World Championships - New venue proposal

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Pierre-Yves Ritschard
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World Championships - New venue proposal

Post by Pierre-Yves Ritschard » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:17 am

Hi,

As most of you already know we are organizing the Paris Slalom World Cup
for the third year in May 2005.
We are proud to say that this event has been a real success the past two
years, it seems almost everyone enjoyed it.
The venue is also one of the greatest for a slalom event,
everyone who's been there will tell you that slalom and parties right at
the feet of the eiffel is just awesome.

Thanks to the huge media coverage, the number of riders present and our
own efforts, we have been able to raise public
funding for the event, so we will be able to eliminate the few sketchy
issues that are left to deal with for 2005.

Jack Smith mentionned last year that it was not mandatory that the World
Championship be held at Morro Bay, if this is not the case we would
gladly take on this challenge and hold it in Paris. We feel that every
requirement expected from a world championnship is and will be met at
our event.

We'd appreciate your feedback and input on wether you like this idea or not.

Pierre-Yves and the PSWC organisation team.

Pat Chewning
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2005 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS in Paris?

Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:56 pm

YES: The World Championships should move around the world from year to year.

QUESTION: Is May too early in the season for a World Championship?

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Re: 2005 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS in Paris?

Post by Rick Stanziale » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:44 pm

Pat Chewning wrote: QUESTION: Is May too early in the season for a World Championship?
Yes.

Move it around.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:23 pm

One thing should be the World Championchips and the other is the World Cup Series (World Ranking) like in Ski.

At the World Championchips you should have the best 80 or 100 riders during the season. If the World Championchips are in the beginning of the season, you can take the World ranking list from last year.

If all people can compete at a world championchips, and more then 20 people can't do the cours, that makes no sense. And it isn't very good for the further development for the slalom sport.

/Jadranko

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Post by Dave Gale » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:58 pm

Check the short thread in the Slalom forum on NCDSA
ENJOY!! (while you can)

Pierre-Yves Ritschard
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Re: 2005 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS in Paris?

Post by Pierre-Yves Ritschard » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:21 pm

Rick Stanziale wrote:
Pat Chewning wrote: QUESTION: Is May too early in the season for a World Championship?
Yes.

Move it around.
Unfortunately we can't do that, booking a date with the city of paris is really tough and we're bound on may 14, 15 and 16 2005.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:57 pm

A championship does NOT have to conclude a season. A "Championship" can infer the culminating victory after a series of playoffs (NFL, World Cup Soccer, baseball, etc.) It can also, though, be an event held at any time that is promoted as a gathering of world-class competitors who are driven to determine a champion based on the caliber of competition. This can be at the start of a season, the middle or the end. Don't forget: the first contemporary "world championship" in 2001 were held in May. I don't think anyone doubts the veracity of Gary Cross's claim to championship status.

What's more, there is an advantage to holding a world championships in mid-season: it allows the winner to "tour" as the champion which is a good draw for later races AND it provides opportunities for other skaters to go up against the best without having to wait a year over the winter.

In the two years of the FCR series we grew accustomed to the World's at Morro Bay being the climax of the season. It worked well and everyone acknowledged the caliber of competition justified the races as being world-class competition. There is no reason, though, why Pierre cannot promote a world-class race in a world-class venue with world class competition and call it a "world championships" no matter what time of year.

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Post by Nathaniel Felsen » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:46 pm

hello,

I'm also involved in the organisation of the Paris Slalom World Cup and I'd like to react to this question of date. The first to arise this pb was Corki and I thought about it.
It's true that in skate as in any other sport, we are used to see a World champion cup at the end of the season, but I don't think that to decide to choose the month of May could be bad for the sport. Actually knowing very early in the year who is the world champion allows, on one hand, the champion to take advantage of his title for any other races to come, and on the other hand, it gives all the other riders a challenge : being able to say "I've beaten "X" the world champion of the year".
The speaker can speak of him, and praises him every time he appears, and from a mass media point of view having the World champion of the year's interview can give the journalists a fresh ground to break and the television viewers and the readers as well will be more interested in the new champion than in the one of last year.

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Post by Jack Quarantillo » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:01 pm

Nathaniel Felsen wrote:Actually knowing very early in the year who is the world champion allows, on one hand, the champion to take advantage of his title for any other races to come
True, but it would also remove that opportunity from the most recently crowned 2004 champion. (Unless he wins again.)

Q

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:56 pm

The first race in Europe will be the World Championships.

You announce this 4 months before the event.

No one knows which status the other races have ?
Who is allowed to compete at the World Championships ?
Where is the information about the World Championships ?

