"the dark side of the cone"

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Kevin M. Gamble
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slalom equipment

Post by Kevin M. Gamble » Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:15 am

Is this the direction that the slalom train is heading? If it is, let me off at the next station. Maybe it's time to define what a slalom skateboard is.

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Post by Steve Collins » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:51 am

Yes, the slalom train is headed right that way, all skaters on board. We've already been assimilated out west and all the beautiful people are already riding 6 wheeled boards. Don't worry, your fear can still keep YOU safe. Just pull the covers up tight so you don't feel the advancing 6 wheeled hordes grinding over you as they spread the new three axle gospel of freedom across the globe.

Kevin M. Gamble
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6 wheelers

Post by Kevin M. Gamble » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:41 am

So, I guess, he with the most wheels (cash) wins. Where does it end? I thought slalom was about technique and ability.

BTW, I don't fear 3 axles. I just don't like the idea of a race where extra equipment can be purchased to compensate for diminished athletic ability.

And, if it does come to pass that we all end up riding 3 axles, doesn't that leave us all right back where we started, except a little faster and a lot poorer?

How are we going to bring new blood into this sport if the price of admission is 3 trucks and 6 wheels?

How are you going to feel when you show up to a race with your kick-ass 6 wheeler, and the rich kid down the street that just started skating shows up with a 10 wheeler and assimilates you?
Last edited by Kevin M. Gamble on Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Wesley Tucker
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:16 pm

My only question is what if the trucks aren't set up EXACTLY RIGHT? The way Chaput has this thing designed, isn't it only a matter of time before the turning radiuses don't match EXACTLY and you get real WHEEL-TO-WHEEL RUB? That could ruin your whole day.

Is there something I'm missing about the mechanics of slalom? If one truck is in front of the other, is there some dynamic law that says they will always and forever match in turning and thus never touch? My math/engineering-challenged brain tells me these two trucks must always have a turning radiuses that are of two hypothetical concentric circles. If one, though, distorts just a bit, the front wheel touches the back wheel, you have wheel lock and come to a screeching halt.

Or does Urethane-on-urethane behave differently than urethane on fibreglas or wood as in a classic wheel to board wheel rub?

Chaput rides these things and so far seems to have it figured out. Is it a non issue or is he just lucky so far?

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Post by Jonathan Harms » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:32 pm

Please forgive my ignorance, but sixth place in WHAT?

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:52 pm

The last Pump Station race this past Sunday in Poway, California.

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Post by Steve Collins » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:58 pm

Harms - 6th at the Pump Station on Sunday.

The 6 wheeler was Chris' little fun toy. No one else was riding one or has plans to ride one. My feeling is it was a fun experiment for Chris but did not make him any faster. Sorry about my previous sarcasm, there's just been so much flurry about Chris' 6 wheeled experiments of late.

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Post by Jonathan Harms » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:41 pm

Gotcha. I should have known from the green color scheme and the recent flapdoodle about Chaput's Maryhill "experiment."

Funny thing is, I think six wheels is not that big a deal. Does that extra truck setup make THAT big a difference, without a corresponding drawback of some sort? (And with those Gumballs on there, that's a fair question--they do like to go DOWN the hill, but aren't always so keen to go ACROSS it if the turns are sharp.) Now, the fairing on the downhill board? THAT seemed to be a pretty obvious advantage--within the letter of the rules, of course, but not really "sporting" in the way that usually applies.

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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:54 pm

stupid german boy add his 2 cents to the discussion about 6wheelers.
there is a word which is called friction.
more friction from wheels and other moving parts creates less speed
4 wheels in the rear mounted on 2 different truck sets creates even more friction due to the nature of the trucks turning.
as a matter of fact both truck sets won't turn simultaneously with the same exact angle,thus creating more friction.


i don't think that i'm a clever boy,so you surely knew that already,right?

