "extra points" to get on better footing with the top tier Californians. You might see a funny scramble like this occurring near the end of the season- or even during the middle. Also you might see a top tier Californian skater coming to compete because he was not able to attend all the West coast dates and fell behind due to injury/family. You might also see a top tier Californian try to firm up his lead by attempting to go to all the events (And how nice would it be for everyone to be able to see fast non local racers go through the cones at your local venue?)

You might see more fast racers traveling everywhere. You might see no "Majors" race going off without at least 5 fast non locals in attendance (who all think they might win).

*Another important point- how many races?*
Let's say that we were to select 4 races for each geographical region. 2 could be "Majors" and 2 could be "minors". There could be other racing perhaps even for smaller points- this would help reduce ties.
Promoters should try to work together to schedule at least two races in each region on back to back weekends. With at least (1) of the (2) back to back races being a "Major" race. Major races are worth more than Minors- but if someone really wanted to draw people for points they could schedule two Majors back to back. Only 2 majors races and two minors races per region.

*Why we should promote travel.*
It encourages non locals to compete. (not only Californians)
The rest of the World has given credibility to California's World Championships by attending The World Championships in California (otherwise it would have looked like a locals race). How about giving Californians (and others) some good incentive to give credibility to other events outside of California? I know how hard it is to get Californians out of California but we are talking about a sport done best in 65-75 degree weather- and we do have some of that everywhere we skate.

In the 1970's when a good Florida skater like Alan Gelfand went North to drop in at a local park- the locals appreciated it "Did you hear Gelfand was here last week?" It lent credibility to their skating and helped stoke local skating.

Last years Points system made the FCR series look more like Western Conference- it also resulted in some odd bracketing as everyone did not have to qualify on the same course. We saw some people eliminated who should have not had to face hard competition until later rounds, we saw some people who would have been better off not pre-qualifying as they were seeded much to their disadvantage. I'm not saying this system would completely eliminate this- but I do feel it would promote travel to places other than California and grow the competitor base.

*Other Concerns.*
Knowing that putting on a local race would not be weighted as heavily as a FCR race gave less incentive for local promoters to be driven to throw a race on the same date or near a FCR date. With points being equal we might see more racing outside of California.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Possible races- Majors/Minors. Europe*
In the Western Europe Driving division We might see Brands Hatch and the Trocadero (Thanks to the Chunnel) as being 2 majors. And we might see the Flatland UK race and another race as the 2 minors.
Other possibilities- in Switzerland we would see the Grueningen race and perhaps a German race as the two Majors. And two other smaller races as Minors.

*Possible races- Majors/Minors. East Coast North*
On the East Coast North we might see 'Da Farm 3 and a Central Park race as the Majors. And perhaps a New Jersey, NY, CT, VT,NH races as the two minors. (Boston to Florida non stop is 24 hours- way too large to be made a single region.

*Possible races- Majors/Minors. East Coast South*
On the East Coast South- we would see a Race in Florida as a Major and perhaps a Mississippi/Missouri race. Or Dave Gales race, with some other events like Georgia as a minor or perhaps a Miami South Beach flatland race to kick off the racing early season or late season.

*Possible races- Majors/Minors. Colorado/Oregon/Washington* (Colorado being the Ski/snowboard state perhaps deserves its own region)
Colorado would have the Breckenridge race as a Major and perhaps another race could be scheduled in Denver or another ski town like Aspen or Vail or Seattle or Portland. In terms of Travel distance and available cheap off season airfares and hotels Colorado would be a good location for a World Championship mid season when the skiers and snowboarders are looking for this type of activity.

*Why back to back contests?*
Doing the back to back races works in concert with the good weather window as well as reducing air tickets.

*Airports*
Lets try to make the closest airports major airports ones that are cheaper and have more scheduling options- a really good idea for the Majors contests. Minors could be in the middle of no where- but close enough in driving to the Major contest scheduled a week away- preferably the Minors contest would be a Saturday only affair to allow travel time back to the original airport.

Besides it lets the non local meet the locals and stay at locals houses and gives a week of practice with a non local, fosters understanding y'know? Just ask Martin Drayton (A charter member of the International Slalomer Exchange Program)- pronounced EYE-Slept ov'r.