How decide about the statuses for all the races ?

I don't know how it works with the sponsors in France, here in Switzerland you have to ask the companies latest in October one year before the competition for sponsoring. They make there marketing budgets in october 2004 for the whole year 2005.

What we need is an organisation between the organizers of the races. They shold decide about the statuses of the races. We need to appoint the criteria for the organizers.
And a very important thing is to determine the races at least one year before. (that means to determine the dates and statuses for the 2006 season in the end of 2004)

In my opinion a great World Championships will be, where I as a rider needn't to pay 100 Euro entry fee. where I needn't to search for accomodation. where I have service with my travel. and so on...

It's up to the organizers to do somthing for the sport. Search for the sponsors. Asked some hotel's for a lower special price. Make arrangements with flight carriers. and so on...

I know it's a hard work, but without this work we wouldn't come ahead.

Why we have never announced our competition in Grueningen who started in 2000 as the European Championships ?

Because nothing is organised.

What should I say to the sponsors ? That's the European Championships because I have announced this.

Paris is a nice spot and i love to compete there! And there should be one time the World Championships, with the best riders from the World, but that wat we see now can't be the way for a World Championships.

I will try to work somthing out, how it can work in my eyes and send this to the other organisators and the ISSA members.

/Jadranko

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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:12 am

Keep it the way it is this year and plan early for next year. People east of EU won't be able to start practicing till mid May.


Paris World Cup is a very Special Cup.

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Post by Claude Regnier » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:29 am

First off almost everyone will agree that the World Championships should move from country to country.

As Vlad stated May is simply too early for most people. The past rankings should not be used for invitations as they really only reflect the number of competitions someone entered. As we all know they do not necessarily reflect ones skill level.

A World Cup series is really what is needed within the next couple of years. The FCR series was good for California. The America's Cup was a great follow up for more of a National format. The increasin amount of European races over the last several years are also part of where we stand now.

The next level is due.

I'm hoping to make it to France this year regardless of what the event is called. Good Luck with everything. I do think May is too early for most people. Either way you look at it no matter where an event is held or what it is called, World Cup, World Championship the same people will likely travel for it and the others will just sit and complain.
Many Happy Pumps!

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Post by Jack Smith » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:27 am

Rumour has it that Morro Bay Blvd. ( this is the street that intersects Main Street just past the TS finish line ) is going to be repaved in spring 2005. Steeper than Main, as long as Pacific Street.

Standing in the gates with a great view of the Pacific Ocean. There will also be other venues during "Slalom Week 2005".

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Re: Paris

Post by Rick Stanziale » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:32 pm

Claude Regnier wrote:The past rankings should not be used for invitations as they really only reflect the number of competitions someone entered. As we all know they do not necessarily reflect ones skill level.
According to the World Skateboard Slalom Ranking:

Of the 32 top pro racers, the fewest number of races attended goes to 32. Bill Wahl with 7 races

Nine of the top sixteen pro racers attended a full slate of 16 races.

Only 10. Jani (14) and 8. Olson (15) cracked the top ten without a full slate.

Someone who could have benefited from attending a few more races - 21. Tay Hunt with 9 races.

You can evaluate the amateurs on your own, but you'll see the same result - you've got to go to races to place high in the rankings. Period. End of Sentence. Your mileage may vary. And I never meant move the Paris dates, I meant move the Worlds yearly.

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:51 pm

On the NCDSA forum they find that Paris (and some other locations in Europe) are too short for a Worlds.

As Mike Maysey wrote "RACING...not dropping off and ramp and winning or losing right there."

What do you think about length and width of a competition place?

rmn

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:33 pm

Rick wrote:Only 10:th place Jani (14) and 8:th place Olson (15) cracked the top ten without a full slate.


You forgot that Maurus (2:nd place) and Luca (3:rd place) also does not have a full slate. ;-) Which proves attendence is not all for placing high. But it is a big part. I mean how could it not be. Not even in the world championships itself you can avoid it. So you are a world champ? Who attended? I think personally that the world rank is more correct than anything else even with the flaws that we all have to live with whatever listing we produce. May it be World Ranking or World Championships. At least in a world ranking all worlds top slalom racers are all present even if attendance is not maximized. In a World Championship the attendence factor is as cruel as it can be. You're either in or you're out.

Ramon wrote:On the NCDSA forum they find that Paris (and some other locations in Europe) are too short for a Worlds.
What is short and what is long? Some may think that Paris is too short and others may think that Morro Bay is too long. Some seem to think that a longer course is a better course. Why? A good course can be both long and short. The same goes for bad courses.
For me in the end there should be no other rules for a World Champ course than any other course we see on the big competitions we attend. I think even short courses have an advantage for the audience to get a better overview of the whole race.