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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:08 pm

Donald Campbell wrote:stupid german boy add his 2 cents to the discussion about 6wheelers.
there is a word which is called friction.
more friction from wheels and other moving parts creates less speed
4 wheels in the rear mounted on 2 different truck sets creates even more friction due to the nature of the trucks turning.
as a matter of fact both truck sets won't turn simultaneously with the same exact angle,thus creating more friction.


i don't think that i'm a clever boy,so you surely knew that already,right?
If we follow this logic, then a skateboard without any wheels will have 0 friction and will go the fastest down the hill.

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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:45 pm

you must be einsteins lost son,pat

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Post by Marty Schaub » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:10 am

Actually I thought he was pretty friggin clever.

But since you need at least two wheels for two trucks, wouldn't this make the old Hobie Sundancer the best slalom board ever?

(BTW, for all of you negative people out there, my tounge is firmly in cheek.)
La Costa Boy For Life

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Re: 6 wheelers

Post by Neil Gendzwill » Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:57 pm

Kevin M. Gamble wrote:How are we going to bring new blood into this sport if the price of admission is 3 trucks and 6 wheels?
The price of admission as always is a deck with two trucks and four wheels. But if that's all you show up with, your butt is likely to be kicked. How many sets of wheels are the pros bringing to the races? How many decks, how many trucks, how much wrenching before they determine the right combination for the hill, surface and course? You don't need to have 3 axles to get the equipment costs up sky-high. Personally, I've just got one slalom board and no extra wheels but the only one I compete against around here is me. If I was serious about racing I'd need to make an investment in urethane at least.

Kevin M. Gamble
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3 trucks and 6 wheels

Post by Kevin M. Gamble » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:03 pm

Neil,
I was referring to 3 trucks and 6 wheels per skateboard...................

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Post by Neil Gendzwill » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:13 pm

I know you were, but you missed my point so I'll make it clearer: having more money to spend on equipment is an advantage and always has been. There's not much difference in my mind between the guy that can afford a quiver of Roes and Turners and a dozen sets of wheels in various durometers and sizes, and the guy who can put together a six wheeler. They're both way, way beyond the entry level. All kids really need to try slalom is a deck with trucks that turn and wheels that stick.

Steve Collins
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cheap is as cheap does

Post by Steve Collins » Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:00 am

[apologies in advance for long rant from intermediate skater]

The new kid on the basic setup won't be expecting to hold his own against the seasoned rider whose back truck cost more than the kid's whole rig.

On the other hand, when the kid gets hooked he'll start seriously tweaking his gear and saving up for better/more expensive parts just like all of us.

Better gear will not cause a poor skater to beat a great skater. Who doubts that?

I mentioned before that I don't think Chris' 6-wheeler made him faster. Chris is a great skater and would do well on anything. My feeling is that he would have done better at that particular race on a more typical board, but the point is that he was TRYING SOMETHING DIFFERENT. I truly believe the point for him was to see what would happen, not just to win. He's just out there having fun, trying things and pushing buttons. Being a skate manufacturer gives him the ability to do a lot of things that the rest of us can't do. It's R&D and we all benefit. Period.

Other notes: The two back trucks turned slightly differently. The closer to the center of the board, the less turning, the farther from the center, the more turning. That kept them on the same turning arc. The wheels didn't touch. The deck he used was an old comet that he cut down, with a full length center riser for the radikals. He changed wheels during the race, from flywheels to gumballs, since he hadn't had the chance to try it before and was still dialing the wheels.

Think about it, Chris entered a race with some of the best slalomers in the world, on a brand new and totally different setup that he had never riden before and placed 6th. For comparison, I tried the thing and could hardly turn it.

The board I rode at that race had the standard front radikal and rear airflow with 80a manx all around. I didn't do as well as I should have but not because of cheap gear!

