6 Wheelers!

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Claude Regnier
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6 Wheelers!

Post by Claude Regnier » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:58 pm

Here's one that is going to need lots of thought. Do we allow it or not this season on a level playing field?

I personnally think it should be the race organisers call. I also think we should encourage it to be run in a seperate Open class so we can really see if there is an advantage.

Holding two separate timed races and showing results is also the best way to do this. If you just take a couple of runs and either could count it may not force the rider to dig deep down.

I also do not think it should be included in this years points system.
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:19 am

I don't personally like the 6-wheeler invention to be a legal competition skateboard. It's a fun thing like the 8 wheeler skateboards long time ago. But for me it's taking the skateboard evolution just over the edge. Until now all skate disciplines have a skateboard with 4 wheels. Unless perhaps some luge boards but then again that is not really skateboards for me so the logic seem to work. More or less wheels/trucks on a skateboard is "skateboard fun" but noting else for me.

We don't have any super guru judge though and must trust that all event organizers are handling their events in a correct maner. If not, protests should be done firstly at the event. Secondly by others knowing about it here on this forum, hereby done. First then we could act and set up some guidelines about this. But then again, it would only be guidelines.

As Claude says it's now up to the event organizers.

On the contrary when it comes to the World Ranking something could actually be decided.
But let's first see what people think in this forum. Such a descision would only then be made for the World Ranking and temporary until ISSA decides something officially about what to do with it.

My current personal belief is not allowing 6 wheelers for the reasons given above.

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6 wheels are fine

Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:05 am

I have no problem with any skateboard that has any number of wheels to be used in competition. As long as it is lean-to-steer, ridden with the feet, and has a single platform, then it is OK.

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Post by Heiko Schöller » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:05 pm

Maybe in giant there is a little advantage but who cares. It Looks stupid and real skaters will never use such a crap board to skate. For me it doen´t matter if someone uses such a board on a contest.
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Post by Vincent Berruchon » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:31 pm

So you think we could compete with t-board too?
http://www.tierneyrides.com/
and can I skate with electronic trucks?

We need rules, some precise rules but not to restrictive - not to ask each time if this or that should be allowed.
"Only 4 wheels" is not restrictive for me when talkin about skateboards...
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:04 am

That's exactly what I mean. If we allow 6-wheelers why not allow all other kind of skateboard related inventions. There are a couple out there. I don't mind them being out there but lets not make a joke of it at competitions.

Now it's up to the organizers. One would have hoped that it would have been enough to settle the problem but apparently not.

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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:46 am

Vincent Berruchon wrote:So you think we could compete with t-board too?
http://www.tierneyrides.com/
and can I skate with electronic trucks?

We need rules, precise but not to restrictive and not asking each time if this or that should be allowed.
Only 4 wheels is not restrictive for me when talkin about skateboards...
Yes: A T-board would be OK in my opinion. That is, it should not be prohibited because it meets the standard of a "skateboard" by the definition I proposed (and now modify further):
1) A single platform.
2) Lean-to-steer.
3) Ridden with the feet on the board
4) No propulsion mechanisms on the wheels.

Electronic Trucks? Yes. As long as they don't add any propulsion to the wheels. I think electronically-controlled steering mechanisms or electronically-controlled alterations to the suspension characteristics of the trucks should not be prohibited.

I realize I may be in the minority, but I believe that the rules should be as unrestrictive as possible.

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slalom skateboarding equipment

Post by Kevin M. Gamble » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:11 am

I agree with Corky in the belief that a 6-wheeler should not be a legal slalom competition skateboard. During this debate, others have argued that any device defined as a skateboard is therefore legal for slalom skateboarding. To me, that is equivalent to saying that since automobile racing is performed with automobiles, any device defined as an automobile is legal to race with.

In my opinion, slalom skateboarding is an athletic competition, not a technological one. The winner of a race should be the racer with the best athleticism and strategy, not the racer with the most wheels, trucks, or top-secret technology. We need a set of rules that clearly describe what range of equipment is allowable, and what is not. Technological advancement is fine as long as it stays within the limits of the rules. The limits can be as wide or as narrow as we decide, but they should exist in advance so that every racer knows what is legal and what is not. Rules can be modified as necessary, but not by a show of hands at the top of the hill on race day.

