Pro and Open or A-Pro/B-Pro?

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Martin Drayton
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Pro and Open or A-Pro/B-Pro?

Post by Martin Drayton » Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:21 pm

Pro and Open or A-Pro/B-Pro?
What do you guys think?
Which is better?
Which is fairer?

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No opinion?

Post by Martin Drayton » Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:56 pm

Surprised no-one has anything to say....There are a few people starting to voice their opinions about it on NCDSA.
Hmmm...

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Post by Andy Bittner » Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:38 pm

Here's a very unpopular opinion...

PRO and AM!

In most sports where there is an Open Class or Open events, the term "Open" refers to a sort of super-class or super-event, where everyone, Pro or Am, competes together.

Why slalom skateboarding is SO committed to badly misusing the term "Open" is beyond me.

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Post by Paul Keleher » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:05 pm

Andy,

I'm iclinied to agree, OPEN events tend to be, "you pays your money and takes your chances with the big boys"

Look at Golf....US OPEN......Open for all to Enter ( although it probably isn't).

Pro and Am is the correct Terminology for Slalom Racing...but where do you make the transition.

Personally i think PRO should be defined as "somebody who has the support of a manufacturer either Monetary or Product"

An Amateur is someone who is completely self funded, no sponsorship, not zip diddly.


One other thing, previously we have had the "Pro World Champ" and the "Open ( Am!!) World Champ" are we now going to have the A group champ and the B group champ. how does that look to Potential Sponsors.

Skater ......"hey I'm the B group World Champion"
Potential Sponsor........"Hey thats Great! what does B group mean?"
Skater......." well it means that out of 48 people i had a qualifying position of between 25th and 48th"
Potential Sopnsor.......Hmmmm, who won the A group? and can i get him on the phone!!".

Call me a cynic ( YOU'RE A CYNIC!!)

buts thats what'll happen, the OLD system had a tad more Credibity to it, as people could detect a tangiable difference between PRO and OPEN(AM)

just my 1.3p's worth

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Pro - Am

Post by Jack Smith » Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:58 pm

Paul, I agree that this is a tough call. What is a Pro slalom racer? Someone who calls himself that? Someone who accepts money in the form of cash prizes or monthly/yearly salary?

Just because a racer receives product from a manu doesn't make him a pro. Josh Byrd and Dylan Gordon both receive free gear, yet they would have no chance in a "pro" class.

Another problem I run into as organizer is that if I call my event a "Pro" race the ine insurance premium goes from $500 to $5,000.

Open discussion of this situation is very valuable, let's keep batting it around and see what we come up with.

Jack

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Post by Paul Keleher » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:48 am

Jack,

You make a good point, particularly regarding Dylan and Josh, perhaps in the future there will be a pro/am grouping in all categories.

Obviously with the classification making that much difference on the insurance, i can see why you have gone the A/B route.

Perhaps the way around it would for people to Clasify themselves as A or B group the same way as before instead of using the qualifying time method to separate the group.

I appreciate that by making the 2 groups be it Pro/Am or A/B you are giving more people the oportunity to compete. But as you have said previously....this is the Worlds!! why not just qualify everybody, then the top 64 fight it out, Head to Head.
I guess some people would not agree with this as it means the Top racers will have to race 12 times and some people will be finished after the first round. But at the end of the Day the World champ, should be the Strongest, fittest, fastest, racer on the day....contentious Yes, but the purpose is to create debate!!

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Post by Carsten Pingel » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:05 pm

What about this ?

In BMX freestyle contests they have

Amateurs

Masters - sponsored AM's

Professionals

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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:33 pm

absolutely right carsten,you guys just have too look around a bit and see how other skateboard contests are handled.
sponsored/unsponsored
pro/am

whatever,it will be tough for a few guys if they have to compete in pro-classes.
but....

