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Shihan Qu
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Post by Shihan Qu » Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:16 pm

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Shihan Qu
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Post by Shihan Qu » Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:18 pm

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Mike Cividino
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Post by Mike Cividino » Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:52 pm

should have had the friend on the second floor do the taping. And next time buy a walmart deck, it will make losing it a lot easier. But seriously, I would have just kept going, dont stop for em, I dont on my campus...they talk and talk and I just keep rolling along.

Pat Chewning
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Bad publicity

Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:36 am

Sounds like you got what you asked for.

Maybe you need to find a better place to skate, or work within the system to change the rules.

I think you've just torpedo'd any future possibility of getting the rules changed to allow skating there.

-- Pat

Joel Crawley
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Post by Joel Crawley » Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:37 pm

While I feel for your plight the bottom line is you're not allowed to skate on campus. I'm sure it sucks but that's the law/rule.

Wesley Tucker
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:26 pm

There is in the law a provision known as "probable cause." Did Officer Stanley have probable cause to arrest you? Yes.

Did Officer Stanley have probable cause to use excessive force to arrest you? That's a HUGE civil liberty's debate. You said "no" to a police officer. There are those who would argue that you are resisting arrest and the officer must do what is necessary to insure HIS SAFETY and yours. That means no opportunity for you to exercise a physical response to his actions. Those actions can be anything from firmly grasping your board to attempting to run away to reaching into your pocket for a weapon. A policeman ALWAYS errs on the side of greatest maximum possible response from the perpetrator.

Then again, Officer Stanley used the exact same logic that policemen used in arresting Gandhi and Nelson Mandela. When a perpetrator says "no," that's a license to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. In other words, the policeman decides you're guilty and need a good whippin' even before a judge decides the issues in the case. Any good lawyer worth his salt will react to Officer Stanley's actions as being an example of this and tear him apart in court.

Shihan, there are two things you need to find out, or your lawyer already knows how to find out:

1. What is Officer Stanley's record for arrests, behavior and how does he handle a complaint? In other words, has he been reprimanded in the past for being an asshole or is his record spotless?

2. What is the criminal "record" of skateboarding at the Colorado School of Mines? Has there been activity in the past (vandalism, hooliganism, drug-related incidents, etc.) that lead the school to believe skateboarding reflects a less-that-satisfactory element of society? Or did the school just say "no skateboarding" because they are assholes and have no real reason for the ban?

Oh, finally, one last thing: you need to be VERY HONEST with your attorney about YOUR CRIMINAL HISTORY. That means from a spotless model citizen to a mass murderer who's done hard time. If you don't tell your lawyer EVERYTHING, then he'll be stunned and out maneuvered by the school because THEY WILL FIND OUT and use it against you. Be straight up and no baloney. Any obfuscation of the truth will only hurt you.

Get the DENVER POST behind you, get the ACLU on your side and get a lawyer. Hey, the school carries liability insurance. Get a chunk and give your lawyer a third of it. And get that stupid prohibition repealed as part fo the settlement.

Good luck.

P.S. I'm not a lawyer, but it doesn't take a damned lawyer to understand the law. They would like you to believe otherwise so as to jusitify huge retainers and big offices.
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Pat Chewning
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Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:54 pm

http://www.mines.edu/All_about/safety/pages/faq.html#11
11. Can I skateboard/snowboard on campus?

Skateboards and snowboards are not permitted on campus at anytime.
Notice that the rule says that the actual skateboard is not allowed. Not just the activity of skateboarding. This is a very restrictive rule, similar to the "no firearms" allowed.

In another document (http://www.mines.edu/All_about/safety/p ... .more.html) the rule is stated differently:
Operation of ATVs and gopeds (motor powered scooters/skateboards) is not allowed anywhere on campus. Because of past property damage no skateboarding is allowed on campus. For additional information please refer to the CSM Vehicle Operation and Parking Policy available at the DPS office or here.


Notice that this rule states that the act of skateboarding is not allowed, but (presumably) the posession of a skateboard is allowed.