The equipment playing field should be as level as possible to prevent, for instance, a wheel manufacturer showing up with wheels that are only available to him. Wheel trimming and modification are fine, but the general public should have access to purchase those same wheels. Wheel diameter should have some limit to prevent the race being won by the racer with the biggest wheels. Electronics of any kind could be a big can of worms; how could we determine if the electronics can give an unfair advantage? Lengths, widths, heights, fairings, etc should all be discussed in advance.

I guess my biggest concern is the young skater that walks up to watch someone practicing running cones. He sees a device being ridden that kind of resembles his skateboard, but is different (expensive?) enough to discourage him from trying to participate, since his initial perception is that the sport is all about who has the best equipment, and he doesn’t have a chance of being competitive with his plain old 4-wheeled skateboard.

So, he just walks away……………….

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Post by Marion Karr » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:52 am

On our own DHB website we are currently "polling" our membership regarding their take on 6 wheelers and if they will be allowed in the Dixie Cup. We plan on making that announcement, once a decision is made , before Legacy Registration, and well before Open Registration so that riders can make a decision regarding equipment and/or do they want to attend or not.

Personally, I don't have enough information collected to draw a conclusion as of yet but am making sure that I am conversing with all sides of the issue.

That is what all Race Promoters need to do...and they need to begin doing it now. Only two races so far has had them in them and both were won by Chris, who happens to be a fast skater regardless of his equipment.

I do understand Kevin's point about younger skaters but lets face it, there is a some correlation between higher end equipment and performance. Yes, riders like Cbark, Mitchell, Hollien, Mandarino, Mollica, and Gilbert would still kick everyone's butt on RTS/RTX set ups and wood boards, but go to a race and you will see average skaters improve when they are riding better equipment. All sports that require equipment to perform the act have always had a high concentration of innovation, new ideas, and better materials pumped into it. I come from the cycling world and want to talk about expensive equipment? That sport is filled with it....titanium, carbon, aero stuff, etc. etc.. The International Cycling Federation does have some restrictions on bike shape, aerodynamics, etc. but believe me, the more cash you got, the better equipment you have, and with proper training it can give you definite advantage. Those in our sport that can afford Radikal trucks, Splitfires, PVD's etc. can clearly get an edge over their competition. If they couldn't they would not spend the money.

The reason that young rider might walk away is because the dude running cones doesn't stop long enough to even let the young rider give it a shot. Their street boards wouldn't make the course even if they tried. The way to get youth into our sport is to actually go out and invite them to skate with you. Build a loaner board and take it with you or have the guts to let them step on your foam core. But invite them!
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Post by Vincent Berruchon » Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:53 pm

I like Kevin's point of view.

Marion are you sure the International Cycling Federation would allow 3 or 4 wheels bike?? I don't think so...
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Post by Marion Karr » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:51 pm

Vinnzz, the point I was making regarding the International Cycling Federation was not about 4 wheels vs. 6 wheels but was regarding the costs of high end bike components.
With all due respect to Kevin, the argument that 6 wheel skateboards may be a deterent to younger skaters simply as at relates to cost does not fly based on the current availability of high end components that a great deal of slalom riders use. With the exception of small group of top skaters out there, a big portion of slalom skaters today are investing fairly large sums of money in their 4 wheel equipped boards. There is a reason for that investment. Most people don't go spending the kind of cash it takes to buy a Radikal, Splitfire, PVD, Pavel, PPS Foam Core, Ick, Turner, etc. if they didn't think it would give them an advantage.


I agree that the cycling federation would not allow 3 wheel or 4 wheel bikes. They have already eliminated recumbents from any serious race scenario and the recumbent riders have had to all go do their own thing. That may end up being the case for 6 wheel riders.
They have not, however, eliminated the use ot titanium (expensive), carbon (expensive), composites (real expensive), etc. etc.