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a nobody racer with an opinion

Post by Matthew Wilson » Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:46 pm

In the whole PRO/ AM racer debate, I stand firm in my belief that Slalom should be treated in the same way that tennis is handled. Events are worth points and once a rider accumulates enough points from attending/winning AM races, then they can become a PRO if they choose. The AM circuit--if you will--should be fun but with no monatary winnings...EVER. Winnings for AM races should be restricted to equipment that does not exceed certain cash value (this prevents those who are just too good for AM from ever benefiting significantly from staying there).

When I hear OPEN race, I take that to mean that both PRO and AM riders can enter and compete on equal ground. It is a time when general AM racers can get some high level competition experience, when the trully good AM racers can test their skills against the PROS, and where PROS can show the AM crowd what it really means to be good (or where their egos can be diminished when that 15 year old kid kicks their 40 year old butt, hehe).

As far as qualifications go, I see it like this:

PRO: any racer who has earned xxx combined points from attending qualified events, and xxx number of those points have been acheived as a result of placing within the top xx number of racers at any qualified event.

AM: any racer who enters any qualified event and has not determined themselves to be PRO after acheiving the basic minimum requirements for PRO class.

OPEN: any qualified race where PRO and AM class racers may enter on equal ground, and where the compensation for winning is restricted to product.

I find it impossible to trully integrate a class system into slalom--or any sport--when the races available and general race structure does not support the class system. If the slalom community is made up of OPEN class races across the board, then the PRO/AM classes should be eliminated. Otherwise, what's the point?

But if races can ensure that there are specific "tracks", PRO or AM, that can be entered and both offer different winnings and degrees of competition, then the class designations makes sense.

I feel that there are very reliable systems that already exist in other sports, i.e. tennis, that can be molded to suit slalom's needs. We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. However, in the end, the debate of AM, PRO, Open, etc is useless unless there is a movement to ensure that the structure of races can support such classifications.
slalom is good

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:46 pm

The more I read this thread and think about the issues related to skateboard racing, I realize the problem isn't necessarily FORMAT but TIME. Our experience over the past couple of years is that it gets dark too soon to do all the racing we'd like to do!

How many times have we heard, "we'll do a (insert your particular favorite here,) class qualifying if time permits." It's always about TIME. What makes the World's a little more successful that other events is everyone makes the time to be there FRIDAY for an extra day of racing.

After running a few drops at Ricky's Mississippi Luna Jam, I can see the future (I dropped out of the running during practice when I came up lame with a recurring foot injury.) Anyway, Ricky runs his race AT NIGHT and is pretty successful at it. Maybe this is the way more organizers need to go? An event could accomplish so much more if there were 15 or 16 hours available as opposed to just 8 or 9 nine at the height of the summer months. This will cost more money and take more organization and cooperation, but it could also lead to more entry fees as more racers would participate knowing in advance they would race and race against their peers.

With this time frame, races could conceivably have Men's Pro A and B Quals, Am A and B Quals, Womens' Qual for all classes, Boys, Girls and Masters. Heck, it might even allow a "novice intro to Slalom" session during the lunch and dinner breaks. Organizers could also have all day for qualifying for the many classes and then determine how many brackets would be included in the night time eliminations. All the top 32 in each class? 16? Just the round of 8? Whatever would be the best audience draw and most inclusive for the racers.

Anyway, what I'm suggesting involves more money which might be the biggest hitch of all. I do have to conclude, though, that it would appear the underlying unspoken theme to this thread is not, "what works best?" but, "what can we get done while it's daylight?" Maybe the answer to get more daylight?

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Post by Rick Stanziale » Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:24 pm

Tucker you may just be on to something. I chose a nighttime race in the hopes of attracting more spectators, but we could set a hybrid at my outlaw venue during the day saturday for the purpose of qualifying A, B and C class brackets of 8 - everyone would still be welcome to come out and run the course on Saturday night during practice, but rather than spend most of our time in the spotlight qualifying, we can run all the brackets at a pace that can be handled by a grass roots skeleton crew.

