Trucks/Racing and censorship

George Gould · Post by **George Gould** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:55 pm

I am bringing this here from the Truck forum from the NCDSA. I am tired of being censored when i haven’t used foul language, been degrading, wrote anything wrong/off post or been hateful. I didn’t like the way that discussion went down about the PVD’s. I guess the new advertisement policy is in effect. Several posts were removed and not just the degrading ones. I am not paying $375 for a truck at this point. I am not waiting for the next generation, titanium, turn limiters or whatever. $375 is my budget for a whole race. I know i am not particularly fast. I race because i get a kick out of riding on closed streets (El Fuerte!) i am pushing myself and having fun and for those brief seconds i don’t think of anything else. ok escapism and racing is my drug. I am an open class racer, i don’t race for money any way. I don’t think i am a threat to any podium finisher yet. I guess it didn’t cost Tracker Larry a dime to tool up to make RT X’s and S’s? I guess Turner hasn’t spent any money? How many people on PVD’s paid for them? Yes, I know I am a nobody but first and foremost I should be thought of as a customer. I pay my entry fees, buy shoes, wheels and stuff. 80 racers providing $ 100. entry fees make $8000 for costs and (FCR still loses money and I know it costs $$$ to put on a large scale race). 3 pros take home money. Think about it. Turner and Tracker have advanced skateboarding. So have Seismic, Radikal and PVD’s and many others. PVD i am happy for you. the pie doesn’t just get cut up, it grows bigger. When I think of Tracker i think happy carving thoughts, when i think Independent I think shredding aggressive thoughts, when i think PVD’s i think money, triple 6's and bad taste. This has nothing to do with Arab, i get along fine with him, so piss off. This has to do with the glow around a product and the impression that no one has a chance if they are not on it. I am so stoked that guys are still winning on what I can buy and not loose half my paycheck. I am glad there is room for us all. But I should not be freakin censored!

Glenn S · Post by **Glenn S** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:49 pm

Hey George,
First off, I’d like to say that I paid in full for my PVD’s :eek: . But I am troubled to hear that you George of all people have been censored at ncdsa.com !!! The whole “this slalom site – that slalom site” thing is stupid and so is censorship of people like yourself that don’t deserve it !!!

And the 666 logo is a funny thing. I must say that I don't like it. Why turn away potential customers? Why offend anyone?

[ This Message was edited by: Glenn on 2003-02-16 21:10 ]

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:40 pm

I had an issue with the price of these trucks a while ago, but for a different reason. If the trucks are in fact faster then the classics-I thought- it would not be fair for many racers who can’t or don’t want to afford them. A must to buy them to stay competitive – that’s what seemed unfair. As of today, I think all of the illusions about some aspects of their superiority are gone. The classics in the “right” hands, or under the “right” feet, to be a bit more exact, are as fast or faster. So, as of today, I don’t have any prejudice left and do want to try them ASAP so that I know what to expect should I decide/afford to buy a pair this year.

I would want to have a pair even if I don’t race on them. I can certainly appreciate a good craftsmanship and performance. That’s the reason I buy expensive racing snowboard equipment every year, and I don’t even race snowboards. If the trucks were $250, I’d buy them today. That’s how much I paid for http://www.catek.com snowboard bindings last month. By the way, compare the looks of these

vs. these

. Both bindings are anodized (?)

Censorship sucks…but the original post in this thread should be deleted…Twice!

Vlad.