Again, understand, at this point, I don't think there has been enough evidence for or against 6 wheelers to determine if there is truly an "unfair" advantage by having one. Chris Chaput can rip GS any way and was also running a new formula of wheels at the two races he won at Pump Station. I just don't think that we are in a position to draw any true concrete conclusions based on two isolated races. Even though the talent pool at those races were strong, the two top GS riders in the world were not there to test Chris on that board. From personal accounts of the race from someone who was there, Chris's balls out last run was the one that nipped Kosick for the win. Mollica was not there. Mitchell was not there. Would the results have been the same? Who' knows.

Vinzz, I do agree with you that a declaration of only allowing 4 wheels is not that restrictive especially in light of the fact it has been the norm for the sport since it began. I think each race promoter needs to make a decision long before their event is held and broadcast that decision to the racers so that they can determine: 1>If they want to participate and 2>Can prepare for it if they do.

We wil make a decision regarding 4 wheels vs. 6 before the Dixie Cup.
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Definitions matter

Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:00 pm

Ummm . . .

"BI-Cycle" by it's very name demands two wheels.

Perhaps this argument would have more merit if we slalomed on "QuadBoards." Then we could continue over the merits of "Quadboards" compared to . . .

SEXBOARDS.
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Simple Thoughts From A Simple Mind

Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:09 pm

Since I just got approved access to the ISSA forum, I want to post something I typed last month on Mike Maysey's forum on NCDSA. This pretty much sums up my attitude RIGHT NOW about 6-wheel racing. Things could change but I don't want to get ahead of myself in coming to a conclusion.

Anyway, this is a cut and paste from January 25 after I went to California and saw the 6-wheeler run:

*****************************

I saw the six-wheeler running at Pump Station and I just wonder what difference it makes?

Through three runs, Kosick, Carrasco and maybe Hackett (I know Hackett was in the top three after two runs) were ahead of Chaput. Then on his fourth run Chris just went balls out and got down the course faster. Did the Six Wheeler allow Chris to go faster? Or did he just push into the course like a madman and get a fast time? Would his time have been slower on four wheels?

I'm not doubting Chris and trying to explain away his win. He had the fast time. What I don't know, though, is that two extra wheels and another truck made the difference. He improved with more runs. Well, I think most everyone does that who's in decent condition and doesn't get wasted climbing back up the hill.

Of course, then comes the argument, "well, let's see the same skater run the course on four wheels and see if he's slower." That won't work. Once a racer (in just about any sport) has it in his head that a certain set up works (and Chris's does work,) then he'll be naturally tentative to make a switch.

Chris has won two races on a gnarly course on a fast hill. There's no denying that. I just don't see in the numbers, though, where the six-wheeler is a miracle machine compared to the fact that Chris is getting faster no matter what the set up.

If Brent, Richie or Dave switch to six wheels and then keep their margin ahead of Chaput, then I'll be more inclined to think it's a real innovation. In the meantime, though, I have to think that Chris just went faster because he went faster, not because of some far-out technical avantage.
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Post by Vincent Berruchon » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:18 pm

I just wanted to say I like what Kevin wrote but I really don't want to lose some time with 6-wheelers polemic
Especially if one more truck doesn't change anything (so no problem to say to ban it, don't you think?).
And personally if someone can prove there's really an advantage with 6W., I think we probably should allow it!

But one again, I really don't think the problem is 6-wheeler by itself.
This thing only show us the difficulties to set some appropriate rules about what we should we allow, what we shouldn't .

To allow everything and anything is a weak statement.
We can skate as much crazy stuff when we want.

but we need standards to race all together
(and keep away polemics and b#lls##t)
But of course it should stop development of high end products.

