SIGNUP FOR PETITION AGAINST FLATLAND SLALOM

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Ramón Königshausen
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SIGNUP FOR PETITION AGAINST FLATLAND SLALOM

Post by Ramón Königshausen » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:09 pm

THIS THREAD IS THE OFFICIAL SIGNUP AGAINST FLATLAND SLALOM ESPECIALLY 1.80m STRAIGHT. WHOEVER FEEL LIKE WE SHOULDN´T HAVE THAT TYPE OF SENSELESS AND UNSPECTACULAR KIND OF COURSES JUST PUTS HIS NAME IN THIS THREAD.

RMN
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Post by Donald Campbell » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:33 am

me

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Post by Carsten Pingel » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:06 am

me 2! But if it rains, better than nothing! :-)

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Post by Chris Iversen » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:09 am

present
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Post by Marcus Rietema » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:14 am

If a flat indoor course is required in a rain emergency, at least there should be some offsets, stingers, etc. Completely straight courses are lame...
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:31 am

Ramon,

Have you forgotten that you're the one with the power in your hands? You've got something stronger than the petition. You're one of the three European ranking marshals. You can decide that races with flat courses are not worthy of the status they've asked for. Use that option, if it's that important for you. Of course, bear in mind, that it may de-motivate some organizers, who in the worst case, will refrain from organizing events, but if it's that vital, YOU can decide it's worth the sacrifice.

Just wanted to remind you that the power is in your hands...

/Jani

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Post by Rick Floyd » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:41 pm

Here here! Feel the power Ramon!
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:39 pm

Simple question:

If you don't like the format, why go to the race?
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Post by Rick Floyd » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:54 pm

Simple answer: WE are the racers...without racers, no race...and WE don't like the format.

Are we not allowed to say that?

We'll see what the verdict is as far as the percentage of racers who are for/against. If the majority of racers are against a format, then why push it?
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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:48 am

i think ramon is one of the riders who reflects the next generation of riders that will define and shape the future of slalom.
as an elder i think it is my duty to listen to any kind of input i can get from people such as ramon or dom.
that's how my brand got as big as it is right now.
things can only be improved when you are willing to listen to any kind of input available.

that's how you improve:you learn!

ramon speaks out what a lot of also seasoned riders think,it's not just some childish or unreflected remark or mood he's in at the moment.

the next coming races that favor flat or boring courses will suffer from this trend.
slalom is going to new levels.
we all can see that when we look back the past 4 years.
it is way faster and way more aggressive than it has been.
riders are constantly pushing the limits and there is no more room for some outdated aspects of the sport if you want to put it that way.
event organizers should follow the trend not work against it otherwise their contests are bound to fail.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:04 am

Rick Floyd wrote:Simple answer: WE are the racers...without racers, no race...and WE don't like the format.

Are we not allowed to say that?

We'll see what the verdict is as far as the percentage of racers who are for/against. If the majority of racers are against a format, then why push it?
You're allowed to say whatever you please.

Just as a promoter can put on whatever race he pleases.

And just as any racer can choose to go, stay home or attend another event.

Personally, I don't fully understand what all is going on in Europe but I can't remember the last flat race scheduled and promoted in the United States. This thread is sort of like signing a petition against grizzly bears: sure they exist but what are the odds of running into one?
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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:14 pm

Jani Soderhall wrote:Ramon,

Have you forgotten that you're the one with the power in your hands? You've got something stronger than the petition. You're one of the three European ranking marshals. You can decide that races with flat courses are not worthy of the status they've asked for. Use that option, if it's that important for you.
/Jani

Jani, I'm fully aware of my "power" and you are right. But there is another reason why I made this post. Let me tell you about it.

Last weekend Dominik and me, we were in Policka at the Slalom World Cup sanctioned "Main Status". When they applied for "Main Status" we gave them the following criteria they should obtain if they want to have a "Main Status":

1st Move the GS to a steeper hill - not fulfilled
2nd Don't run the Special Slalom on the town square - not fulfilled
3rd Don't run the Straight Slalom on the flat but run a Hybrid instead - not fulfilled

So what else can I do as a Status Marshall?

rmn

PS: As you see, I'm not complaining because my results were not as good as they could be (I won overall and I'm very happy) but because I really think that we should abandon flatland slalom. Furthermore, I think that the ISSA should have representatives at each race that have to be respected by everyone. (Now I was more feeling like a racer that goes to complain rather than a Status Marshall suggesting improvements)
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:23 pm

So, the simple "punishment" if Policka didn't live up to your demands for the Main event, don't give them a high status next year. Or at least, weigh that in with all the other factors, like you'd normally do. Sometimes a race on flat with a good audience, good prize money, good etc, could be worth a Main status even if it's on flat. As long as it's announced according to what it'll be, let the participation decide if it's worth it or not.