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:58 pm

Hey George, that sucks your posts were removed. Sorry about the glow around the PVD's , guys who have them like them. Its really not that big a deal. If you don't like a product don't buy it. If you hate the logo or the way they present themselves don't buy it. I can't afford the new Mercedes Commando Truck at $123,000 but I don't bad mouth Mercedes because of it. My Dodge Pick Up is fine for my needs. Trackers are great trucks, I won the Breckenridge Open GS on them. Seismics are great too, I won the Open Bob Turner Race on them with a TTC in the rear. I hope to win a race on the PVD's this year.I can't for the life of me figure out why people are getting emotional about a new skateboard truck. They are not for everybody and its proven you do not need them to win a race so what gives? Why the hostility towards a machined skate truck?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:22 pm

I'm with TK on this. I am done posting on ncdsa about trucks (and frankly alot of other things). I too don't understand the knee jerk reaction against PVDs. NO, they are not some cure all for your riding and NO they won't make you 50 secs faster out of the box. To be good at slalom means practice, practice, practice (like Vlad has said over and over). No deck or truck or wheel is going to make you THAT much faster. You may pick up a few 1/10th -1/100ths here and there. You'll pick up even more with a properly setup deck (you pick the parts) for how you ride.

PVDs won't make you a better person. PVDS won't make you a top pro out of the box. PVDs won't even do the dishes.

PVDs DO give those riders who take the time to dial them in added perfromance, not speed persay, but slop free performance. PVDs give you more options, most of those options most people don't care about or even know they should care about.

PVDs are machined bits of metal. If you don't like them, don't buy them. You can still be competitive on trackers or indys or seismics AND PVDs. No one is forcing you to buy anything.

I was out riding last week. At one point I looked down at my board and realized that is a $900+ slalom setup. Does that make me a better person? No. Does that make me a better rider? Well it helps but isn't needed. In fact all my slalom setups are at least $600+....STILL dirt cheap compared to snowboarding or most other similar types of racing. I could set myself up with a $100 setup and probably ride within a few /10ths of where my $900 turner/PVD setups gets me (after practice).

Another example. I raced Clayton Scott twice last season in FCR races. His entire setup is maybe $150 tops, a comet deck, indy 101s and avalons...all well worn and all rarely changed. both times I raced him my setup was at least double the price of his AND more fussed over. Did i win? No. Clayton spanked me hard both times we raced. Clayton is a good racer and a good rider who is slightly crazy and rarely fuses with his gear. He rocks! TK can tell you the same being he raced clayton a few times last season.

Point is is this. I fuss with my gear. More than i should probably. however for this upcoming season I am fussing with less. I have a few things dialed in and more planned. The bag I carry to each race will have at least $2000 worth of slalom crap in it. Turners, PVDs, spiffy bearings, wheels, pads, extras, blah blah blah. Will I always win? Nope. Nothing in that back seals a win for me. It is all me andme being 100% confident in my gear (which i am now, more than i can say of last season).

Buy what you like but there is no magic fix to make you a better rider. At least nothing you can buy. Practice,practice, practice.

George Gould · Post by **George Gould** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:27 pm

No hostility, just the censorship thing and the attitude. the word hate is used way too often and implies way too much passion. i was impartial with the PVD's to begin with. i like mechanical things, i really dig watches. i understand the cost and precision. i think the removal of posts, right, wrong or indifferent is an attempt to change history as it occurred. the truth is stolen. the new advertiser has the appearance of carrying that burden to me. i don't hate them, i don't like what happened. i know Adam T here has maybe removed 2 posts and stated why. on the NCDSA it hasn't happened it is just removed.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:37 pm

george...I wasn't coming down on you at all. I was venting my overall frustration....

I understand you point, things do mysteriously disappear from ncdsa often.

Adam Trahan · Post by **Adam Trahan** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 12:06 am

George, we are going to continue to make a good web site.

1. There will be no advertising at http://www.slalomskateboarder.com

2. There will be no editing if I can help it.

3. I will not prohibit any appropriate slalom input or articles.

4. No one is making any money at the site except maybe the people who are supporting their own products with input which ultimately, we all benefit from.

This is the way I have choosen to present the information. Let you guys point it in the direction you want to and go with it. Already the site is a much different animal than I had imagined it to be, no less popular though. I really hope the "party" does not move here. That would take away from the site. I like to see people who can think for themselves and can understand the scope of both sites sharing the appropriate slalom specific information here. There is a "off topic" forum for those of us (mainly me) who have something else to say.