PS @Marion:
if organizers decide to set each times different rules what about global ranking??
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Post by Marion Karr » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:33 pm

Vinzz,
I agree that the issue here is really not the 6 wheel 4 wheel debate as much as the need to have some structure and vision as to what this sport should look like.
I am in TOTAL agreement with you that we need to establish a set of standards. I am not sure that set of standards should go as far as dictating course layout as such because each venue dictates that more or less. It would also stifle creativity when it comes to course design. I do think that the ISSA as it is now developing needs to come to agreement on matters such as the 6 wheel vs. 4 wheel debate, what is considered a standard slalom board, etc. I am concerned however, that we can get so legalistic in these rules that it become so cumbersome that race promoters don't bother with putting on a race in the first place.

World Ranking points as it relates to this particular issue is an interesting conumdrum. If a rider with 6 wheels does have a definitive advantage over a 4 wheel rider I can see where there is an argument for banning the 6 wheeler as it relates to ranking. Maybe an option would be a handicap system that says 6 wheel riders have an X% advantage over 4 wheelers therefore points could be deducted accordingly. If it is determined that the advantage is say 5% then points for that placement could be 95% of the number of points that would have been awarded had the person placed in the same position on a 4 wheeler.
And before everyone starts screaming about how difficult this would be to do or that my math is wacked keep in mind this is just an example. Jani's point system program <Ed note: my? something's wrong here /Jani > could be modified to include a place for 4 wheel or 6 wheel participation. The burden would come down on the race promoters to report this correctly and well, there would be a lot of room for error.
The other option would be, as mentioned before, to develop a different class just for the 6 wheelers. This in itself would be a pain to the promoter but would basically end the argument on race day.
I repeat myself once again in saying I don't think we know enough about the full extent of the advantages that are gained by a 6 wheeler.

Vinzz, don't get me wrong on this matter, I am not arguing the merits of 6 wheelers or even remotely suggesting that they be allowed. I am just not convinced that we know enough yet to determine their merits or their impact on the sport.

But heck, what do I know, I am the newbie in town who has come over from the longboarding downhill crowd to see what this cone riding business is all about!

EDIT 2/12> Jani, I meant Corky's sorry. Typing in a hurry.
Last edited by Marion Karr on Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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6 or 4 Wheels

Post by Claude Regnier » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:55 pm

Is it an advantage? We don't know yet. You can bet lots of people are out there experimenting. I've set one up myself. Other then pump it around my sk8park I haven't really tried it.

I intend to. I will run some courses with it to find out the difference. I posted early on about the safety issues of newbies trying it out on a course. I thought It may be hazardous. I still think that after the few times I've rolled around. It will take some testing and trying like anything else. I also posted early on about some newbies showing up at a race only to see six wheelers and go home discouraged.

I think for this season at least we should try and have as many 6 wheel only events as possible seperate from 4 wheel races. If event organisers are willing and have time to run them. This way you can expect the best results from each racer in each category. This will help us to determine if it's better, equal or less effective. I think Wesley said that having guys run both wouldn't be revealing the true difference or benefits because of the racers approach on each. I tend to agree wich is why I say run them seperate. You get your 3 or 4 runs like eveyone else and the event is over. Then the organiser calls out "it's time for the 6 wheelers", then you set-up your six wheeler the way you like it and go.

Until we know for sure including it with the rest of the results is just wrong for the time being. If it's better provide more safety at speed then I am all for it. Once a decision is made to allow 6 wheelers then if you choose to run 4 wheelers you can.
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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:56 pm

one thing i found out reg. the 6wheelers...
from time to time a new product surfaces and all folks jump on it-blindly,to say so.
the product/invention gets its praises and after a certain time period it gets really quit-until the next trend/whatsoever surfaces.

this will be the same with the 6wheelers i think.
a sixwheeler can only have its own advantages in a certain gs setting-becuase of the added traction it provides.

BUT

only a few really experienced riders will be able to reap the merits of this invention-the rest might look really stupid with their 6wheel constructions,because they will only slow em down during the course.

la costa is a good proving ground f.e,

but hey

is it really worth the discussion?

lets see some races this season and we'll know what the hype is all about.


this will be certainly the best move to determine what it's all about.


until then it would be really cool to cease this pointless discussion,because there is not enough experience to be shared on the pro's or con's of 6 wheelers.