On topic - I've had mixed emotions on A-pro/B-pro. Making the A-pro cut has been much more satisfying than moving up through the B-pro (maybe if I had podium'ed as a B-pro I would feel differently).

Our one glaring need is a uniform set of rules. Some guy standing up on Saturday morning and proclaiming, ".2 cone penalty" (met with a chorus of whines and then "okay, .3 cone penalty") just doesn't cut it. Witnessing Aki frozen on the start ramp during Cbarks jumpstart certainly didn't make slalom look more professional.

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Post by Marcos Soulsby-Monroy » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:18 am

WAY back when ASPO was in force they had Sponsered and unsponsered amatures. I think that somthing like that would do well for slalom. I think that Pro's and sponcered amatures should be one group and the rest of us should be the unsponsered group. But I agree that there should be more uniforminty in event rules.

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Just a thought...

Post by Martin Drayton » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:25 pm

I just wondered if the fact that a lot less people have paid their entry fees for the Worlds than registered was due to the sudden change in classification? Are some people voting with their wallets?

Those who would normally race Pro seem, understandably, not that bothered but its those of us that make up the numbers and pay our money that are the ones who tend not to speak out, or as lower level riders have opinions that are just not considered that important! Yet we too are the lifeblood of the sport.

I guess its not going to change back at this stage, but it will be interesting to see if some of those who would normally enter Pro, and don't always lay down particularly blistering qualifying runs (Its not always the fastest qualifiers that win Pro/A Pro events), get their act together as the comp progresses beating all comers later in the day?
Although I wasn't there, it certainly looks like what happened at Colorado's TS event...
With only 24 slots for A, I wouldn't be surprised if this happens again. Wouldn't those same Pros rather be in the A group when their fast runs do kick in? As someone who at this stage considers themselves in the Am/old Open category, the $3000 or so that the whole Morro thing is going to cost me is money that I probably wouldn't have spent if I had known about the category change, but it happened AFTER I had paid for everything when it was still Pro/Open.

Shouldn't people have the right to self-classify?
As was pointed by Paul K, what does the title B-Pro WORLD CHAMP actually mean?
Wouldn't Open and Amateur titles make more sense?

I think our German contingent, Paul and especially Matthew all raise very salient points, and on the subject of insurance...Would it not be possible to keep the A/B classifications and subtitle them Open/Am, therefore bypassing the word Pro and let people self classify thereby choosing the playing field of their choice?

Just a thought...

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A - B ...to whine or not to whine

Post by Jack Smith » Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:32 am

Martin,

Send me a check for $5,000 to pay the insurance premium that is required for a Pro/Am race and I will gladly make the change.

Out of the 109 racers who have signed up on NCDSA almost 85 have paid. I have emails from others who are planning to pay before the deadline.

Martin, please be honest. Your trip to America is not only for the Worlds. I do not like the way you are making it sound that I changed the format as some sort of underhanded ploy. Why would I do that?

I have previously posted that the Pro/Open classification listing on NCDSA was a mistake on my part. I corrected it as soon as it was brought to my attention.

Do you really think that Pros (A) want to win the B class?


Shouldn't people have the right to self-classify?
What would stop a "PRO" from registering for the "Open"?

As was pointed by Paul K, what does the title B-Pro WORLD CHAMP actually mean?
It means you won the "B" division, you can call it Open or Am, whatever you need to make you happy.

Heck, if it will make you happy I will change it right now...A = Open, B=Am.

Please don't insult me with your comment "lower level riders have opinions that are just not considered that important! ".
You know damn well I listen to every rider, you also know the work I do to promote slalom on all levels.

Please let me know when to refund your entry fee. Maybe it's not to late to change or refund those plane tickets.

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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:45 am

No comment.
Last edited by Vlad Popov on Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Does it matter!

Post by Claude Regnier » Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:35 am

The Bottom Lines _______

Does it really matter?