Always you will find web sites on the internet that "take away" or "contribute" to the topic and the internet and it's enthusiast.

Which one are we? That is for you to decide if there is any decision to be made at all.

I agree with TK. His post is quite informative on the subject. If I could afford them, I would own a set. I can't at the moment so I won't. I think the HYPE around PVD's is what it is and nothing more. I'll make a good choice now and in the future.

Best Regards George, give 'em hell.

*just kidding*

[ This Message was edited by: Adam Trahan on 2003-02-13 09:33 ]

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:56 pm

IMHO I hope that both sites do well and the amount of censorship on NCDSA.com probably has more to do with the format than anything else. People try to shout each other down there like being in a crowded room and trying to get people's attention. Eventually people say things they are extreme. It's more the format than anything else- less to do with Adam N.'s viewpoints than the format.

On NCDSA Some people get caught up with being embarrassed, or regret saying something. At times things get out of hand. I have asked Adam N. about 2 years ago to remove something which I felt was not slalom related and offensive and inappropriate.

What is great though is that people are passionate about slalom to stick their necks out and say something! Give an opinion, as opposed to being silent. (When slalom was ignored by the media in the 1970's the slalomers did not make themselves heard)

In the past some people looked at what the Pros were saying and disregarded what an "unknown" might say in opposition. That happens - but it is important that the newer people to the sport voice their feelings- because if the new people to our sport don't make their feelings heard.....how can we make this sport accessible or attractive to them if we can't hear what they want?

I do tend to stick up for the newbies.

Sometimes I don't agree with what they say in regards to some things (Mostly about things that they would have to experience on a "pro level" to understand how it affects them) but I am ALWAYS interested in what they have to say.

Sure I expect a new racer to say something like "We had a race and used handheld stopwatches and it worked fine- no one complained and stopwatches are good enough". And there is truth in that statement....for the New racer and a small group of WIDELY spaced other new racers. But of course get to a race where you have 10 guys within .2 seconds of each other and you see the arguement goes out the window. You can't place the racers accurately with handheld stopwatches when racers are separated by a few hundreths.

So long as both points of view are presented I am happy.

We have some slalom rules which are set for the purpose of having fair racing. My take is that any rule which makes the racing fair should be respected.

For example- This past season we have been using a common start in duels. From a newer racers perspective the common start might be prefered because a newer racer can work on his start very easily as opposed to developing higher level slalom skills- and hence make greater "performance strides" in a shorter period of time.

However in the case of racers being extremely closely seeded in regards to times a commmon start can tend to more greatly "mis-seed" racers in qualifiying as the times might not be reproducible. Such can be the problem of Duel racing. As a less experienced racer to the European circuit I voted for a common start- hoping that it might make the sport more interesting in duel racing - but ultimately it makes the results appear more "arbitrary" and less reproducible. I regret voting that way- and my vote was a swing vote.

My feelings are that racers should be rewarded for practice and that a racer that practices a lot- even alone...should be able to come to one of the Races and automatically do well on his first try- without having to "accustom" himself to the start.

That being said there are some newer racers who would likely hope that someday they would be racing a top racer that they would never normally beat....and the newer racer might get a great start and the older racer a poor start. The elasped time through the course for the older racer could be a magnificent run....but the newer racers wins on his good start.

Sounds great to the newer racer.

But the reality is- the pros have more experiences (races) "practicing" the start....they make it further in the deeper rounds having more time to get used to the system (They get more practice on a system that isn't "available for practice").

The reality is the pro will put in a fast time through the course that it is haed for the newbie to match AND put in a better start than the pro.

So what about the fast newbie who practices at home...gets a fast time through the cones, is a skilled slalomer, and comes out to race and blows a single start in one of the ten races required to get to the top. Well that Newbie is out. And I look at that and think that it does not encourage the newbie that he might have to come out and race 10 events (not place well in them because of a single bad start) and pay 10 entry fees before he can get his starts up to a competitive level with the pros. It is discouraging to the newbie.