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Post by Marion Karr » Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:16 pm

Amen Campbell.
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:22 pm

I intend to move this topic into the Competition Rules forum. I don't really think we need to keep it here in this forum.

If anybody objects, please speak up.

/Jani

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Advantage 6 or 4?

Post by John Gilmour » Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:41 am

Well the advantage of a six wheeler or 4 wheeler is really up to the course setter.

In the last Farm GS I competed in TK set the course- which was a departure from me setting the course- but I think people wanted to see the course set by someone other than the winner..I won anyhow lol...

After the first run in practice I knew immediately it was a traction intensive GS. Not one about roll- but about maintaining traction at high speed.

Some skaters had PVD's some had Indy offsets, and other offset geometry trucks.

It became apparent to me after a single run- in the run, that traction was so paramount to winning.

You could generate lots of speed- in fact as a Pro you could generate enough speed so you could push your rear wheels to the very limit of traction.

So I realized after one run that the pros with the most rear truck traction...the ones with the PVD's were the only ones that had a chance of winning.

An Indy offset simply did not have enough traction to stick at that speed on that surface on that course.

So though I won- it didn't feel like a normal win. mostly because I felt I was only competeing against other riders of PVD's

The finishing order was Myself, Noah Heinle, and Terence Kirby. ALL on PVD's

Mollica was shut off the podium - I'm not sure whether it was Dong (on PVD's) or Mollica who took 4th.

This I'm sure anyone would say...is an unusual result for Kenny feeling good, wanting that crock and being beaten at the time by Noah and Terence and myself (not known for GS results).

If the gates had been pulled on both sides so it was more of a energetic - "as fast as you can pump and hold on while setting GS body angles course"- where the fastest pumping skater on Turner offsets, indy offsets, and perhaps a true 8mm axle modded truck would win....then Kenny might have won. I think he would have at least knocked one of us off the podium. But Kenny got to that point in traction where if he pumped faster he would have slid out- so the results went to the PVD riders. Kenny wasn't expecting a traction intensive GS on a two lane hill and most of the time the GS courses in competion (with the exception of La Costa) are more about roll and pump than sheer grip.


Not unlike the results that occurred with the first Indy suspension trucks....or even a few races at Donner where people with Coned out OJ's had a traction advantage- so if you didn't have the requisite piece of the gear....you were out of the running.

So a Fast pumpable GS likely would give little to no advantage to a 6 wheeler. But a straining for traction GS like La Costa (here speed is limited by sheer grip)...it might. Certainly a fast screaming GS like pump station. (never been there- just going on what others have told me)..likely rewards the person with the most traction who can take an aggressive High entry line without skidding out- and he will not load up his wheels late in the turn with lateral forces as a result.

Having nicer Urethane of course helps as well.

But if a promoter wants a 6 wheeler not to have an advantage all he has to do is set a course that gives the 6 wheeler no distinct advantage.

For a given hill and a given course and line taken in that course...there is an optimal set up, that will reward the same skater with reduced times.




For the Pump station it was

Chris Chaput .....

at the on a 6 wheeler.....

with fast urethane....

Or was it

Captain Mustard.......

in the library.......

with a candlestick.....?



for every race there is the correct combo or rider + gear + hill.
One good turn deserves another
john gilmour

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:20 pm

Ed note: This topic was moved from the ISSA Members only forum.

/Jani

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Post by Rui Soares » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:11 pm

You should not use the UCI (International Cycling Union) as a model.
They go as far as regulating bicycle geometry in some competitions (track cycling and world record attempts, for example). That would be the equivelent of having wheelbase and board size regulated . They have odd rules like minimum weight on equiptment, so while they do allow all the high tech materials in the world, the total weight of the bike has to be above a certain benchmark. In the last tour, a few riders (Salvoldelli being one) had to add brass weight to their seat tube to make their bikes heavier in order to "weigh in."
The UCI goes way to overboard with equiptment regulation and using them as a model is dangerous.
Im not at all saying that 6 wheelrs should be allowed, but remember when you start restricing, its hard to stop and you can look at the UCI for a model of that.

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