I can agree that with limited amounts of Main races, it's normal that we desire that they'll all be held according to a international recognized level (slope %, course length, cone distances etc). That's what the Main status is about.

But as a general rule I don't think flat races should be outlawed. If an organizer wants to put on a flat course race and racers want to go there, it's a good thing too.

/Jani

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Post by Cat Young » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:06 pm

Wesley Tucker wrote:This thread is sort of like signing a petition against grizzly bears: sure they exist but what are the odds of running into one?
I guess Wesley has never been camping in Alaska.
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:11 pm

Cat Young wrote:
Wesley Tucker wrote:This thread is sort of like signing a petition against grizzly bears: sure they exist but what are the odds of running into one?
I guess Wesley has never been camping in Alaska.
Exactly Cat: if you go looking for them you will find them.

Just like flat slalom races.

Otherwise, what are the odds?

Reading Ramon's further explanation I have to admit I too would be a bit flustered to travel to a race advertising one thing and then finding another. It would be like going to the Farm expecting Shady Lane only to learn Tway decided instead to race in the grocery store parking lot without telling anyone.

I still don't see, though, where some sort of "ban" on flat slalom would have worked even in this situation in Czechoslovakia (nope. Didn't have to look it up.) According to what I'm reading here they didn't advertise a flat race. If they were banned what's to keep a promoter from doing the same thing again?
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Post by Flavio Badenes » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:33 pm

No flat slalom

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Post by Dominik Kowalski » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:39 pm

flat is dead
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Post by Rick Floyd » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:49 pm

Flat is so "pre-Columbus"...the world is ROUND, and so are my wheels - gravity exists for a reason. ;-)
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Post by Jeroen Steggink » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:40 pm

No flat for me either, although I live in one of the flattest countries in the world :D

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Post by GARY GLASSER » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:31 am

Wait..there are flat course slalom races?..No way! Never seen one and the chances of seeing such a thing are probably ZERO..here in ColoRADo.


The standards are obviously steep here. I see it as a challenge either way really.
I am the slowest COSS slalom racer..Lucky for you!

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Post by Chris Eggers » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:00 am

We had flat slalom in the 70/80s on gymnastik floors with low ramps, 2 meters straight 15 cones.............sometimes there even was a spectator or two who even watched 5 minutes before deciding that this was the most boring thing he ever saw.

why flat? maybe if you can´t find a hill, the good ting is, that you CAN do flat slalom, but I think these days are over.

No flat in contests I would say. It may be a good idea to practice pumping on flat. Then maybe again it will not be.....whatever.

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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:45 am

interesting results so far
not one is for flatland racing
to the americans:it is or was not uncommon to have flatland races here in europe
believe it or not

i remember those debates with people that were for them pointing out that the bodies in motion and so on

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Post by Pierre Hazera » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:26 am

Here it was a flat slalom race since june 2008
and there was spectator and they enjoy watching it
but Slalom on hill is nice to

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

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Last edited by Pierre Hazera on Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:28 am

There is one out here who is for flat Slalom ! And i'm shure there are many more out there who are not the whole time at this forum!

The question is, what is flat ? For me the competiton in Zurich is on flat, the competition in Jurmala is on flat and the competition in Grenoble is on flat.

All those three competitions showed slalom on a competitiv level to the audience. And at all of those three competitions there were thousends of spectators.

If i go back to my competitors statisitcs it shows that the year 2008 goe's back with the number of entrants at a competition. At the same time it show's that the travel between Euro and US goes back.

It is a question of the Vision and the strategie for the whole sport. What do we want to show ? And how should the structures be to reach what we want to show. When this question isn't cleared we can have here endless discussion about every small element of this sport.

As en Example:
If you have a look at the rules, there is no realy Tight Slalom, the cone limits are:

Straight Parallel Slalom: 1m - 3m
Tight Slalom: 1.4m - 3m
Hybrid Slalom: 1.5m - 4.5m

As i mentioned in some posts before there is a differenz between speed (in distanz) and speed (in body motion).

In Zurich the people like to watch Ramon or Dominik or Luca going trough the tight course over 80 cones. And the people know that this is a good performance when they see that other's hit many cones at the same distanz.

For an organisation it is and it will be all the time the most important thing to know what is the goal or what has to be showen.


I agree with Ramon that a flat 1.80m Cone distanz is too much for the Pro's, but don't forget that you all members had the chance to vote on this rules and that there were a lot of discussions about it.

As a side note. The ISSA as an organisation don't know the way of a petition. We the members vote for the BOD and the BOD work how they like. With other words it is not possible to running an organisation with people from diffrent cultures without structures. Have a look at the organisation of BMX, they are a very young sport, but they had succsess with making structures. They have an organisation which is accepted. And they play their owen rules with success. The result is, that they improve from year to year with better competitions and more money which is invested in the sport.