The LAST thing we want to do is discourage Newbies. The newbies drive the sport, buy lots and lots of gear (making it more affordable with more choices for everyone), and provide new excitement in racing. And the Newbies shouldn't HAVE to have access to coaching by a pro to become good. They should be able to develop their skills on their own.....and if they have a question they should be able to ask it- and certainly if they have an opinion they should be able to voice it- and not be censored.

George G. doesn't want to pay $350 for trucks. (Frankly I don't either, but I also don't want to pay for a 1000 horsepower Bugatti, yet I like the fact that they exist).

It is important to hear what a newer racer thinks about $350 trucks. But I don't think that should limit price levels. If ALL racers were outraged the inventor might decide not to produce such a truck. So the inventor must guage the acceptance of his "price/quality + performance" ratio.

All that being said- will PVD trucks make a newbie a superstar? No. Will it make the newbie faster...PERHAPS if he doesn't set them up wrong (look at people with aftermarket cars stuff and all the ridiculous set ups). Will it make the newbie get a better placing.....PERHAPS in a large field where times are close together near the newbies "normal" time....but in a small field with widely varying times SKILL will determine the placing not the gear.

So for George G. it is likely that the PVD's will have little to no effect on his placing unless he is in the top 20.

Yet George might gain confidence + greater safety, adjustibility, and cool factor by going to PVD's- but unless lots of people are really close to him in times all the $ won't buy him a better placing....or knock him down in placing. (Unless he races me and offers me $20,000 to lose

But if George is discouraged from racing we might never know if George was really fast and would lose another racer and that would suck.

No one is making big bucks from this- and likely people will continue to attempt to scratch out a living unsuccessfully. Slalom is fun- it's not about racing yachts and vacations with unlimited spending. It is about bros and pros. Its a fun game you can play for less than $1000 and play with the best in the world- quite a bargain.

Comparitivly speaking, Vlads post about the Cateks is to illustrate that the Scene of alpine snowboarding is bigger than slalom skateboarding ....there is a small market for the Catek binding- (I own the newer 2004 step-ins and they rock!) The Catek is the most adjustable binding on the market and has almost no moving parts. The PVD's have much more going on. They serve a smaller market and hence should be more expensive. There are few to no economies of scale on the horizon for Peter Verdone and his trucks. But for the amount of machining and development- they are certainly not expensive.

In Alpine snowboarding on Bomberonline.com People have railed against the expensive Bomber bindings and Catek bindings VS a cheapo Burton binding. But most people once they try a higher performance thing are happy that the choice is there - and once they try it they aren't as upset about the price because they can see the justification. Also they can feel like Superman for a few runs

George Gould · Post by **George Gould** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:59 pm

John thanks for the post. When I went to La Costa 2001, I didn’t know what to expect. To tell you the truth, that Friday night when i went to look at the hill i was like,ok, and then i saw you get out of a car in street clothes sans pads, walk 3/4 of they was up, start pushing about 75 yards and scream down the hill... I knew I was in over my head. And as I have written before a I had a paradigm change. I need to see something live to try it. I didn’t qualify that day. And 2002 I had to work on my house which really altered up my racing schedule. So, 2002 my first race is L/C. I learned to foot brake that day. I never saw it done before. I had to drop out Sunday, my equipment was all wrong and at that point I was still a one board guy. To tell you the truth I went to Avila Beach and figured if I can’t do it I am going to walk away, I will just go back to skating whatever, parks, the occasional pool and ditch. I have been skating for 30 years and I am not going to quit. I didn’t qualify, but I didn’t embarrass myself either. Steve Evans has probably helped me out more than anyone. He is perhaps the most under rated technical slalom skater I know. He knows so much about it, he can watch me and tell me what to do. At any rate he got me practicing one thing, SPEED. Then I went to WLAC (thanks to the Howells for letting me crash and Adam T for splitting transportation) that race was ok. Timing problems stopped the G/S but I got to do the big hill course and gained a lot of knowledge. I bought an Ick Stick. Today there are videos that really help a guy that lives in the middle of no where, Thanks Kenny. I enjoy racing, I am not quitting, I plan on racing FCR and Colorado and maybe the Bear this year. I hope to see you all.