I agree with your assessment that the rule is overly restrictive. Normally, I would disagree when any law enforcement person confiscates a skateboard, but in this case one of the rules clearly states that the actual skateboard is not allowed....

I disagree that you should try to use publicity of this event and your actions to force the campus to change the rules based on public opinion. I believe that this will backfire and you'll only give a further bad image to skateboarding.

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Post by Jonathan Harms » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:00 pm

Shihan, your school's prohibition against skateboarding on campus is bullshit. It may be technically legal, i.e. it may be within the school's rights to ban it, but it's not morally right or defensible. The act of riding a skateboard is no more inherently dangerous than the act of riding a bike. If bikes are allowed on campus, skateboarding should be as well.

Sure, as Mr. Crawley pointed out, skateboarding on your campus is currently against the rules, but that still doesn't mean those rules are just or fair. Sometimes getting arrested for disobeying an unjust law or rule is the best way to publicize that it's unjust. Would I advise you to do so? Not necessarily, as there are other ways that involve less personal risk. But since you're already "in the system," (the justice system, that is), you might as well acknowledge that fact and use it to your advantage.

Thus I agree with Pat's opinion that you need to work to get the no-skateboarding rule changed, although I disagree that you may have ruined whatever chance you might have had to do so--at least, I hope you haven't. In some sense, you may have made it more difficult (since you've taken a hard-line stand and gotten a hard-line response). But the bottom line is that the rule is just begging to be overturned, and you have the opportunity to make it happen.

Having said that, I urge you to do what Wesley advised. Find out whether the no-skateboarding rule is in response to, say, street skaters damaging ledges on campus in the past, or perhaps to a skater getting injured sometime in the past, or whether it's due to a mistaken belief that skateboarding is somehow inherently dangerous for the skater or for the school itself (i.e. do they think that the school is likely to be found liable or negligent if someone is injured and sues the school). If the ban is mainly due to a fear of being sued, you should have a fairly good chance of getting it changed or rescinded. (With a little homework, you should be able to show that skating is no more risky than, say, riding a bike and thus no more deserving of a ban.) If, however, the ban it's a response to property damage or to skaters hanging out and causing a nuisance, I still think you can get it changed, but you may have to emphasize a different aspect to do so. (Argue that skating for transportation does no harm to property and therefore is no more deserving of a ban than biking.)

A brief Web search yielded this precedent that might help: Oregon State University has instituted a policy that allows skating for transportation but that bans and imposes penalties for reckless skating or property damage: http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/OAR ... 6_030.html

If this is really important to you, talk to a lawyer, and talk to the ACLU. If further publicity would help, they may be able to help you with it.

Other ideas:
See if your school newspaper will cover the story. Do they have a debating club at your school? See if they will take it up as a topic.

Post your story on NCDSA in the Skateboarding Law section and ask for feedback.

Contact skateboarding magazines or check their Web sites for links for further information to see if someone else has already been through what you're going through.

And should you prevail in this matter--which again, I think you can and should--BE GRACIOUS AND COURTEOUS to those on the "other side," e.g., any school officials who get involved, and especially Officer Stanley, should you encounter him again. Don't gloat, don't showboat. Simply move on and treat him with respect, remembering always that right is on your side. Although you may feel unfairly treated, remember that it's due to an underlying cause: an unjust rule. Show that the consequences of enforcing an unjust rule are themselves unjust and unfair. Work to get that unfair rule changed.
Last edited by Jonathan Harms on Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pat Chewning
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Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:13 pm

For a good example of how skateboarding is regulated and integrated into the bicycle rules, take a look at Colorado State University rules.

http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CSUPD/beep.html

Skateboards are treated like bicycles.
Skateboarding is allowed.
Pedestrians have right of way, overtaking signal must be made by skateboarders.
Skateboards can be confiscated only to facilitate identification of the skateboarder.
Skateboarding cannot be on benches, rails, landscaping, etc.
There are designated "dismount" areas.

You might try to work within the system and get Colorado School of Mines to adopt similar rules .....