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Post by Donald Campbell » Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:41 am

steve you nailed it better than anybody else.
nothing really to add to your comment.
i am doing r&d for 9 months now and as a producer it's easy to do a deck f.e. and throw it away later on.
so,i think,chris did the same.
i could go on top of ams this year,but i'm also sacrificing this goal to r&d.
it is more important to me than a podium at the moment.
what chris did at that race is cool and shows his true spirit.
eventually some others will profit from experiences been made during the race.
even though i highly doubt a six-wheeler,but that's not the point of discussion and only my own view of things.

another thing:
sometimes it's a bit difficult to understand the humor in posts.

after having read the topic till my first reply,i really thought that this discusssion is a joke?
i can't really believe some guys take the things seriously.

enlighten me,if i outed myself,please.

Kevin M. Gamble
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Buh-buy, Bobo

Post by Kevin M. Gamble » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:41 pm

On 7/8/2005 Bob Frias wrote in from United States (24.91.xxx.xxx)
Getting out of slalom and focusing on the thing I love, MUSIC.
Bobo, how can you get out of something you haven't been in?

Andy Bittner
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Touche!

Post by Andy Bittner » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:22 pm

KMG, Where was BoBo's original post made, and has it subsequently disappeared?

(btw... understanding priorities and all, I miss you and Yvonne. C'mon down and see us sometime.)

Kevin M. Gamble
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Why, Bobo, Why!!??

Post by Kevin M. Gamble » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:30 pm

Bobo's retirement post was submitted on the Buy, Sell, Trade forum @ NCDSA

Wesley Tucker
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Phone Words

Post by Wesley Tucker » Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:39 am

I don't know who the genius is that decided SPELLING a phone number was cool, but it's probably the single-most irritating trend since "Achy Breaky Heart." If we catch the SOB, we'll serve him up with cole slaw and home fries! For those who wish to discuss this further, my number is 843-875-9005

(That's eightfourthreeeightsevenfiveninezerozerofive for those of you trying desperately to be part of the "in" crowd.)

Oh. Jeez. I just realized something. Being a Macintosh user, I never thought of this: some of the more recent discount WinTel contraptions probably ship without number keys. So, y'all just keep on doing the best you can.

Wesley Tucker
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New Rule

Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:06 pm

I have written a new rule for Slalom skateboard racing:

"Anyone who points a finger and says someone needs to do something immediately becomes the person who needs to do it."

Seeing as how I decided we needed this rule and knew someone had to write it, I became the person to put it down on paper.

So let it be written, so let it be done!
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December 8, 1980

Post by Wesley Tucker » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:47 am

Do you realize it's been 25 years since Yoko Ono had someone to spend all his time apologizing for her utter lack of talent?
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Bradley Elfman
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finger pointing

Post by Bradley Elfman » Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:10 pm

"Anyone who points a finger and says someone needs to do something immediately becomes the person who needs to do it."
funny, my boss just said the same thing.

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joys of flying

Post by Etienne de Bary » Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:11 am

A passenger had a panic attack on this plane and ran away, he was shot in the back and killed, then they kept passangers with hands on their heads for one hour into the plane while they were checking the luggages. It took several more hours to the FBI to decide this was not the start of a new wave of terrorist attacks.

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C.M. Guerrero/El Nuevo Herald, via Associated Press
Passengers debarked a plane with their hands above their heads at Miami International Airport.
New-York Times wrote:
Air Marshals Shoot and Kill Passenger in Bomb Threat

By ABBY GOODNOUGH
and MATTHEW L. WALD
Published: December 8, 2005

[...]
Mr. Alpizar and his wife, Anne Buechner, had boarded American Airlines Flight 924 to Orlando around 2 p.m. and the plane was waiting to taxi when Mr. Alpizar, 44, "uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb," Mr. Bauer said.

Two air marshals aboard the flight confronted Mr. Alpizar, who then ran from the Boeing 757 and onto the jetway connecting it to the airport concourse. The marshals followed and ordered him to the ground, said Brian Doyle, a spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security.

