Expanding On Fluitt's Course-Setting Poll Results

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Jack Smith
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Post by Jack Smith » Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:38 pm

Hey Wes,

Did you get my private message?

Thanks

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Post by Gary Fluitt » Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:46 am

Dual courses are always slightly different, one being faster than the other. I think that's your point Brady, no matter what you're going to have different courses. That's why we run both lanes and the difference always decides the victor. So we're running around a curve. The courses will for sure be different. We'll try to make them as similar as possible, with an exciting finish.
Dan- to answer your question about Friday's event, here's the low down.
Friday 2pm - 8pm SINGLE LANE LONGBOARD GS
Saturday 9am - 6pm DUAL GS
both the above are at the Beaver Run resort on the curve.
Sunday 9am - 5pm DUAL TS downtown Breck

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:51 am

Jack,

Replied to your message and covered copied it in an e-mail to "Old Skate Guy."

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Post by John Gilmour » Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:30 am

In dual racing we strive to have the two identical courses actually be as close to "identical" as possible.

Otherwise Dual racing isn't really dual racing. If the courses are significantly different what we really are doing is tallying the times from two "separate" single track races together to find a winner.

That being recognized- perhaps in a case where the two courses can not be "very identical" we might not have to have the courses identical at all. They could be different courses raced side by side. For this is what really ends up happening. If one of the courses ends up losing "flow" because it is getting to wide ...ie on the outside- or perhaps too tight...the inside..... we might be better optimizing the courses for the hill as opposed to struggling to make them identical.

Sounds ridiculous?

It is really not very different.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-02-24 12:51 ]</font>

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Post by Terry Kirby » Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:53 am

at the bob turner memorial race this year i noticed a strange happening. in the left lane assuming you are looking down the hill, many top riders crashed at the 5th gate. there was nothing difficult about the gate yet cris linford, charlie ransome, gary fluit, mike bream, all went down there. was this coincedence. gary, what happened there.tk

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Post by Andy Bittner » Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:17 pm

In reference to John's post, which I feel sums up the situation well, I have some pertinent experience and concerns to add.

I think there are two primary reasons to run races side-by-side. Dual racing can certainly add an additional exciting competitive element for the racers and tends to look additionally exciting to spectators as well. Both of these advantages are significantly diminished as the courses become more different from each other.

My concern is that, if the two courses become too different, it'll lend nothing to the rider's experience, and the spectator's perspective will actually suffer. The experience that causes this concern for me happened back in the summer of '01. At the time there was some discussion on Ncdsa.com of dual courses being set in a mirrored configuration. We'd pretty well arrived at the conclusion that there was really no good mathematic (making the racing more fair) cause for setting mirrored courses, but during the conversation, I'd become curious about the visual aspect of such a course arrangement.

It occurred to me that it might make for a great visual to have racers who are dead even on the course, making mirrored movements toward and away from each other. I guess it must've been at one of the '01 Summer Night Slalom Sessions that we went ahead and gave it a try. What I discovered was that the only thing interesting about the visual was how completely confusing and detrimental it was.

The Gaithersburg Park and Ride is as good a place to set nearly identical courses as I've ever seen, and a good example of that would be the '01 Summer Night Season Finale course(s). There is a dynamic to identical, or nearly identical dual courses, where a focused spectator (or even the rider on the other course) can tell who is ahead from almost any angle. In my opinion, this is dual racing at its' best for everyone involved. The opposite was true for the mirrored courses. Not only was it NOT easy to tell who was ahead, it was even visually hard to determine that there was a race going on, or who was on what course. I mean... even standing at the top of the course, between the courses, as starter, and never blinking for the whole run, it was just plain ol' confusing to look at.

I'm glad we did that experiment, because I love coming up with unexpected results. Unfortunately, in this case, the unexpected results were decidedly negative. Does anyone else remember this experiment and agree? Who was there? KMG? BoBo? Mitch?

The end result, tying all of this information to this particular thread, is that I believe the two most significant and positive benefits to dual racing, enhanced competitive feel for the riders and enhanced visual excitement for spectators, become seriously diminished as the two courses become increasingly dissimilar.

Gary, is there any particular reason why you seem completely unwilling to consider a single lane race on what looks to be a great venue for just that? I'll admit that, starting a new job next week, I probably won't be able to make it anyway, but I am curious about what actually seems to be a reluctance on your part.

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Post by John Gilmour » Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:04 pm

Spectators?

I find that we can't expect spectators to travel to watch slalom- only we can expect spectators to stop and watch as they are passing by.

I can understand that- first off there is ussually no seating available at MOST slalom contests. The contests take a long time. And there is no particular perfect vantage point to place seats in.

As opposed to 1/2 pipe. There are key seats. And the pipe makes a spectacle of itself and is "an event draw" from a distance.

So in some slalom areas where we can not reasonably expect many spectators - IMHO we may as well optimize the event for the skaters as opposed to the spectators. We have had a few races "on empty roads- seemingly not near people"- to expect spectators to make the trip by advertising hasn't proven itself to be likely.