The World Champ course is the course the world champ organizer set, short or long, bad or good, technical or easy, steep or flat, tight or loose. You name it.

I.e. Paris (Trocadero) is not too short to set a World Champ course.
Mike Maysey wrote:RACING...not dropping off a ramp and winning or losing right there
I guess he is meaning the reaction time or timing of the start. Dropping off a ramp is a skill to master too that is important in slalom that is different from reaction time. Doing both good is a very difficult skill. Normally if you go for a good strong push in the start ramp you are likley to loose on timing and reaction. If you go for a very quick reaction and timing you likley loose on the force pumping off the start ramp. I agree that the shorter the course the more a good start plays in. But why shouldn't it. It's a part of the game too. It's a question of balance between that and the rest of the skills we want to see. Good pumping in the course, good technical skills, fitness, smartness and you name it. Where is this balance? No one can tell. In the old ISSA rules courses should be between 30 and 60 cones. Going towards 30 cones will give advantage to some skills. Going towards 60 will give advantage to others. Going outside of any of these must have been seen as giving an unbalance in the skills slalom was aiming for. It looks more like the current Worlds are more out of bounds than a possible Paris in this sense. Slalom was never aimed to be a Marathon. Even so we still created the 100-cones race for this purpose. The rest was supposed to be shorter and more intense.

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:02 pm

I agree with you Corky.
I wrote:"You can't say a Worlds is only a Worlds if there are more than x cones. In my opinon it's not the course who makes the champion, it's to compare with the other racers on the same course with the same conditions. Racing conditions should be different..."

rmn

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Post by Mike Maysey » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:36 pm

I wasn't talking about reaction times...far from it. What I was talking about on the other site was the fact that in a short race ie) approx 9 second race, it'll most likely be decided in the start. If I drop down the ramp in the final and my competitor has a jump on me, it'll be virtually impossible to reel him in. My only hope would be that I could force a mistake on his part. Whereas if the course is long ie) 30 seconds plus like the Worlds have been on the second day for two years now, there's room. Room to reel him in, be reeled in and RACE. I want to RACE, I want nothing to do with a ramp contest or I would have concentrated on that aspect of skating instead of slalom. After all, we do RACE slalom don't we? As far as I'm concerned, the best on the course shouldn't be the fastest down the ramps but the fastest through the cones. I'm not saying the start isn't important, I'm just saying the length of the course should be such that there can actually be some racing (lead changes) taking place on the part of the racers. Not to mention, the course should have sections where you'll (the rider) have to speed up, slow down, coast, adjust...in a 9 second course there won't be much if any of that. Short races are fine, just not World class races.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:37 am

I see your point Mike but I don't agree that racing is only what you describe. Racing you do in both cases. Short or long course. Just look at dragracing. Isn't that racing? It seems like you want to erase the chance of someone a tiny little bit slower than yourself to be able to beat you with a good start. But if you are that close why couldn't the start be the deciding point of who wins. And don't forget that it will give you a chance too if you are up against someone who is a tiny little bit faster than yourself. For me that is racing.

Both are racing and no one is better than the other. Just two ways of looking at it. Saying that one way is not world class racing is not correct I think. Both could very well be and should be world class races now and then. As long as it is within limits of how we want to see slalom racing. I.e. not too short but than again also not too long.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:07 am

Here's an idea:

Maybe Paris could be the first slalom race in history where the finish line is next to the start ramp? First one DOWN the course, turn around and get back UP the course wins?

Ok, it's not a good idea. But, it is an idea.

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Post by Nick Krest » Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:32 am

Paris is a big city. There are hills there. I don't understand why you are limiting yourself to the Trocadero only. I've seen some great slalom hills in the 20th arrondissement, for example.

If Paris were to host the Worlds, I would propose:
  • it take place in September - pleasant weather, low hotel rates, low airfares, no tourists;
    it be a three-day event;
    day one would be a Super-G or GS, perhaps located in the 20th, .6km-.8km in length;
    day two would be a standard slalom or GS, again on a hill, .3-.4km in length;
    day three would be a TS, located on the Trocadero;
    an optional cyber slalom event could take place on the evening of day two.