"He then appeared to be reaching into a carry-on bag, and the air marshals proceeded consistent with their training," Mr. Doyle said. "Shots were fired as the team attempted to subdue the individual."

Mr. Bauer said that members of the Miami-Dade Police Department's bomb squad detonated Mr. Alpizar's luggage on the tarmac and that it had contained no explosives. Dogs sniffed luggage that had been loaded onto the plane but found nothing.

One passenger on the flight, Mary Gardner, told a local television station that Mr. Alpizar's wife had said he was bipolar and had not taken his medication. Ms. Gardner told WTVJ-TV in Miami that Mr. Alpizar had suddenly run down the aisle from the back of the plane toward first class and that his wife had followed.

"She ran after him, and all of a sudden there were four or five shots," Ms. Gardner said. She added that the police boarded the plane afterward and told the passengers to put their hands on their heads.

[...]

Natalia Cayon, 16, was on the plane and continued her trip to Orlando. Ms. Cayon, who was traveling from Colombia, said everybody got down on the floor after the shots were fired. She said she was crying, as were many of the other passengers.

After the shooting, Ms. Cayon said, the passengers stayed on the plane for about an hour. When they were allowed off, they went into the terminal through a private entrance.

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Re: joys of flying

Post by Pat Chewning » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:00 am

Etienne de Bary wrote:A passenger had a panic attack on this plane and ran away, he was shot in the back and killed, then they kept passangers with hands on their heads for one hour into the plane while they were checking the luggages. It took several more hours to the FBI to decide this was not the start of a new wave of terrorist attacks.
Etienne: That's a very biased way of saying what really happened.

A passenger made a mistake of claiming to have a bomb and the threat was averted when US Air Marshals shot him when he refused to surrender. This passenger's mistake caused a several hour delay for the other passengers as officials took statements and searched every piece of baggage for explosives. This was to ensure the safety of the passengers and future passengers on that airplane.

Sad that this had to happen, but I don't fault the Air Marshals.

-- Pat

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:49 am

This passanger had a bipolar disorder. If you ever saw an onset of this affliction, you will did the same as the marshall...

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Re: joys of flying

Post by Etienne de Bary » Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:51 am

Pat Chewning wrote:This was to ensure the safety of the passengers and future passengers on that airplane.
Pat,

- The shooter himself admits the speech was rather undecodable.
- The victim's wife was screeming her husband was out of his mind all the time, her speech was clearly understood by the passengers.
- The victim was shot in the back while running away on the vast tarmac.

- The passangers were kept hands on head for 1h inside the plane while the other marshals were searching a bomb under their asses Really a very comfortable and safe situation!

The simplest and only explanation is to quote the official version "the air marshals proceeded consistent with their training": The marshal had but a very narrow set of options, after the summations the shooting comes automaticly (shoot to kill of course, about 4 bullets in vital parts), then what to do with the passanger ? They kept them frozen, until some manager makes a decision.
He shot the guy dead because there was no training process he could refer to if the guy went out of reach of his gun.
Then he had no process at all to care of the passengers, so he used the processes he had: suspects arrests.

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Post by Etienne de Bary » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:02 pm

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:If you ever saw an onset of this affliction, you will did the same as the marshall...
Jadranko, i don't think you realise what you are saying. i have not been trained to shoot people dead in the back and i have not been trained to keep dozens people desperate with fear under threat of my gun.
i've been trained to always make decisions that make sense to me, because i should carry the guilt of my acts alone, which sometimes make me uneasy when everybody else is relaxed.

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Post by Troy Smart » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:42 pm

The Air Marshalls were faced with a situation where a passenger of an airplane allegedly claimed he had a bomb in his bag and then after repeated warnings would not stop, would not drop his bag, and then reached into it.

They shot him.

As they should have.

In this day and age some situations warrant restraint and some don't. I think this definately falls into the latter catagory don't you?

