Slalom. A sport or not?

Discussion Forum
Post Reply
Vlad Popov
Moscow-Washington
Moscow-Washington
Posts: 1543
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Post by Vlad Popov » Tue Nov 26, 2002 5:16 am

I came across something interesting in the context of a recent discussion on http://www.ncdsa.com: slalom - a sport or not?

At first I was going to quote Anatoly Matsukevich again (!) from Slalom#12, pg 14, but I think this topic is worth a discussion.
In 1990 Matsukevich co-wrote and published a book in Russia called "Fashion or Sport: Skateboarding, Windsurfing."

I say slalom is sport. Modern skateboarding is high school/street fashion.

Ideas?

Do share please.

Brian Morris
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Hawthorne, NJ
Contact:

Post by Brian Morris » Tue Nov 26, 2002 5:32 am

To get technical about it, I would say skateboarding is a sport, and to quote Noah,
"Slalom is not a sport, its a discipline"

Brain
Wobbler

Vlad Popov
Moscow-Washington
Moscow-Washington
Posts: 1543
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Post by Vlad Popov » Tue Nov 26, 2002 5:43 am

Brian,
I too agree with Noah who could have been quoting somebody else who said it in a different context, that was something like that: slalom is not a very appealing sport, because one has to work his butt off to achieve something, and the amount of work needed to succeed makes slalom unattractive to many, thus, slalom is more like a discipline, not a sport.
In reality, everything about slalom qualifies it to be a sport. As Matsukevich put it - “a horse sport”, but a sport nevertheless.
Vlad.
On 2002-11-25 23:32, Brian Morris wrote:
To get technical about it, I would say skateboarding is a sport, and to quote Noah,
"Slalom is not a sport, its a discipline"

Brain

John Gilmour
Team Roe Racing
Team Roe Racing
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am
Location: USA

Post by John Gilmour » Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:44 pm

I thought of slalom as a sport when it was a sport in the 70's. Then it became a form of less tedious exercise for me in the 80's. In the 1990's it became a social sport.

Now slalom has many of the same attributes available as it is social given how many people meet each other. Alone it is a form of exercise- and with friends or in a competition...it is a sport.

Sports have rules- we have plenty of those.

People get upset when people cheat in sports.

Arguements flare in sports.

I don't think we could classify Slalomboarding as an activity- like playing "fortress".

It is a funny sport since we often build skateboards up from scratch for each event- constantly testing wheels,bearings, bushings, wheelbases, flex paterns, truck geometries, arm styles, foot placement, tucks, course strategies, opponent strategies, qualification strategies, and other things.

You could also just skate your ass off and hope that you could make up for equipment mismatches with pure physical conditioning.

Or you could be a strange freak of nature with an unusual style unlike anyone else with incredibly fast ankles and bent at the waist posture, stay up all night before a race and drink/smoke, help set up all the staging equipment and help break it down. (we need more of these guys)or perhaps- that guy has given it the most thought of all.

Vlad Popov
Moscow-Washington
Moscow-Washington
Posts: 1543
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Post by Vlad Popov » Tue Nov 26, 2002 11:42 pm

Ok, slalom is a social sport. <blink> BAM!</blink> I like it and do agree! Seems like most people who show up on our local hill display a stronger preference for the social aspect of slalom :lol:
And I do prefer to skate my ass off. And there are usually parties Friday night. And a race is usually on Saturday, and I need a beer before I can even skate. And it used to be a cigarette too.
Yep, :roll: gulp-gulp-gulp (feeling better now), Slalom is a sport (exhaling tobacco smoke slowly)...
My kinda sport!

ur13
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:51 pm

Post by ur13 » Wed Nov 27, 2002 4:21 am

This idea of "skateboarding is a lifestyle" is bunk. Sure when you are about 18 it seems cool to pretend you live a skateboard lifestyle but people grow up, or they should.

Street skating is less of a sport now-a-days and more of an art form. The level of technically ability that a good street skater has right now is absolutely insane. The foot control and body control a top street skater has is beyond even the best soccer players. Alot of modern street skating is positioning and posing for the look. But a top street skater in 2002 is beyond ANYTHING that has ever come before in skateboarding.