As the last comment: It is not possible to have all things freestyle at one point and to have it organised and professional at the other point. That is the first point to know when people come together.

/J-Rad

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:53 am

Well, Zürich Rennweg is not flat. Lay your skateboard on the road and let it go. It will roll towards Bahnhofstrasse!
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It's been a while since I last made this post, but I can't help but post it again and again:
Ramón Königshausen wrote:The cone spacing for Straight Slalom in the Pro category shall be

- 1.60m on a flat surface

- 1.80m on a fairly steep hill

- 2.00m on a damn steep hill
Flat is fine as long as you make it tight enough. The tighter the easier to accelerate and the higher the cone frequency. (Interesting that the Rules say Straight Slalom cone distances range from 1m-3m. I'd like to run a 1m straight slalom and see if anyone likes it. That would be the German Championship because only racers on GOGs would have a chance to make the course.)

However I came up with this for a long time going on discussion because we made changes, made rules but apparently they do not seem to come into action. Why? Because everyone wants to have it his way. What I think we should have is ISSA representatives at every race that are respected in what they say. Let me quote from an e-mail that I recently sent to Jani:


For next season I hope we can bring a team together that helps running main and major events and so that we have the same conditions everywhere. Furthermore, the status application must include a section where the organization team is listed (who is responsible for what?) So that in case some organizer is short of (experienced) people, the ISSA could help out by sending experienced people.
And, as IGSA does, we could come up with an application fee (such as an insurance that the event will happen); e.g. €300 for Main Status, €150 for Prime etc. So by the end of the season we can decide how and on what that money could or should be spent. (As far as I understood, many other Associations/Clubs have their members spend a certain amount of money yearly that can be re-invested in order to expand....)
As you can see: There is a lot of work to be done for next season. This season was/is already better that last season. We are evolving after all, and that's a good sign. So just don't let go half the way down. (Funny huh, why is it down and not there or up?!)

rmn
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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:12 pm

coming back to the flat races....
if we would make a poll involving the pros that currently raced the competitions this year...

awww what the heck


lets run that poll and then we(hopefully the organizers as well)will see where the trend is heading to.
i guess you all know the answer already



on a side note for you j-rad:statistics are fine and welcome.
but...you have to put such things as current exchange rates into consideration regarding less
travel activity for the us guys too.

on another side note:
if i run next years euros i will definitely not have courses on flat.


speed is your friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:31 pm

Pierre, is this picture from Bordeaux ?

I like how interested the people are in watching slalom, even when it is a small competition.

Donald you are right we should run a poll or a questionary to see where the trend is going.
And than go for the outcome of it and run the bigger event's in the way the most want it.
I think there should be a view from the racer's side and a view from the organisers site. Than get a minimum of structura and improve the next season and continue with that.

There were some tv coverages in diffrent tv's, the only thing i missed there was a statement from the ISSA about the whole thing.

/J-Rad

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Post by Pierre Hazera » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:41 pm

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:Pierre, is this picture from Bordeaux ?
yes it's right
My friend organised pool competition (less and more 30years old), and beer pool riding ,
and we decided to organised a small slalom race on flat ground in front of the skate park.

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:03 pm

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:
There were some tv coverages in diffrent tv's, the only thing i missed there was a statement from the ISSA about the whole thing.
Hm, the ISSA doesn't have somebody that is in charge of media relations, do we?

rmn
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flat has its place

Post by George pappas » Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:53 pm

ok keyboard criddlers here are some thoughts both on and off the subject, but related to, flat land racing:

Go to skate pass.com and observe a current program, in the states, that brings skateboarding to school age kids physical education classes. Racing is not currently part of the curriculum, but imagine the explosive power of having slalom taught at the elementary school level. Skate pass is a perfect model for us to "get 'em while they're young". Virtually all schools have a gymnasium, and racing on the FLAT gym floor is a perfect way to expose kids to our sport. It is, naturally, a measurable way to guage progression, and a perfect fit for any physical education program. Just think how much faster slalom will grow when we take advantage of this. Take note PPS, Pavel, Gecko, Abec 11, Seismic and all other manufacturers, "get 'em while they're young"!

In snowboarding, kids dont compete in the super pipe, in ski racing they dont race the same super steep hills as the pros, in moto cross they start with 80cc bikes and even in swimming they start at 25 meters. So I dont see anything wrong with flat straight racing for BEGINNERS. Flat is a great way to train. To learn rythem, build power, and learn to pump. But is it good at the World Cup, Pro, level? I think no. To take the long term view, Where will our sport be in five, ten, or even twenty years if we keep racing on flat? Six cones per second at a nine or ten percent grade is infinitely more exciting and difficult than six cones per second on the flats. I cant even comprehend how it will be in the future for Zak Maytum, Martin Reaves, Viking, Victor, Gustav, and all the up and coming superstars, Because of the PROGRESSION. Flat is keeping us from progressing. Flat is a DRY HUMP.