The Air Marshalls also did'nt know the exact situation. Was this guy a terrorist? Were there more? Until they knew, everyone had to stay on the plane and be searched. Unfortunate but necessary.
We know this. You know this. Don't be a dick.

Thanks to Bush and others you have plenty of other legitimate complaints against the U.S. Lets not create more out of thin air OK?

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Post by Etienne de Bary » Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:06 pm

Why do you try to make sense to it ? There is none.
The victim is responsable for his death because he acted insane, you say, but everything is insane in the story. Maybe you have other sources that describe things diferently, i do not know. This feature seems to report things thoughtfully.

i'm afraid if you think the marshalls acted right i cannot agree with you at all. This is a situation of complete anarchy and mess.
If you think an official allowed to shoot in the public has enough of a pavlovian stimuli kind military training and does not need to have a proper decision making and common sense training, we do not have the common ground just to discuss. The marshall did not think the guy was a terrorist, but that's not the problem, the problem is that he did not think period.

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where would this reasoning stop

Post by Bradley Elfman » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:00 pm

it is a sad & tragic sign of our times that find people who normally seem reasonable justifying murdering innocent people in the name of an abstract purpose. Where would this end if we continue. What kind of world would we be living in if we continually justified killing innocent people. If the "bad guys", whoever they may be, perpetrated this crime, they would be called cowards and terrorists themselves.

As pointed out by Etienne, it is even more tragic as these are "trained" professionals who should have been protecting, not killing. I think as soon as the story broke, we all knew there was no bomb. One person reports a mentally ill man whose English speaking skills were probably very limited, has a bomb, and he is now all but dead, like a violent video game, and shot by men who could not be identified by their uniform, as they did not wear one, who could have easily and quietly apprehended the murder victim and his luggage while he was still alive, and who should have been speaking in Spanish, as the plane was coming from Columbia.

It is not surprising that Air Marshalls see themselves as modern cowboys, Wyatt Earps in a lawless land; but it is sad that others justify their actions, setting the stage for continued murder of innocent people by the "authorities", where "authorized personnel" can shoot whomever they please whenever they please in the name of fighting terrorists or whatever current official rationale has been created, as did the British police recently who held a man down in the subway, then shot him eight times, while it turned out, as in this case, all facts given by the authorities were proved wrong by all witnesses and videos, thus setting the stage for legalized murder in Miami; and once again the media distorted the facts in the name of patriotism.

The facts: an innocent man is dead, while his murderers are now free to kill again; and maybe next time one of your family, wfe, husband, children, mother, father... travels on an airplane, some passenger will report a bomb and you will probably not respond the same when the justified murder is reported that one of your family has been shot and killed.

Hey who cares. He was only some immigrant!

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Post by Etienne de Bary » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:29 pm

We still have no idea why the cops killed this brazilian guy in London. Not so long ago, and still today, the british police was an exemple of perfect behavior. I personally was very impressed a few years ago when my parents in law's luggages were entirely searched in a british airport, "-... oh, and would you mind if i had a look in that little pocket too ? - eh, ... of course please do..." and again and again (there was a lot) in that perfect civil and quiet mood, not the slightest tension, incredible!
Basic rule of course is never to run away from a cop, but maybe not in Brazil in fact.

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Post by Etienne de Bary » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:32 pm

Troy Smart wrote:everyone had to stay on the plane and be searched.
Who should not be searched, i wonder ?

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:32 pm

So, Brad and Etienne,

Tell us, how many years do the two of you have in law enforcement? How much training have you had in issues of probable cause, justified force, optimum threat assessment and public safety?

Tell us about the classes you've taken in terrorist identification, crowd control and firearms use?

Please, tell us everything that provides you with such meaningful insight to condemn this Air Marshall as a "murderer" that you didn't get off of CNN? Tell us how the shooting death of one deranged passenger at an airline terminal can be described as "anarchy?" Tell us how a guy in France of all fucking places can point his finger across the Atlantic Ocean and pass judgement on the actions of others?