Vert skaters currently are just as much a minority in skating as we are, I would assume the numbers are fairly close worldwide between slalom skaters and vert skaters, the edge goes to very skaters though. The bucky laseks, burt burnquists, etc right now are absolutely insane....bringing the term of skateboarding as an art form to new heights.

Slalom skateboarding is a sport AND an art form. Watch Gilmour or Charlie Ransom or Mike Maysey skate and tell me they aren't grace and power in everyway. Slalom skateboarding is dedication....training to race (as any race form is). Lay it on the line at a race and let the chips fall were they may. Just you and the clock and the course. The purity of it is what draws me.

Wesley Tucker
1961-2013 (RIP)
1961-2013 (RIP)
Posts: 3279
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Wesley Tucker » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:48 pm

All I know is that if Bass fishing gets on ESPN, then by God slalom skateboarding certainly deserves a little air time now and then!

Gilmour talks about setting up equipment before each event. Hah. How about deciding whether or not to spend $22,000 for a boat that get's an extra .5 knots on a glassy lake. That's setting up.

Where I often see the confusion coming in when it comes to what is and what isn't a "sport" is whether or not a particular sport is also ATHLETIC. Most all athletes are sportsmen, but not all sportsmen are athletes. It's hard to lump Edwin Moses in the same category as Minnesota Fats. Certainly both men were sportsmen, but it would be a tremendous stretch to ever consider Fats an athlete. In the early days of auto racing, rarely was there any consideration for physical training or endurance preparation. The guys with enough money jumped in his car and whoever went the farthest the fastest usually won. Nowadays, though, its hard to find a NASCAR or F1 driver who doesn't spend as much time in the weight room as in the garage. Sports meets athletics and the result are drivers who can go faster, last longer and maintain an edge that allows men and machines to achieve things never before imagined. Ever notice that even though all kinds of rules were imposed in the 1980s (restrictor plates, no more turbos, etc.) cars today are going faster than ever? Part of that is engineering, but a large part is also because drivers are able to push the physical envelope farther than ever before. So less horsepower achieve faster speeds.

The same is true in Slalom skateboarding. I think its fair to say that every slalom rider is a sportsman. I also think its fair to say that every SUCCESSFUL slalom racer is an athlete who considers physical preparation a necessity in order to achieve sporting success. So to answer the original question, there's no doubt that what we do is sporting. There's also no doubt that in the future the best athletes will probably win the most races. There's also, though, the realization that it's not NECESSARY to be an athlete to enjoy slalom racing (just ask Tway and Parsons.) If you want to see past the first round, though, its going to be inevitable that skaters pursue an ATHLETIC regimen as well as a SPORTING one.

Oh, about street skaters. Are they athletes? Certainly. More often than not, though, its completely unintentional. Some kid decides he just likes to skate. Then he spends 6 hours a days, 7 days a week in the street working his ass off learning tricks and developing a style. Next thing you know his cardio-vascular performance is incredible, his muscle mass has skyrocketed, his BMI falls through the floor and he has the reflexes of a lynx. Nah, he's not an athlete, he's just a skateboarder . . . a skateboarder with the physique any swimmer or runner would die for!

Wesley Tucker
1961-2013 (RIP)
1961-2013 (RIP)
Posts: 3279
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Wesley Tucker » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:57 pm

A quick addendum:

One of the things as a kid that I realized that made skateboarders "different" than most other athletes is that we, well, skateboard.

Ever listen to ball players (basket-, base-, foot-, etc.) talk about practice? All they do is bitch about wind sprints, tackling drills, shagging flies, more wind sprints and then to wrap it all up running laps. I've heard guys talk more affectionately about time in the Hanoi Hilton than having to endure track and field practice. And swimming? Geez, every swim coach in America starts practice and 5:00 in the morming. Seems that participating in these sports is one endless agonizing torture session after another.

Well, we practice too. Guess what? When we practice, we skateboard. We get out in the street and ride. We ride a lot. We set up cones and ride. We go to parks and ride. We find wide open mountain roads and ride. We get with friends and ride. We ride alone. We ride our skateboards til we drop. Sure, we're practicing, but more than that we're riding our boards. When all those other guys practice, they go through hell. When we practice, we ride a skateboard.