The guys who finnish at or near the Top in either grouping should be considered Pro quality!

With all the money we are making in this part of the sport we could all just kick in the extra cash to pay for the extra incured costs!

Why don't we just forgoe the organisers that we seem to bitch and complain to all the time and run our own races?

Nothings perfect. Nobodys forcing anyone to attend. Some want to race. Last year I wanted to have fun. This year I'm going to have more fun. The smiles will be hidding some of the pain though. So when you see the pictures of me this I will besmilling and saying &%^* it hurts!

Enjoy, Good Luck!

We are all just Damm Lucky to be here and getting a chance to race against such a legendary field no matter what!

Amen.

By the way July 1 and 2 in Ottawa, Canada in 2005 is a go.
Many Happy Pumps!

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No refund required...

Post by Martin Drayton » Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:28 pm

Jack,

I have limitless respect for you and what you have done and there is NO suggestion of an "underhanded ploy". You are the Organiser and can change the format of the event as you see fit. I would like to think we are friends and will continue to be so. If my post came across as overly critical, that WAS NOT the idea, I apologise unreservedly.

My trip to America is not just for the races, I am also coming over for the winter season to work in Park City. They do not start my employment until the end of November. My point was that I cannot afford to go back to the UK in between and pay for another flight, however in doing so it means that I cannot work and earn money between arriving for Morro and then. My problem and no-one elses...Just an indication that I am committed as are you to our sport.

I did not realise that the Worlds being billed originally as Pro/Open was an error-If I had I wouldn't have even started this discussion!!! A mistake is a mistake.

I totally agree with you, and it was what I was trying to say but obviously didn't make it clear, I really DON'T think that Pros want to win the B class. It was my point exactly that they may inadvertantly have a bad couple of runs, register a time outside the 24 (hit too many cones, wrong wheel choice,skid etc)and through no fault of their own end up in the B class, then end up winning! No they wouldn't be happy with that, no-one wants to see someone pissed-off standing on the podium!

Nothing would stop a "Pro" from registering in the Open you are right, but I personally haven't seen it happen in the past and people would call "bullshit" if it did.

I was not trying to insult you with my lower level rider comment, it was a general comment about posting (mostly NCDSA which is why I prefer this site)and was aimed squarely at those who normally race Pro who choose to bludgeon people with their opinions.
When someone "not in the In-Crowd" posts an opinion there is no response from ANYONE, yet a well known "cool" Pro rider can say the same thing a few days later and there is a huge discussion about it. How many times have we seen quite reasonable posts by relative unknowns ridiculed by riders high up (and vocal) in the scene writing in to say "who the hell are you?", "What races have you been to?", or my personal favourite from one particular racer (with a 'little legal Knowledge') after the Arab/Chaput La Costa incident), "If you don't agree with me, don't post, meet me and we'll sort it out with fists"....Inspirational! This is not a 'Locals only' Sport, its not their beach, it belongs to all of us.

You yourself said "Open discussion of this situation is very valuable, let's keep batting it around and see what we come up with." Thats all I'm trying to do...

Looking forward to racing at Morro, and hoping to race YOU again like we did back in 2001!

Say Hi to Maurine,

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Post by Rick Stanziale » Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:03 pm

I think it could be helpful to look at the registered racers before deciding on the exact cutoff for A/B (C and beyond someday).

And as far as A Class skaters appearing in B Class brackets...........each individual could declare as an A Class or B Class before qualifying. If you declare as an A Class you would be limited to the top x number of slots in the bracket, with no chance for ending up in the B brackets. However B Class racers would have the option to race A or B, depenedent upon their qualifying times. I know, it's getting too complicated, but at the very least we could have people declare as an A before qualifying.