By the way, Etienne, speaking of anarchy, have all the cars burned out or are there still smoldering hulks laying around Paris?
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Post by Etienne de Bary » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:24 pm

Yes our Minister "de l'interieur" (in charge with order) Nicolas Sarkozy would fit fine in a republican government. The cops who are prosecuted for the murder by neglect of 2 kids that started it all have sure not been cleared of the charges, and he won't apologise for insulting the neighbours and families of the victims.

However, after cops were stoned, hassled and injured all kinds of ways and actually performed hundreds of difficult and spectacular arrests [courts were in serious trouble treating so many cases] none of these arrests ended with "rioters" being only notably injured. The cops in charge with that kind of troubles do not carry a gun.
But i wonder : maybe you think burning a car is to be balanced with shooting a man dead ?

Anybody has a gun and everybody is suspect, that's what i call anarchy.
Who in your logic is NOT suspect, can you tell me that ? If the answer is "Everybody is suspect", why don't you start searching and shooting at one another randomly ?

You hide in your middle class neighbourhood, and you pray a lot. You're happy enough as long as the shootings don't get too close.
Last edited by Etienne de Bary on Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:35 pm

What I can tell is that hysterical reactionaries are not interested in logic, only in spouting off nonsense in an attempt to advance a ridiculous agenda.
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Post by Etienne de Bary » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:36 pm

i have no idea who is whom and what that statement means...
Just wanted to add that i think these questions have a place in SS.com, just because slalom skateboard is one rare community where we work something out, together US and non-US people thru our differences and, we should just hope this is still possible i guess.

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Post by Justin Pannulla » Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:12 pm

Some people are going to be pissed at the air marshals either way, because they are air marshals.
If the guy did have a bomb and they tried to "apprehend" him instead of using deadly force, he might have detonated the bomb, and killed everyone on the plane, and then everyone would be saying "what were they thinking? they should have shot him while they had the chance!"

There are so many ways this argument can go, but none are neccessarily "correct".
Ive heard people say how his wife was trying to reason with the marshals, saying that he was out of his right mind, but how can they take that chance? How can they be sure his wife wasnt part of the so-called "attack"?

This is a very delicate situation, and one that is very very hard to fully understand if you are not someone who was physically there.
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Re: joys of flying

Post by Pat Chewning » Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:28 pm

Etienne de Bary wrote:
- The victim's wife was screeming her husband was out of his mind all the time, her speech was clearly understood by the passengers.
- The victim was shot in the back while running away on the vast tarmac.

- The passangers were kept hands on head for 1h inside the plane while the other marshals were searching a bomb under their asses Really a very comfortable and safe situation!
The perpetrator's wife was just a screaming woman when this incident occurred. It is only in hindsight that we learn that she was this man's wife.

The perpetrator was shot while reaching into a bag. He may have turned his back to the shooters.

The passengers indeed had to go through a search/question/screening process. That's normal police work. You don't just let them all go without making sure the situation is safe and you've got all the info from them. The passengers' discomfort was caused by the perpetrator who claimed he had a bomb, not because the police followed the normal process to ensure the passenger's safety and to gather crime-scene information.


-- Pat
Last edited by Pat Chewning on Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Etienne de Bary
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Post by Etienne de Bary » Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:08 pm

Justin Pannulla wrote:If the guy did have a bomb and they tried to "apprehend" him instead of using deadly force, he might have detonated the bomb, and killed everyone on the plane
The guy was shot while running away from the plane. Out of the plane. Running on the Tarmac, the longer they wait, the better the safety. You should read first, etc.

Justin Pannulla
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Post by Justin Pannulla » Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:22 pm

And what if he had a remote-detonation device, with a bomb still on the plane?
Did you ever consider that?
If he had had a bomb, and thats what he was "reaching into his bag" for, there could have been a plane full of dead people right now.