So this comment isn't necessarily for Gary's race- (as many of us have seen the venue and it is a cool road to race on). It is a comment to all potential promoters who plan to gear a race towards spectators in areas without regular "heavy pedestrian traffic"- or perhaps temporary heavy pedestrian traffic from another event running concurrently- with some crossover audience.

So where to have races if we want spectators to see dual racing?

Some ridiculous far fetched venues-

Times Square
Outside the summer olympics between events
The Capitol Building in DC in summer.
Wall Street during lunch
Fanueil Hall in the Summer
Baltimore Ocean front near IMAX
Venice Beach


Some not so ridiculously far fetched venues-



Central Park
Just before the Boston Marathon End when the roads are closed but the runners are miles away.
The Trocadero near the Eiffel Tower.

Greenwich, Connecticuts Main street.
Orange Street on Nantucket

Of course the temperatures should be good for walking and not so hot so spectators feel compelled to the beach or pool- nor so cold that the spectators won't stop to watch for longer than 5 minutes. Probably temps between 75-65 degrees. Gary's race should be near perfect temperatures for spectators to hang out. Last year's Breckenridge race was also scheduled well for the weather and the venue near the main street got good spectator interest.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-02-24 12:30 ]</font>

Jack Smith
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Post by Jack Smith » Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:08 pm

Only when you have a racer going between 50-60mph, with his hair on fire, wearing one of JG's fashion statement outfits will single lane racing be slightly more exciting than watching paint dry. After a watching a few runs the average spectator will drift away.

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Post by Andy Bittner » Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:46 pm

My feeling is that much of Jack's point depends on how educated and truly interested the average spectator is. If we consider the average spectator to be the average walk-by spectator, like at Morro Bay, then dual racing definitely provides more spectacle. However, if we consider that the average spectator is more likely to be one of us, I, for one, don't find good single-lane racing to be any less exciting than dual racing on unbalanced courses.

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Post by George Gould » Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:59 pm

for the record, i like racing dual. it forces you to become a better skater. when i get in the gate on the ramp and the timer thing kicks off, the intensity level is way higher. i liked the single lane of say WLAC fine, but dual racing is the sh*#! that is why i like going to a big race. i can run single lane by myself any time. and if anybody wants to run some cones at 6800 ft stop on by. as a spectator people pick favorites. people know the difference between pro and open classes, and people like watching dual.

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Post by Andy Bittner » Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:10 pm

What people like to watch dual? Are there population segments out there, other than ourselves, who have ever had the chance to see both types of racing and express a verifiable preference for one over the other, or are you just talking off the top of your head. I'd love to see your market statistics. I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense that there'd be a preference for dual, I'm just saying that we need to stop kidding ourselves about even having spectators.

I think that, elsewhere, someone else suggested that Jack line his Paso Robles course with bleachers...

For who?

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Post by John Gilmour » Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:50 pm

I've got the Kerosene- now who will set a 50-60 mph course?

I think we shouldn't toss out single lane- just on basis of the spectators and in places where there are almost no non skating spectators IMHO I think single lane should be used more than it has in the past.

I do think the skaters should be more interesting to look at. The baggy pants-old t-shirt thing is pretty stale. BLR always has a good look. Dong and Atilla are the storm troopers.

But single lane is exciting- and can be more exciting if the same things are used in our single lane racing as in other single lane sports.

For TV We could use the POV cameras that show approach and exit speeds like in the GS at Nagano for snowboarding. For our regular racing We could also use LIVE posted Splits during the course so spectators have an idea of how the racer is progressing during the course.

A leader board would also be more interesting.

Single track goes faster so spectators can see more than just one type of slalom in a day. There is little down time. I do feel that we have too much dual racing and need to intersperse more single track racing with the duals. Also the elimination bracket is unneccessarily large and cumbersome and prone to errors with a 32 man bracket. A bracket of 4 (for races of under 32 people) or 8 (for races with more than 50 racers) would speed things up a lot.

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Post by George Gould » Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:16 pm

Andy somebody rain on your parade? you run the USSSF, so do what you want, no i didn't do a study or poll on dual racing, but i will try the next time i am at a big race. let me know what questions you want asked, i will fund it too. at Morro Bay people stayed to watch the race because it was exiting! i think single lane is fine sometimes. But, there is a lot to be said for big shutting down the street, building the towers, making some freaking noise spectacle of dual alne racing. otherwise without a big readable drag race style clock a single lane isn't that interesting. and i like racing dual. i talked to numerous bystanders, 5 were on vacation from Texas, they stayed to see who was going to win. the race held spectator interest all day as many of the same faces stayed there. i know Morro Bay is somewhat special as it is the Worlds. there is something to be said for little in the middle of nowhere, racers only races too. to many people a race is against someone, be it cars, bikes or feet for that matter skateboards. Dual is cool.