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Post by Christopher Bara » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:27 pm

66 is on the right path there with where he's going. And Drayton hit the nail on the head. The guys up here in Detroit have the funds to travel to "national" races, but we've decided not to. I've tried to state the reasons why, but it falls on many deaf ears. Bottom line is, we CHOSE not to do Morro, Breck, LaCosta...great races?...maybe, but who cares. The qualifying and bracketing is, in out opinion, flawed. The reasons why it's flawed have been stated over and over again, no need to repeat them here.
So do the "other skaters" vote with their wallets?.hell yes we do!... We'd rather continue supporting regional events without all the politics and posturing.
Two events i'm sorry we missed were the Athens and Colorado Cup gigs. I noticed everybody had a blast at these two and there were virtually NO complaints. Other sites should take note of that. We'll try to make both those next year.
Also, i have a question, why not just call it A and B for insurance purposes, but post results for what we know they are,Pro and Am?...or better yet, call it Open and Am?....hell, it's just insurance wording.
The real issue is that pro's should qualify and race with pros. Having the option to "bump down" to amatuer status due to a bad qualifier is bs. I think that will also raise the level of competition in the pro ranks as well.
'nuff said
see y'all in Fayetteville.

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More A/B stuff

Post by Jack Smith » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:25 pm

Chris...Please don't give me the "deaf ears" crap.

Morro, Breck and La Costa, great races...yes - not maybe.

There are no pro slalom racers. There are racers who take cash prizes. There are racers who are faster than others. There are no pro slalom racers.

I think it's great that you support regional races, so do I, local races and clinics/practice sessions also.

Hey Chris, guess what? The Colorado Cup was A/B, and yes we had a blast. After my first Q run I found myself in the B group, not wanting to be accused of "sandbagging" I laid down a run that moved me into the A's.

You can committ insurance fraud if you wish, I won't.

Did you not read my post above...we'll call it Open and Am.

Here's a little story...It's the summer of 1978, myself and Dave Lester along with a 13 year old Fluitt drive to Colorado for the season opening ARA race at Mom's Hill. Dave and I self classify as Pros, thinking we're pretty damn fast. Fluitt enters the Am class.

Dave and I get our asses handed to us, we can't even smell the finals. So guess what we do, we go back to MB and practice our asses off. Later in the season I was able to qualify for some 16 man finals. Yes, that's right 16 man, think about that. I can't even imagine the uproar that would cause now. I came very close to making Morro a 16 man final this year.
The 2001 Worlds were a 16 man final.

National and World events will always be more comptetive. Until there is a national ranking system similar to the UCSF the Pro/Am deal just doesn't work.

Oh, by the way, Fluitt made the "Am" cut both days at the ARA event.

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Post by Christopher Bara » Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:04 am

Fine Jack, let's cut to the chase.
No pro skaters?....based on what, income?...that is not and never has been what determines a skater to be pro, it's a level of talent that makes them pro or am. I've seen it based on having a sponsor, winning cash on a podium and being in product development, but when you drop in the chips, there are racers at a pro level and racers at an amatuer level.

As for the deaf ears comment, look around...you may be one of the few who posts responses to damn near everybody, and to that i give you credit, but a large number of skaters treat it as a private club with allot of background noise. It's an establishment.

I've been in insurance for 17 years.....in claims and fraud believe it or not, and am not suggesting fraud, just suggesting that if you call a bracket one thing for X amount of dollars, and call it another thing for Y amount of dollars, and the only thing seperating pro and am is the skill level, then there are options.....perhaps...

And yes, i read your post......thoroughly.....and i like the idea of Open and Am, if need be....i simply stated i think the two should be seperated from qualifying rounds, right to the finish...at the time, it looks like qualifying is what determines A and B (of whatever its called)...It should be bracketed from the get-go
Just something to consider for the future,that's all.