Now as far as PVD’s and the censorship thing. It was wrong what happened. There were statements made and erased and such. Maybe one day I will even get a set. But right now I have a bad taste from it. and maybe I got a little emotional with some of the b/s comparisons of war and such, people trying to shout down, slurs at others, etc. I can forgive and forget. Lets race.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:31 pm

Absolutely, Mr. John. If Cats run $270, Pee-Vees are reasonably priced in comparison.

I’m gettn’ the twenty-dollar G-things from Glenn S here. You know, it’s a start in my inferiority complex treatment (known as the Pee-Vee envy in some professional circles).

David Eye · Post by **David Eye** » Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:17 pm

George; NCDSA.com is a pretty hostile, intimidating place anymore and recently, I almost stopped going there completely. If it were not for the events listings, the new product announcements and the Q & A with Mike Maysey, I'd be done with it,totally. The Q&A with MM seems the only part of that site were people actually discuss things as if they really care what others think. Thats what I like about this site; there is an open give and take of ideas without need for hiding your identity (anonomous posting =WEAK !)anyway, George, I appreciate your posts (may not always agree) but enjoy them. Its clear you have a passion for the sport and in my book thats what really counts. Also you should definetly come and hook up with us in Colorado, you'll fit in well with us here and we'd show you a good time.

DE
also;cool post JG, really good stuff.

Eric Groff · Post by **Eric Groff** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:50 am

yeah George-The PVD forum at NCDSA is a joke.
Your post should not have been pulled, I'm curious why people can call me 4 letter words there, and yet the post still stays?

I think I'll buy some advertizing space on NCDSA like Chaput and PVD so my post wont get pulled.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:09 pm

just for comparison...in the alpine snowboard world their are actually two $300'ish bindings...Cateks and Bombers (the ones I prefer). Both are bullet proof and amazing. Beyond that there are a few $200 ish ones and the rest are el cheapos. Its (alpine snowboarding) a larger market but still small...but supports two+ high end binding manufacturers.

just anFYI

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Stepanek on 2003-02-15 10:10 ]

[ This Message was edited by: chris stepanek on 2003-02-15 17:30 ]

Eric Groff · Post by **Eric Groff** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:55 pm

Just FYI,
This is a Slalom Skateboard forum, I dont see the comparisons of Snowboard bindings. Thats like saying I have a $500.00 Coffee Maker. There is another Company that has $499.99 maker on the market also.

Then there is a bunch of low end coffee makers.

What is the point????????????????

Point is I ride a $35.00 pair of Trucks made from $7.00 of Aluminum

You ride a $350.00 set of trucks made of $7.00 worth of aluminum

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:31 pm

arab I love ya man...but i was just commenting on something that was already posted in this thread. Does it have an application to slalom? Not really. Does it have an application to this thread? Yup.

Eitherway it ain't a big deal!

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:39 am

If anyone rides Alpine snowboards- a decent set up like a Donek, F2, Coiler, Madd, and some Priors you'll see not a close correlation- but a DIRECT correllation to the movements in slalom skateboarding nad Alpine snowboarding.

Alpine Snowboarding just feels like a bigger hill with a higher traction surface- nad instead of timidly tilting like in slalom skateboarding- you go for it with gusto- and just plunge into the turn without fear of some small crack or pebble in the pavement messing you up. A groomed hard packed trail is like a newly paved hill.

But I could understand if you did not ride any of these decks one might not believe the comparision. There are times that I find it hard to differentiate between the two sports- they are that similar.

Join the ISSA 25 cone series. One cyber race every second month!

Regular sessions allow newbies to join our community and discover slalom racing.