No wonder they all say nasty things about us. They're so friggin' jealous they can't see straight! Ain't it great to be a skateboarder? Leave the windsprints and laps to the athletes. I'll get my board and ride some more.

Vlad Popov
Moscow-Washington
Moscow-Washington
Posts: 1543
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:12 pm

I don’t know how long Tway is going to keep this <A HREF="http://www.users.cloud9.net/~wbtway/jg.mpg">video</A>of John Gilmour at the Farm 2002 race on his site. Watch the spectators-it looks as though an ambulance just passed and the cars are getting back on the road! Done right Slalom is a good spectators sport. And compressed video makes it appear faster then it is/was.

Jack Smith
Morro Bay Skate legend
Morro Bay Skate legend
Posts: 736
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Morro Bay, California
Contact:

Post by Jack Smith » Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:02 pm

Wes...
Please refrain from using the word "all" when talking about athletes from other sports. My guess would be that you have little experience in participating in other sports. Just a guess, and I apologize if I am incorrect.

I have participated in traditional sports as a player and coach for most of my 46 years. Guess what Wes, I don't say nasty things about skateboarders. Myself and the great percentage of my "jock" friends stand in awe of what skaters can do on their boards. None of them are jealous of skateboarders, maybe a bit envious of their skills.

All the bitching about wind sprints, tackling drills, shagging flies, more wind sprints and then to wrap it all up running laps...is part of the experience. Do you really believe that all these athletes would go through that if they didn't enjoy it?
No one is holding a gun to their head, I play sports because I love to. If these athletes hate practice so much why did I always have to chase members of the high school basketball team I coached out of the gym? The only way I could get the pole vaulters I coached to leave was to wait until the sun went down.

As a high school basketball player and track and field athlete, I loved practice. Some of my best friends to this very day are guys
I played sports with in high school. In fact four of us still play on the same city league hoops team.

Skateboarders do not have a monopoly on fun, it comes in numerous forms.

Oh by the way, Paul Dunn was a high school basketball and football player. As an adult he also played city league basketball and softball. He also was an assistant basketball coach at the high school level...
imagine that.

John Gilmour
Team Roe Racing
Team Roe Racing
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am
Location: USA

Post by John Gilmour » Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:10 am

Maybe Wesley just has had a different experience.

I am not a huge fan of organized sports like Baseball, Basketball, Football,etc. (Damn if we could have the salary of just one benched NBA player for our entire sport we would be making real progress)

Why, Perhaps because so often I see one player take the blame for losing a series, championship, whatever. Also you might see one player take nearly all the glory. You could practice and train like crazy and still lose.

In slalom- whatever you accomplish is yours. You practice- you reap the benefits. You set up a little slalom course - you'll meet people. You help someone out- they'll help you out. It seems to be a more "direct" sort of thing.

When I was in Highschool in Connecticut I did feel that the regular athletes had very little respect for skateboarders.

In California I wouldn't expect this type of attitude since Skateboarding started in California.

Ride a Skateboard almost anywhere else on the globe if you are over 30 and most people wonder what you are doing on a kid's toy at your age. Not so in California where skateboarding is accepted and embraced. You could be in California -65 years old and riding a skateboard and people would say "wow that's cool, wish my Dad would do that". Anywhere else and you'd get really strange looks, ......people questioning your sanity- thinking you were endangering yourself.

I started a small skateboard club in highschool and we had downhill and slalom in it. Kids in the Club got jackets that did not say "South Kent Hockey" or "South Kent Football" they said "South Kent Downhill Slalom" Or "South Kent Freestyle" and we all caught crap for it. They thought the downhill slalom was skiing and the freestyle was swimming.

The kids couldn't understand why we wouldn't conform to the norm. Even today I see kids get crap for skateboarding- even though Tony Hawk has done so much to improve skating's image it may still take a little longer.