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Post by Jack Smith » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:30 pm

Good post George.

I don't know if it's just an internet thing, but it seems that on so many message boards we spend much more time discussing what not to do, instead of what to do.

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Post by Ulf Haag » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:40 pm

I'm with you all the way George, great post you nailed it.

//Wolfie

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:08 pm

That's how you get the spectators:
Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street

Image

rmn
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Post by Cat Young » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:24 pm

AWESOME Ramunski!!
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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:10 pm

as a result of all this i make the following observation:
since ramon,dom and a lot of also seasoned riders totally disavow flat races it will be difficult for organizers-who have mostly flat areas for racing to offer-to gather good competitors for their future races,unless they are willing to look into other venues.
the desire for slope has finally hit europe too and i think this is a very good trend.
it also attracts more spectators than flatland racing can.
we will see in 2009 who puts on the right races and who gets the best competitors to his race.
after all the overall quality of any race stands and falls with the quality of racers attending.

i

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Post by Erik Basil » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:00 am

"Flat is dry hump."
--George Pappas

Classic and I agree.
I ride fast boards, slowly.

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My 2 Cents on flat

Post by Paul Howard » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:05 am

Personnally I like riding flat tight NONSTRAIGHT courses with lots of offsets, S-Curves, gimmie offsets, etc. It's good practice and builds one's pumping power and endurance. When I setup that kind of course, it usually draws passersby to stop and watch for awhile which is something to think about for an activity that is "just one dude is doing" down on the riverfront walkway. But since I have another area with a small slope, I tend to go there the most, and on occassion I ride the secret permission "big hill" in town.

As far as competition goes, I'm fine with flat once in awhile. And if you have pavement, and thus traction, it will be much more interesting to run a NONSTRAIGHT course and for spectator appeal NONSTRAIGHT will be much more fun to watch, and dual lane head to head is always better if possible.

The ONLY time I would run a contest on flat and straight would be if it had to be run on a slick surface like a gymnasium floor where offsets just aren't realistic and the spectators are few.

Even on a hill, straight courses are boring to ride, boring to watch and the newly initiated nonslaloming skater and nonslaloming nonskater spectators will leave with that single image in their head that slalom is in a straight line. BORING. I personnally don't really like having spectators watch any type of straight line racing due to the "that looks lame and boring" factor.

Even 100 cone events would be good if there was a little meandering in the course, it wouldn't have to be actual offsets, just a wee little bit of snaky S-curve throughout the course would be nice.

I do agree though that flat and straight slalom indoors in school gym Phys Ed or recess periods is a good idea on the "get them while they're young" premise, but moving on to offsets on surfaces with traction would be strong next step in the right direction then move to a small slope. Baby steps, baby steps.

Take that for whatever it's worth. -Paul
I just dig slalom!

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Post by Skip Marcotte » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:04 am

My favorite part of racing is getting to ride different courses set by different people.

Flat is great to practice on (if you're into that kind of thing)

Flat and straight will not be how we draw the next generation to slalom.

Steeper, faster, mirrored courses, more variations, bigger start ramps...

Uphill courses should be discouraged as well.



he said hump.....

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Post by Terry Trimble » Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:30 am

last flat race scheduled and promoted in the United States
California amateur skateboard league contest in the late 80's and early 90's were all on flat ground or little slopes. Once in while we go some where with a hill to race on.

But We had Jim Korten set these gnarly off set course with very tight cone at the end for us factory guys to make it interesting we would push like mad. Then Pump our foam board like crazy Paul Dunn or Dave Crabb were always the fastest.

It was shame CASL used slalom back then as event to kill time between the real event.
But I sure racked up the overall season points placing high or winning race when I was in shop sponsored and 1A. Then I got to race with factory guys I would average about 5th place.
I do feel ripped off now by CASL after watching A GS at the pump house that I did not ever have a chance to race at 35 to 45 mph back then. But oh well I am to old for that now. I can't risk another injury in my life at 47 years old. So I have become a Long distance flat land pumper.
I did get to officially race against my slalom friend Jim Korten inside a fair ground event area in Reno Nevada on slippery flat cement. In the newly formed Pro skateboard league I got 6th place on July 22,1990. Jim beat us all to hell but I did care at least he got to finally race again in United States back then. Even if it was on flat ground.

Also my point is Flat land pumping slalom can be exciting if you have at least a 10 to 20 foot push off area to gain speed to make up for the missing hill on a very technical course.
Terry Trimble

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