By the way, i wouldnt post a comment without first reading the posts before mine, i am not ignorant, and i am not stupid, i just try to consider ALL possible situations.
I dont see why your trying to prove peoples opinions wrong, isnt that why they are called opinions?

There are so many ways this can go back and forth.
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Wesley Tucker
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:37 pm

Etienne de Bary wrote:The guy was shot while running away from the plane. Out of the plane. Running on the Tarmac, the longer they wait . . .
. . . the closer the guy raving like a lunatic with a bag gets to OTHER PLANES filled with people.

Etienne, ever been to an airport? You have dozens of airplanes all packed into a very tight space. The bomber doesn't have to be ON a plane to blow it up, just near it.

I supposed you'd want the air marshall to just watch this guy run away with a bag . . . and under a fully-loaded 767 right between the wheels where the gas tank is and set off his bomb?

You can make excuses for the perp all day long and condemn the air marshall til you're hoarse, but in the end it's simple: the guy was a threat and the air marshall eliminated the threat. That's what we want and we commend his actions.
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Post by Justin Pannulla » Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:46 pm

Its sad that the man had to lose his life, and im sure nobody is happy about that, but in the world we live in today, its hard....no, impossible to take chances like that when hundreds of lives are potentially at stake.

Im in no way glad that this is the world we live in, but thats just the way it is.
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Post by Tom Thompson » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:23 pm

Wesley - I thought your were riding that big 'ol hill in North Carolina today??

Well said Justin....

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:48 pm

Tom,

Nah. I was supposed to go to funeral today but woke up this morning feeling awful and had no desire to drive to Columbia. The Governor I worked for passed away Wednesday.

It was just as well, though. The church holds 600, the funeral started at 10:30 and it was full with people outside by 8:00. I'm kind of glad I decided not to go.
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shooting on the tarmac

Post by trish erickson » Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:53 am

Darwin's Theory in action!
ts

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air

Post by Mike Ohm » Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:56 pm

Etienne, what would YOU have done?

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purdy pleeze?

Post by Marty Schaub » Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:08 pm

Reasoned with him by talking softly and asking please.....All while Brad was off to get him a latte and a muffin.
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Bias

Post by Andy Bittner » Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:58 pm

Once again, Etienne de Bary has trotted out his well-worn bias against the current US government and the socio-political and economic state of that nation. To do so, he has mis-stated facts, and selectively edited news articles at exactly the moment when he was sure he could get the greatest rise out of anyone not in agreement with his biased viewpoint. I've been aware of Etienne's ugly bias for some time now, and usually just ignore him when he gets this urge to flaunt his sense of personal (and national?) superiority. However, what has me interested (and dismayed?) this time is that otherwise intelligent individuals have chosen to take his bait, not only "wrestling with a pig" (where everyone gets dirty, and the pig loves the whole thing!), but not even challenging his clearly mistaken facts.
Etienne de Bary wrote:The guy was shot while running away from the plane. Out of the plane. Running on the Tarmac, the longer they wait, the better the safety. You should read first, etc.
Wrong! According to Newsweek, Rigoberto Alpizar was shot in the jetway, which is the long, metal tube connecting the aircraft to the terminal building, not on the tarmac. Perhaps Etienne should "read first, etc." Boo and hiss to the individuals who took this bait and went on to argue about whether the guy might've run underneath another aircraft, without first researching the facts themselves.
Etienne de Bary wrote:- The victim's wife was screeming her husband was out of his mind all the time, her speech was clearly understood by the passengers.
...and she was clearly heard to be screaming things like "My husband's sick.", "He's bipolar and he's off his medicine." None of these statements are... "My husband does not have a bomb and he is no threat to anyone but himself."
Etienne de Bary wrote:- The victim was shot in the back while running away on the vast tarmac.
Nothing in my research, thus far, indicates the locations of Mr. Alpizar's wounds. I have been completely unable to find any data confirming Mr. Alpizar was shot in the back, and, again, far from being on the "vast tarmac", Mr. Alpizar and the Air Marshals were in the tight, restricted space of an airport jetway, and, as best as I can understand it, at the end of the jetway closest to the airplane's cockpit.