As for practice I would have to say that skateboarding is one of the most fun sports to practice. I was 6th in my state for one of my sports- and I never found practice much fun. I also rowed Crew and found that to be grueling in practice, and I ran Cross Country which also was incredibly boring- despite some pretty amazing scenery. I find it difficult to motivate myself to run, swim, lift weights etc... but I don't find it hard to go out and slalom, surf, snowboard, learn to kite board, snorkle, scuba dive, waterski, wakeboard, jetski, powerski, etc. I really can't think of when I am bored doing these sports.

Practicing for those activities is fun in it of itself- without requiring competition as a driving motivation. But being in the humid outfield getting bitten by gnats while staring at the sun waiting for a popfly that might never come... never seemed as much fun as the other things. But then again I never played the outfield.

Jack you and your fellow Californians are very fortunate to see skateboarding accepted in your community- it truly wish it was like that everywhere. The people that make it accepted are you and your fellow Californians who may surf and find skateboarding to be a comforting side sport of surfing.

Realistically Wesley can't say "all" but it would almost be fair to say "all" with the exception of California". Not that you are wrong Jack. It's that the rest of the world is wrong. Skateboarding is fun and reasonably safe so long as you skate within reason.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2002-11-27 19:37 ]</font>

Jack Smith
Morro Bay Skate legend
Morro Bay Skate legend
Posts: 736
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Morro Bay, California
Contact:

Post by Jack Smith » Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:48 am

John, I hope you're wrong. The traditional sports athletes that I knew when I lived in Iowa were very interested in and supportive of my skateboarding.

As I was reading John's post it was refreshing to see how he referred to his own experiences. It's frustrating when someone lumps all the members of a certain group together and makes a blanket statement about said group.

A great deal of the crap that skateboarders have directed at them is brought own by themselves and their smart-ass attitudes. Of course not all skaters fall into this category. The skaters today have this "I am a bad-ass, hardcore, punk, rebel" image shoved down their throat monthly by the magazines and videos/DVDs (I work for the largest distributor of action sports videos/dvds in the world, the content of some of which I find disturbing). So they really don't know any different.

I have never been of the thinking that just because I skate, I have to act a certain way or listen to a certain genre of music. I have always skated because I enjoyed the way it feels.

John Gilmour
Team Roe Racing
Team Roe Racing
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am
Location: USA

Post by John Gilmour » Thu Nov 28, 2002 2:14 am

I think you are right about a lot of the video content. Unfortunately as not many skating adults are buying videos -the producers cater mostly to adolesent kids.

I think it would be really funny if tennis adopted a hardcore image. Somehow McEnroe's temper tantrums weren't all that convincing to me. If he had a dozen nose rings - and a tennis racquet shaped like a battleaxe.......

At this point skateboarding is starting to outgrow it's inital demographic as more snowboarders/wakeboarders of all ages look for something to do in the off season.

The hard thing is trying to introduce skateboarding (not just slalom) to adults. What video could you show them? Do you carry anything you would reccommend?

ur13
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:51 pm

Post by ur13 » Thu Nov 28, 2002 3:03 am

to introduce skateboarding to "the masses" I personally would recommend the following

- "freewheelin" - get past the chessy story line to see the purity of rolling down a hill on a skateboard, wind in your long blonde hair and sun in your face. The purity of the riding in the movie stoke me everytime I see it

- blind's "video days" - Really just Gonz's part. Showing what street skating once was riding to some damn good Jazz.

-Rodney Mullen's part in Plan Bs "questionable" video. Shows what is possoble on a skateboard technically.

- Mollica's "La Costa 2002" DVD, slalom at it best looking, bitch and moan all you want about the courses those two days (lord knows I did my share)...but everyone of us who were there had one amazing weekend, Mollica's DVD shows the stoke and grace we all watched that weekend in July.

honorable mention
-Anything with Matt hensley in the h-street days
-The Search for animal chin
-Foundation's Art bars & Seagulls
-Bones brigade video show

video clips (or recent memory)
-Gilmour vs. Dunn Cambria
-Brad Edwards slopestyle run La Costa 2001
-Dan Gesmer's four wheels down
-the video clip from Da farm 1.0
-the turner promo video on our site
-hackett's deathbox video "pink motel"


just my thoughts

Post Reply