- Pat

Shihan Qu
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Post by Shihan Qu » Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:24 am

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Joel Crawley
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Post by Joel Crawley » Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:04 am

I'm not going to debate this on the internet nor did I say the law is "right." However there are many laws that aren't exactly right. But that doesn't mean you can disregard the ones you don't agree with. You most certainly can have your car impounded. Even for a minor traffic violation. It doesn't happen much but it can. You may be the model skateboard. Courteous, responsible, etc. but I can almost bet there are others that probably aren't. They can't just make a rule exception just for you.

I was almost going to agree with you that taking the board was a bit over the top until I read your first posting stating this was the second time this particular officer stopped you. As far as I'm concerned you got exactly what you deserve. You most certainly "ask for" (sic) what happened to you. You were riding a skateboard where it was prohibited.

You resisting arrest (which is exactly what you committed by not surrendering your board) isn't going to help your cause in getting the school to change its mind on the skateboard ban. As far as I'm concerned you've done nothing but set that back.

Is the ban bad? Yes. Would I be upset if I were there? Yes. Would I break the law by boarding where I wasn't suppose to? Probably. But I wouldn't be b*tching when things went wrong. You know the saying..... Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

Don't get the idea I'm trying to bust your chops. I'm not. I think it stinks but until the day you can get the school to change its policy you don't have a leg to stand on (as far as I'm concerned) when you take it upon yourself to skate.

Shihan Qu
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Post by Shihan Qu » Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:55 am

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Justin Pannulla
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Post by Justin Pannulla » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:23 am

I can't see why they would ban any skateboard, if you are using as transportation.
I can see if youre at a school, throwing yourself down 20 stair sets, thats different, but just cruising around? Thats rediculous.

I was warned recently to have the police called on me when i rode my board to a friends in an apartment complex.
I asked why im not allowed to ride my board (as transportation) through the section, she said it was "trespassing", but all i was doing was visiting a friend, but i just happened to be on a board, so suddenly its trespassing, but the 13-17 year olds who dont even live in the section are allowed to ollie boards on their side set up in the middle of the street, and they dont bother to move when cars come, forcing them to go around.
The reply was, "Your a grown man, you should know better!"
And she asked what apartment my friend lived in, and i asked why, and she said she would have him evicted if she saw me on a board in the section again.
Needless to say, i didnt tell her anything and gave her a polite goodbye as she screamed at me.
Last edited by Justin Pannulla on Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joel Crawley
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Post by Joel Crawley » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:24 am

You're right I'm no lawyer. I have no idea other than as I said you were doing something that was against the rules got "busted" for it and cried about it.

You sound like a typical spoiled kid that has everything given him and when you finally got out into the big world you found there are rules that right or wrong you have to follow and didn't want to.

Have fun longboarding on campus. You probably should've met with the CSM police chief before attempting to do what you knew was wrong. Who knows? You could've saved yourself the hassle you went through (seems as though they were open to discussion) and we wouldn't be jousting back and forth on the internet.

I'll comment no further on the subject.

Shihan Qu
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Post by Shihan Qu » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:50 am

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Pat Chewning
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Wrong approach, right outcome.

Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:09 am

Congratulations on getting the rule at least partially changed.

Did you happen to show them the CSU (Colorado State University) rules? They seemed pretty reasonable to me.

Nice outcome, but I can't say I would endorse this method for other similar situations.

Sometimes, getting the "right" result is not as important as using a calm, reasonable approach which does not leave a trail of bodies. I'll bet that this police officer, once he gets back from his retraining will be likely to harbor bad feelings. And if you should stray outside of the allowed boundaries of the new skateboarding rules and he's around ... well I wouldn't want to be there.

The downside of your confrontational approach could have been very, very bad for you and for other skateboarders. I'm glad it worked out. I wouldn't play that hand again, you lucked out this time.