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Post by Andy Bittner » Wed Feb 26, 2003 1:03 am

George, Please don't get me wrong. Nobody rained on my parade, and I didn't mean to rain on anyone elses. I am also not saying that people who see dual racing aren't excited about it and wouldn't stay to see who won. All of that's great. My point is that these same people haven't seen a single lane race for comparison's sake, and are not what I might consider educated slalom skateboarding spectators. Does that invalidate their experience? Absolutely not. Does it mean that their experience is very limited? Absolutely. I am just suggesting that we active supporters of this sport should be careful about projecting our own opinions, or our own conclusions onto a body of spectators that really does not exist yet.

Personally, I am looking forward to the day when we don't have to block traffic with a race in order to get the general public to look at it. I consider that each week, during each Fall, roughly one-quarter of one million people in the U.S. leave there homes, enduring traffic jams and crowds, all to pay a tidy sum to wedge themselves into a football stadium somewhere, to watch the NFL play. Now, I suspect that a significant percentage of these people have never even played football, and there probably aren't many at all who are realistically harboring a hope that they'll be called out of the stands to suit up and play. However, most of them have a basic understanding of the game and enjoy watching it. Among that group there's probably even a sub-group that enjoys a good, defensive game more than a high-scoring offensive show. The bottom line is that this weekly NFL attendance is an audience whose preferences can be quantified.

Right now, I think the most important survey question that can currently be asked of the casual spectators at places like Morro Bay is, "If you heard that there was going to be another event like this somewhere nearby, would you be inclined to come out and watch the racing?" The follow-ups would be, "Would you be likely to tell someone else about this event or bring someone new with you to the next?"

Again though, I didn't mean to sound like someone rained on someone's parade. Even as long ago as two years ago, people were making suggestions to event organizers about doing this or doing that, "for the crowd". I've always been a realist. There is no crowd for our sport, not yet. So, when I hear people making accommodations for crowds that aren't going to happen or basing decisions on the preferences of a spectator body that really doesn't even exist, it all seems a little ill-founded and delusional.

...and by the way, George, I manage the USSSF. Decisions that will affect the direction of the sport will be made by the Board of Directors and membership body, not me. I just wanted to be clear about that, because "doing whatever Andy Bittner wants is DEFINITELY NOT what the USSSF is about."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy Bittner on 2003-02-25 19:08 ]</font>

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Post by Eric Groff » Wed Feb 26, 2003 8:27 am

I like Both!

JPL was a blast, I would like to see more single lane racing, When Ransom set the fast time at Presidio GS last year the place went wild. Single to me is very exciting.
I like being able to listen to the numbers, figuring out what I have to do to make up such amount of time on my next run.

then again the way MB went this year was killer, there was alot of drama.

BOTH are good! Lets see more!!

Dual Tight
Single GS

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Post by Richy Carrasco » Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:06 pm

Dual Tight and Single GS-- If we could run Single GS We could use the whole street to make super G corses, curb to curb crash or win!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by Gary Fluitt » Sat Mar 08, 2003 8:03 pm

<b>Single Lane vs. Dual Slalom</B>

Let me be clear about the Breckenridge races. I say <font color=gold>RACES </font> (plural) because there will be THREE.

1. Single Lane GS (Friday PM)
2. Dual GS (Saturday)
3. Dual TS (Sunday)

So for those of you who like full bore GS on a single lane, crossing the fall line, and using the whole street and nothing but the street, make sure you get to Colorado no later than Friday morning - early. Racing will start at 2PM sharp Friday afternoon. Depending on size of field of racers, it will be a 3-4 run, Single fastest time wins affair. That'll keep everybody pushing hard for every race. And don't give me any s#*t about wind and averaging races to the best combine time, that's statistically as flawed as any single-run-counts scheme. I want to know who has the fastest time of the day.


Saturday Dual GS-
This is not an experiment. We've run lots of courses that were on curves (albeit less extreme than the breck hill). What we will do that WILL be different is that the finish line will be even, NOT staggered. This method of course plotting will off-set the start line, like in track. "Inside" lane will start higher up the hill than the "outside" lane. This will be as mathematically correct as my communications degree will allow me to make it.

The curve is a left hander. This feature favors the Goofy Footed Racer potentially because the curve goes left. Given that I will be setting the course (with a little help from all of you guys), and given that I am Regular Foot, I suspect the "Goofy Foot" advantage will not be huge because I'm not going to set heel side gates that I can't pump to or otherwise make.

JG- Good point. Since the lanes aren't identical anyway, why try to force it? My course setting goal is to make them as close to each other as possible, without sacrificing flow and rythum. Flow and rythum are king, followed closely by matching the run time of both lanes. If this makes the lanes un-identical, so be it. If you guys knew how much we have fudged one lane to get around water mains or asphalt imperfections in all the FCR races, you'ld probably be shocked.

We'll have the hill for a full 8 hours prior to the racing. That ought to give us enough time to dial a couple of really excellent courses (single and dual). I will not be able to publish a race course prior to event since the road is in constant use, but I will go run it with my mates around here and give you all a report on hill speed, equipment, and "proposed" course set ups. Good enough?
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gary Fluitt on 2003-03-08 14:15 ]</font>

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