As for practicing...Jack...we ride Every Sunday out here....and in the winter, that means running in the snow, in temperatures to 10 below windchill...i doubt you'll find many others doing that every week...
practice is irrelevant to the fact that skaters who have been at it for years, are far more skilled, faster and more knowledgable will be racing along in the amatuer bracket because they jacked up a qualifier...
Pro's race with pro's...amatuers with amatuers.
From the qualifier to the podium
I think you, and others who organize these races do a great job, no doubt.
But i also think that allowing A racers to back into the B slots can turn it into a dog and pony show.
Open and Am, A and B, Pro and Am...whichever you prefer.
But from qualifier to podium

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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:59 am

deleted - pointless
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I'm so sick of this...

Post by Jack Smith » Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:50 am

Talent?

Let's see...I won JPL one time ( a small field), took the cash. Am I pro?
I won some local races back in the 70's...took the cash. Am I pro?

I couldn't even qualify for the "B" class at Breck. Am I Amatuer? Or maybe something less?

If I were to race at Morro and had the option to choose, there's no way I would race Pro, if there was a pro class.

Who determines who is pro and who is am?

Because you are sponsored? Nope.

Being in product develpment? Nope.

There are quite a few "Ams" as you call them that will beat so-called pros everytime.

Private club? Don't think so. Have you been to any of the bigger races? I think once you do show you will see a different picture.

Establishment..what is this the 60's?

I would love to be able to seperate the "pros" and "ams". It would make my life so much simpler, just tell me how to do it.

At the 2002 Worlds we had Ams turning Pro after they failed to qualify in the Am class. They did this because there were far less riders in the Pro class.

Chris, I fully respect what you guys do in Detroit, compared to you guys we are sissies out here. Thankfully we don't have such harsh weather. I commend you for hardiness. You guys remind me of stories I have read about kids in Indiana shooting baskets in the middle of winter on outdoor courts...wearing ski gloves or mittens.

One thing I think we are missing here is that when you get to the National and World level comps there is very little difference between the A's (Pro) and "B's" (Open).

This is going to sound harsh...it's called a contest for a reason. To prove who's best.

Maybe, if I do another large scale event you can give me some advice on how to obtain insurance for a pro event. If you'll notice, you do not find any reference to Pro on any of our promo material.

I hope that I have not offended you or others with this post.

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Post by Christopher Bara » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:28 am

Joe and Jack....check your Email guys

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Post by Andy Bittner » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:55 am

Christopher Bara wrote:Fine Jack, let's cut to the chase.
No pro skaters?....based on what, income?...that is not and never has been what determines a skater to be pro, it's a level of talent that makes them pro or am.
Yet another case of skateboarders "reinventing the wheel", because we're skaters and we're different. Almost every sport that I know of, in which there are athletes or competitors who are labelled "professional", give that label based on monetary remuneration or product sponsorship equivalent to a certain monetary value. The vast majority of the whole sporting world understands and uses some version of this otherwise simple criteria.

In fact, money/income=professionalism has even been the case throughout most of organized skateboarding's competitive history. The money may not have been all that much, and it might have even been silly to truly be considering certain athletes making such little money as "professional". This is why Jack is saying that are really NO professionals in slalom. Nonetheless, during the 80s in the NSA (Natl. Skateboard Assn.) contest series, or to qualify as an amateur for CASL (CA Amateur Skateboard League), and probably in any number of other skateboard competitive series or competitions, the monetary issue WAS the defining criteria. So, where you get that income has "never" been the criteria for professionalism in competitive skateboarding is beyond me.

Ever wonder why the sporting world has taken so long to accept skateboarding as a sport? I think one of the reasons is that we skateboard-types tend to do things how we want to do things, and then expect the whole rest of the world to accept that this is just how we are. After all, we're skaters. It doesn't matter if we're doing things completely bass-ackwards, or insisting that the sun rises in the evening and sets in the morning. We're skaters. If the rest of the world can't accept that, for us, the sun rises in the evening and sets in the morning, then screw them. They're just closed-minded fools, and we continue to be misunderstood.