Justin Pannulla
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Post by Justin Pannulla » Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:26 am

...You probably should've met with the CSM police chief before attempting to do what you knew was wrong. Who knows? You could've saved yourself the hassle you went through...
...I can't say I would endorse this method...
I'm going to have to agree with these statements, there are better ways you could have handled this situation without making people think bad of skaters in general.
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Post by Etienne de Bary » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:11 am

it's difficult to judge the process if we do not actually know the situation, particularly how far the cops were actually rude, what is the relation between the particular cop and his hierarchy (how far and deeply he was really backed by his superiors), between cops and the university hierarchy, and so on... As it seems there was a kind of consensus to back Qu, he may have unlock a situation that would have stayed as so if he had wrote dozen letters of complain let's say... Particularly hard to judge from here where we have a very different approach of violence and the administrations in charge.
Still, Qu, i suspect your reaction was more impulsion than strategy.
Last edited by Etienne de Bary on Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Justin Pannulla
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Post by Justin Pannulla » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:16 am

Did you ever get your board back?
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Post by Erik Basil » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:18 am

Rough story, and now that you've taken it to where you have, I suggest you get proactive and interactive with that Police Chief. Those rules that Chewning posted from the CSU are great, and are aimed at the legitimate problems that skateboards and bikes/scooters, etc can have on a college campus: damage and personal injury. Why not work with the Chief to adopt proactive rules that allow skating for transport and fun that's non-destructive?

At UCSD, we have rules that allow skating for transport, except on the main walk during peak student/pedestrian times (8-4, M-F), and these rules apply to bikes and scooters, too. The rule is aimed at reducing crashes between pedestrians and is very reasonable. On top of that, "thrash/grind/vandalism" whether it's with a skateboard or anything, is brutally enforced against (as it should be). That's what schools and landowners care about: vandalism.
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Post by Karl Floitgraf » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:09 pm

). Unlike other forms of skateboarding, longboarding involves no loitering or damage of curbs or stairway rails of any kind. Longboarders are actually known to sweep the vacant areas they use. So often the location is left in a better condition than it was found in. Longboards are an environmentally friendly transportation method that many students use to commute to school everyday instead of cars.
This is from my proposal to the school commitee for the High School Longboard club.
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Post by Charles Thomas » Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:51 pm

I think you should get your facts straight about exactly what happened that day and make sure your not just exaggerating what took place to make yourself look better.

I skate in lots of places, but if my friends and I find a rule is in place for a certain area, we show our respect and don't skate there. And we certainly cooperate politely with any authority figures.

Skate boarding in its overall purpose is an good thing and lots of fun, but it appears you knew the rules on the campus for quite some time and made a conscious choice to break them. If you want a rule like that changed, you should do it by going to the school's board of directors or whoever is in charge of making such rules and approach it diplomatically, not with physical challenges to those whose only job it is to enforce the rules whether they agree with them or not themselves. The officer you dealt with was only doing his job and you chose to break the law right in front of him and then not cooperate. You obviously rode your board in front of the officers a second time that day on purpose with the hopes of creating a reaction. You didn't cooperate when you were ordered to do so and the officers were justified in their actions and have the legal backing to do what they needed to detain you. So stop crying over spilt milk. Take responsibility for your actions and grow up a little. Start obeying rules and laws.

I agree with what was posted above that you should look into changing the rule on the ban against skateboarding for those that use it for transportation. But I think you should do it the right way by coming up with solid information and a good plan to keep people from abusing the privilege should it become changed. Take a look at CSU's rules and come up with something that looks like them, but are adapted to your campus. I also agree with something else posted above... that you should change your attitude towards the police and the officer who contacted you and be polite and courteous from this point forward. I seriously doubt they hold some sort of grudge against you. Have you seen them since the incident? Were they polite to you if you did encounter them? I have lots of cop friends and I would venture to guess that if you were to meet the officers again, and you were polite, they would be too. If you would have had a better attitude that day and handled things by politely taking the ticket and giving up your board (you would have gotten it back eventually I am sure), then you and all the others who skate on campus would be in a better position to fight the rule.

Right now you have created a black eye for skaters on campus by your actions and the only way you can fix it is by being polite, courteous, and diplomatic in your approach to the rule decision makers and to the police. If you can gain their respect you'll probably get somewhere with this, but making a fuss through media and such probably won't get you far.

Good Luck!
Always have your facts right and don't make stuff up... liars suck!

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