*When to schedule racing- according to the weather*

On the Northern East Coast you would expect to see the middle of the season racing in July and August. ME, NH, VT.

Racing in NY, NJ, CT in Late May- June nothing during the hottest months- then more racing later in Early September.

In the Mid Atlantic States you would see racing in late April - late May and no Major races (minors Okay) until October- Early November.

In Florida we would see racing in Late March- Early May Nothing in the summer months or until after hurricane Season when it is cooler.

It would give East Coasters incentive to go to Florida to race when it was too cold to race up North and incentive for the Floridians and DC crew to escape the oppressive humidity of the summer and race North. I bet the wives would even like it. (Wish I could graph this- it would look a lot better).

A similar thing could happen in California where the Northern areas have their racing in the Summer months and the Southern areas have their racing in the spring and fall.

*WHY EQUAL POINTS?*
It is a pretty bold move- but we should also look to where there has growth in Slalom sales and try to promote competition in these new growth areas as much as possible. Equal points would help to do that by increasing participation on a local level by adding incentive for non locals to compete. Nothing else helps any skate scene more than getting your ass kicked by a non local. (just ask the Locals at Kona or the Redbull NYC event).

Equal Points would get me to go to places like Missouri and give California and New Hampshire wives an excuse to go to Paris- where there is no surf.

This Equal point system would not order all skaters accurately according to their ability level. (But neither has any other points system that we have used).


But it might make competing more enjoyable and perhaps more convenient/less expensive for all of us. IMHO it would help slalom on the local level and generate more slalom sales and participants in the long run.

*Other Benefits*
It would also lighten the load on promoters who are working the hardest (Jack, Don, John, Gary, Brian Parsons, GBJ etc..). It would encourage other promoters who ahve thrown "minors races" to concentrate their efforts on making a good "major" race knowing that there was a likelihood that more skaters than just locals would attend.

*What about ordering the skaters according to ability level?*
From a data base standpoint it is probably easier to do that at the end of the season than to attempt to order the skaters as we go. This model would not help to do this- a statistical array using matrices would probably do best- and the more info we have the more accurate the results.

*What are the points good for?*
A points trophy in Gary's case- or If I were doing this- a trip to The Playboy mansion :wink:

*How about Qualifying for the Worlds?*
For the most fair racing every racer must qualify on the same course. The points system might give us a "bubble" of say 50-60 racers who compete for the top 32 spots. The greater bulk of which, still, will be from California. To try and equalize a bit for this we could have California host 3 Majors and 3 Minors if we were to deviate from being totally equal points recognizing the Califiornians for having a large talent pool and not forcing those who can not afford to travel to travel. This would give Californians 50% more points than other regions.

Just tossing this out- go ahead guys tear it up. I'm just a skater like anyone else here making a suggestion and I am sure there are flaws in it. Be objective- Save the good pieces. Would it improve competitions outside of California?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-03-13 14:42 ]</font>

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Post by Vlad Popov » Thu Mar 13, 2003 8:49 pm

Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

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Post by Glenn S » Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:43 pm

Does that post come in hardbound?

Jack Smith
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Post by Jack Smith » Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:51 pm

The ABC Slalom Rankings were created just to have some fun. Guys, it's all about a $35.00 dollar trophy and a chance to rib each other.

John, once again, some brilliant ideas.

What we all need to do is promote slalom in our local areas. Work with your local recreation department or YMCA. We need to build the base.

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Post by Leonardo Ojeda » Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:04 pm

What about the rest of the world?

John Gilmour
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Post by John Gilmour » Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:18 pm

c'mon Jack- we all want that $35 dollar trophy and we'll spend thousands just to get a chance to get it. :smile:

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:13 am

Trying do make a world ranking is not the easiest thing to do. Especially to try and make it fair and make it possible to compare the ability of all skaters around the world.

I don't know if the ABC ranking was really meant as a world ranking. I guess it must be seen more like a enlargement of the FCR ranking. And as that I'm all for it. As I am for all kinds of possible rankings. There could be an US east coast ranking, European ranking, South American ranking a.s.o.