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Post by Rich Stephens » Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:53 am

Hans, one thing to consider regarding short courses that place more emphasis on starting ability is that throughout the year races are held with a variety of starting proceedures. So while the skating around cones part can be practiced by everyone everywhere at every race (or even practice), there may be racers who have limited chance to use the exact type of starting ramp and start signal system that would be used at the Championships, while others might use that system many times over the course of the year and have an advantage. For this reason, wouldn't it be more fair for the start to be as minor a part in the outcome of the race as practical? (besides, this is skateboarding. the skating should be the highlight, not the other skills like reaction time, which correspond to, like you say, dragracing).

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:11 pm

Rich, I agree that it is not fair having a World Championship where some racers have too big an advantage with the start procedure/start ramps. In a perfect and well oiled world sport on a high level all competitions should have simulair start procedures and start ramps. We are not there yet. This is for example a disadvantage for Europeans coming to the Worlds in Morro Bay for example. And same the other way around. That is one reason why alternating World Championships around (as I saw someone propose on the ncdsa forum) is a good idea so that not the same people get the same advantages all the time. Whether it's travel, time, money, skatespot and/or timezone. Maybe time, money and timezone are the bigger problems for getting a fair competition on World Champ level than the other more slalom related things even.

However it will never be 100% fair anyway. And luckily good and/or experienced skaters do adapt quickly. If you really want to take away the start ramp reaction/timing time (which only exist when running parallel head to head format) you can always run the two lanes with separate start and finish triggers. But then some will quickly react: "But that is not racing!". I say: "Well, funny that is the direction you want to take it then". Racing for me has a part of luck and chance variable in it. Knowing that your start do count makes a hell of a difference getting the race feeling.

And Nick, I think the Parisians are choosing Trocadero because they like the place and that they think it works fine for the disciplines they have in mind. I.e. no Super-G and a shortish GS (Pro 16-18 sec, Am 17-21 sec). And not to mention the surrounding that does play a bigger role than you might think. The Paris competition is the only competition I have entered so far where you really get that feeling of entering a big serious competition with big crowds almost all day long. Sure they are there to have a look at the Eiffel tower you tell your mind, but your body won't listen. Not the same feeling as the other more social competitions. The surrounding is the thing and not the easiest to manage. And having a wonderful surface and a nice hill that the community let you use for a big competition is a very strong combination. Even if you wish you could have had an extra 50 meters that does not change a lot in this case I believe.

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Post by Mike Maysey » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:37 pm

Hans, I think you missed my point...I think short races are fine, just not World class races. If you re-read my post I think you might have a better idea of where I'm coming from and what the point is I'm trying to make.

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Post by Nick Krest » Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:28 pm

One wouldn't have an F1 race in a parking lot (car park), correct? A kart race, perhaps, but not an F1 race.

So it is by limiting the venue choice to the Trocadero.

I'm not implying that the Trocadero site is not spectacular - it is. But it is size-limited.

Having the TS race and the awards ceremony at the Trocadero on a Sunday would be no less spectacular than the races that have been held there the last two years. It should be more spectacular, owing to the larger field that will show up from all over the world to race.

The World Championships should be about the racing, not the location.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:58 pm

Mike, what point did I miss?
You wrote:I think short races are fine, just not World class races.
I wrote:Saying that one way is not world class racing is not correct I think.
Nick, so maybe slalom is karting then.

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Post by Mike Maysey » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:55 pm

I'm over this conversation...see you at the Worlds...in the starting gates.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:49 am

Slalom Week 2005 - Schedule

Wednesday, September 14th, 10:am - Super G (World Championship)

Saturday, September 17th, 10:am - Am. Slalom Finals (Men, Women, Jrs.) WC
Saturday, September 17th, 2:pm - Pro Slalom Finals (Men) - WC

Sunday, September 18th, 10:am - Am. Tight Slalom Finals(Men,Women,Jrs.) WC
Sunday, September 18th, 2:pm - Pro Tight Slalom Qualifying (Men) WC
What's this ??

Are the World's again in Morro Bay ??

If not, please take the (World Championship) away.

Jadranko

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:08 am

Yes, the Worlds will be in Morro Bay again. The organizers of the Paris competition tried to show that they were interested in taking it on but not enough support from racers made them re-think. Now it's too late. Maybe next year the slalom community is ready.

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Dates

Post by Jack Smith » Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:45 am

Hello Everyone,

There are numerous events in September. I cannot hold the race the first week of October due to a conflicting festival. I don't want to move it much later into October due to shorter daylight hours and also the coming rainy season.

If you looked at the schedule of events you will notice that the "real" events do not begin until Thursday. Well, I guess I should say Wednesday, the day of the Super G.

Let me look into the second week in October, that would be the 3rd through the 9th.

I'm sure something can be worked out.

All the best,
Jack

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