Some witnesses report Mr. Alpizar's frantic speech as being unintelligible, while others go so far as to say they never heard him mention a bomb. Apparently, if nothing else, the reports of the air marshals indicate Mr. Alpizar threatened to detonate a bomb in his backpack, while confronting those air marshals in the jetway. This could explain why no passengers report hearing Alipzar mention a bomb. Further, given the situation and the proximity of other witnesses, such as the plane's air crew, I find it hard to believe that these trained law enforcement officials murdered a man in cold blood and quickly convened a huddle, agreeing to a communal lie about Mr. Aplizar's asserting he was carrying a bomb.

I know a guy who, amongst other law enforcement duties, spent some post-9/11 time as an air marshal. He's a slalom skateboarder. There are few people in this world for whom I hold as high a regard or as much respect as I do for this person. He is thoughtful, kind, intelligent, gentle, funny, helpful, involved and honestly, earnestly dedicated to his role in the law enforcement community. He is nothing like a Wyatt Earp and, although he is certainly highly trained in the appropriate use of deadly force, not a killer.

I have every confidence that, if this particular individual had been one of the air marshals present and NOT heard Mr. Alpizar mention a bomb, he would not agree to lying to the contrary. I am equally confident that, had my friend heard Mr. Alpizar threaten the presence of a bomb in a backpack, and then, against the demands of the law enforcement officials around him, insisted on reaching into that backpack, my friend would most likely have shot Mr. Alpizar. Following that and becoming aware of the true, unfortunate nature of the situation, I can only imagine, based on what I know of him, it would never be easy for my friend to wash away the mental and emotional trauma of the situation and his involvement therein.

Unfortunately, a growing phenomenon in both the worlds of mental health studies and law enforcement is an act now known as "suicide by cop", where an otherwise mentally ill or emotionally unstable individual will bring his or her own life to an end by performing an act he or she knows will cause law enforcement officials to react with deadly force.

Rigoberto Alpizar is reported to have suffered from a mental illness known as bipolar disorder, a form of manic depression.

Rigoberto Alpizar is reported to have been "off his medicine". Medicines presumably prescribed to contain or control some of the effects of his bipolar disorder.

Witness statements indicate that Mr. Alpizar had been displaying agitated and disagreeable behavior on the first leg of his flight, from Costa Rica to Miami, Florida, and was in the midst of an argument with his wife, a loved one, immediately prior to this fatal incident.

I, myself, am a diagnosed bi-polar manic depressive, although clearly not as severe a case as Mr. Alpizar. Please let me explain to you the type of thoughts that come into such a mind, particularly during those times when one feels unable to get a seemingly important point across to a loved one, who is otherwise a pivotal figure in the bi-polar patient's life. As such an argument escalates, the bi-polar mind quickly rushes through more and more drastic methods of making it clear to the other party just how serious the point and the making of the point is to the bi-polar sufferer, even to the degree of considering self-injury or suicide simply to accentuate the importance of the misunderstood point. I am never going to commit suicide, as it conflicts deeply with my personal spiritual beliefs; but I can tell you, with all sincerity, it has been less than one month since I've been in such a situation myself and had my own thoughts race toward that same alternative, drastic method of making my point.

It seems to me that Rigoberto Alpizar was a mentally ill individual, who, off his medicine and in an escalating interpersonal disagreement with his wife, let the demons of his own mind carry him to this awful, drastic end. For Etienne de Bary to use such a very sad and regrettable situation to draw attention to himself and his own bitter and unbalanced opinions is horrid and, to me, smacks of some mental illness as well; a sad situation made sadder.
Last edited by Andy Bittner on Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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