With the new ISSA world ranking system that ISSA have been working on now and then since August last year we have trying to attack the problem with a simulair approach as John's.

Our current idea is based on the following main ideas.

- There are competitions of different statuses.
- The highest statuses are limited in number and should be scattered around the slalom world scene. The organizers should fight for these precious statuses.
- The lower statuses are unlimited.
- You can only count a certain number of results per year.
- Everybody should have a point. Just by attending you have earned it.

The idea is to first make skaters compete easily in nearby competitions to get to the first goal, maximum of counted results per year. Once this goal is reached you may continue competing to swap out your bad results with better ones.

For better skaters the smaller status competitions may not be the priority. Since you can only count a certain number they will more likely attend the higher status competitions to try and get hold of higher point possibilities. Since these competitions are fewer you will have to travel a little bit more. And the more of these you want to enter the longer you have to travel.

The very best skaters will ultimatly go for the highest status competition. There are only a very few of these. Maybe only 2 per year. Of which one is the World Championship. Ultimatly one on the American side and one on the European side. But you can only count points from one of these competitions of this highest level. But with two attendences you raise the chance of getting a better result and point of course. And by attending both of them you may make it more difficult for others to pick the points.

Also if aiming for a World Ranking I would like to see that it is aministrated by ISSA or other non profitable resource. Maybe right here on "SlalomSkateboarder.com".

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Post by Gary Fluitt » Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:31 am

I like everybody's ideas. I like the major/minor thing, and I like Hans idea about limiting the number of races one can count. John has some good points about how to encourage racing.

The use of "FCR ranked racers" to qualify a race for it's level of competition is a flaw for sure, but honestly, it's the only index I could come up with for fairly qualifying a race.

I like the idea of selecting a few races in every region as either a Major or a Minor race. We need to do that for 2004. Can anyone tell me where the Major and Minor races will be for next year (let alone this year)? I would love it if we were that organized. As it is, we're lucky to have 30 days notice. Mandarino criticized that feature, that we shouldn't even have 30 days notice as a criteria for Pete's sake!

When we came up with this points ranking, my whole intention was award points to guys racing outside the FCR series. I saw what happened at The Bear. It was an FCR points grab at the end of the season that resulted in a lot of guys (myself included) going to a race that I wouldn't have normally raced in. Paul Dunn in a banked slalom race against Hackett? It was beautiful. It was a good thing, and I'm hoping that by awarding points to less competitive events than just FCR, we'll encourage more home grown racing.

Granted we're not awarding AS MANY points to races outside the big super competitive 75-guy FCR races, but that's realistic attempt to fairly reward the level of competition that is obvious in an FCR race RIGHT NOW. Next year I fully expect that only a couple of west coast races will qualify for A status and we'll see some "power shift" off the west coast and move east. It's a "building year" as coaches like to say.

We're looking at your suggestions very closely. I do want to make this better and you guys have some excellent ideas.

So how about we just right now say Da Farm is an A level competition? I don't know if TK/Tway will be happy about this or not considering the crowd it could bring. Da Farm happens in August when nothing is happening out West presently. It would move us toward the Major/Minor concept without completely scraping the ABCD leveling concept.

What's the biggest race in Europe this year (UK is part of Europe for me)?

Gary


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gary Fluitt on 2003-03-14 18:34 ]</font>

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Post by Chris Eggers » Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:48 am

Gary, the biggest race in Europe will most likely be Grüningen. There are well over 30 racers registered right now and the majority of the swiss racers haven´t registered yet. If jani comes up with Paris it will also be one of the bigger ones because of the unique location, but I think Grüningen will be it.

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Post by George Gould » Sat Mar 15, 2003 6:45 am

John, from my prospective where maybe i could have a race with 10 people this year up from 0 last year, there is some progress. and the sad thing is right now I have the hills, just nobody wants to drive out and ride. but man, Gary and jack are doing something and for better or worse i will support them. I will support FCR as best i can. they are doing something and putting out and people just harp...blah, blah, blah. at this point each state could do there own thing, there are no sanctioning bodies. back east there is the USSSF, i guess Euro's are going to resurect the ISSA. what do i know? i only know now, i can't talk from your point of view only my little myopic place in northern Az. in the 80's while you were racing slalom, i was skating a ditch or pool somewhere. i did not even know it was still done. i like slalom and i will support the above mentioned Gary, Jack, FCR with no slight towards anyone. i am going to try to make the farm 04. i just can't swing it this year, but i really do wish you all the best.

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Post by Dan Hughes » Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:32 am

On 2003-03-13 14:24, John Gilmour wrote:

*How about Qualifying for the Worlds?*
For the most fair racing every racer must qualify on the same course. The points system might give us a "bubble" of say 50-60 racers who compete for the top 32 spots. The greater bulk of which, still, will be from California. To try and equalize a bit for this we could have California host 3 Majors and 3 Minors if we were to deviate from being totally equal points recognizing the Califiornians for having a large talent pool and not forcing those who can not afford to travel to travel. This would give Californians 50% more points than other regions.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-03-13 14:42 ]</font>


My only feeling is that the worlds race should have the same format as all the others. Racing is racing. Points are not racing. If a Euro Racer comes for one race, and it's the Worlds. He shouldn't be "seeded" based on his points or lack there of. Rather, everyone should be on equal footing, like any other race, and qualify that morning to determine their seeding placement.

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Post by Eric Groff » Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:39 am

Dan-I believe that is the way it will be for FCR 2003.

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Post by Matthew Wilson » Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:35 pm

I am no expert in slalom, but I do know a fair deal about tennis. JG's description--if I read it correctly-- above is VERY close to describing the system used by the ATP and WTF for establishing world and tournament rankings in tennis. The only difference is that the winner of a grand Slam event is USUALLY the number one seed in that event the following season.

The issue that arises with Dan's suggestion--which I actually like-- is that it isn't conducive to growth. It assumes that races will always be restricted to a managable number of racers. What happens if the sport even doubles in size in terms of the number of racers who participate in major events. There is no way that events can always limit themselves to 50-60 registrants if they expect the sport to grow. As the sport grows, ranking by points will be necessary.
Like the pro tennis tours, there may be a time when 200+ racers come out for an event like World's. At which point there is NO way to qualify every racer in a reasonable period of time.
slalom is good

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Post by Gary Fluitt » Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:36 pm

I can confirm Arab's comment that the Worls's will not be "Pre-Seeded" like it was last year. Everyone will have an equal chance regardless of their points standings. This was straight from the Man, Jack Smith.
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G

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Post by John Gilmour » Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:42 am

Gary Fluitt wrote:I like everybody's ideas. I like the major/minor thing, and I like Hans idea about limiting the number of races one can count. John has some good points about how to encourage racing.


When we came up with this points ranking, my whole intention was award points to guys racing outside the FCR series. I saw what happened at The Bear. It was an FCR points grab at the end of the season that resulted in a lot of guys (myself included) going to a race that I wouldn't have normally raced in. Paul Dunn in a banked slalom race against Hackett? It was beautiful. It was a good thing, and I'm hoping that by awarding points to less competitive events than just FCR, we'll encourage more home grown racing.

So how about we just right now say Da Farm is an A level competition? I don't know if TK/Tway will be happy about this or not considering the crowd it could bring. Da Farm happens in August when nothing is happening out West presently. It would move us toward the Major/Minor concept without completely scraping the ABCD leveling concept.

What's the biggest race in Europe this year (UK is part of Europe for me)?

Gary


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gary Fluitt on 2003-03-14 18:34 ]</font>

reviving and old thread from March.--------

I think we have some hindsight on some competitions and the ones that have been run before likely will have some similar attendance. We might see a points frenzy as the season goes on....and that of course makes it all the more exciting.

My hope also is that some races which are majors may get pumped up with more high level competitors- which for those who are attending a local slalom race for the first time......should make it killer.

I did a lot of traveling in prior seasons as did a few others...I think it will be fantastic to see a group of people traveling- kinda makes me think of of skateboard teams traveling in slalom.
One good turn deserves another
john gilmour

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