I don't really care any more whether competitive classes are called, A and B, and I almost don't care about the mis-application of the term "open" anymore. Let's call the really good racers the "really good" class and the less good racers the "not-so-good class". Let's call them "expert" and "novice", or the "epic" and "boring" classes. However, of all the choices, I think it is advisable to avoid using a word that is generally understood to mean something different than what we mean.

While we're on all of this, I think I'll start using the word "bomb" to mean the strapped, duffel bag I use to carry my skateboards on to airplanes. I've heard people tell me that bag is "the bomb", so that's why I'll use the word "bomb". Others will just have to understand. It makes sense to me, but I'm a skater.

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Post by Christopher Bara » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:07 am

oye vay
I was hoping to move on, but Andy, with that last post...since you went thru the trouble to quote me, let me just say this.
My skatebro's Scott and Greg won some cash at the last chi-town event.
Not much, more or less a gentlemens wager, but cash is cash by your theory.
So using your reasoning, i'll be sure to get them to sign my T-shirt since they're now "pros"
The line for pro-amatuer will forever be obscured due to events like the olympics...

but i'm tired and i'm going to sleep now.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:57 am

Chris,

Your associates Scot and Greg ARE NOT pros. So no need to splurge on fashion accessories.

There is a difference between competing for advertised purses, receiving compensation from sponsors and competing for wagers. The only people who are pros in betting work in Las Vegas and Derby Downs. So unless you advertised well in advance, "$1,000 in prize money guaranteed!" there is no professionalism. The same it true for any race where "the number of entry fees determines the prize money." Sorry. That don't make you a pro either. Maybe the pros win those races, but that's a matter of skill.

Rick Stanziale guaranteed a $500 first place prize for the Red Clay Cup. Whether he likes it or not, Vlad is now a pro and I hope 66 remembers to prepare for Vlad a 1099 for tax season. (Have you done that the last two years, Rick? Hmmm?)

This is getting off the subject a bit, but I don't want skaters around the country to stop turning down beer money because they are afraid they'll have to face Chicken in qualifying. Go ahead, have everyone throw $10 in the hat and the winner takes half, second gets a third and third gets what's left. There will be no Tribunal Of Professional Standing convened for such an event.

By the way, just as an aside for no particular reason, read some of the history of the early NFL and especially the story of Jim Thorpe, the Olympics and minor league pro football. You think we go issues about professionalism? HAH! We're pikers compared to what those guys went through.

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Post by John Gilmour » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:15 am

Andy,

I'm not so sure that skateboarding isn't totally different than other sports- particularly slalom skateboarding- which is quasi "undersponsored".

Slalom racers ascribe a certain status to a rider for his past performances in varied fields of competition. For lack of more precisely descriptive terms we use the terms "PRO" and "AM".

I think racers should self classify initially. IF they find out from their results that they are not running with others close to their ability level in all fairness to ALL of the skaters competeing- they should reclassify. Or they are merely displacing another skater that should/could be there.

In elimination racing- it doesn't hurt a small pro Class for a few (say 3 in a bracket of 16) slower racers to self classify as pros to help fill a bracket (MB2002)- mostly because those racers wil be eliminated in an early round. However- likely it would be better racing to reduce the size of the Pro bracket in that case instead of adding some (Hate to use this term- as it has negative connotations that are not intended) "Filler" to fill the bracket (say if you had 23 racers in pro and wanted to add 9 non pros- which would make for 9 total blow out races). IMHO it is Better that racers should race with racers at least somewhat close to their ability level. In the last case you should cut to 16 racers.

One thought was perhaps skaters should have the option to self classify after the qualifications. Then a skater who thought he was going to clean up as the unknown dark horse, has the chance to drop into Am class if he didn't do as well as expected. Similarly- if a racer did extremely well in his first race ever- he wouldn't be denied the ability to try his hand against the pros.

YET-

Our current method seems to be working (yes I know it is not a rule) but where a skater tries to win an Amatuer race- or perhaps podium a few times in Am before turning Pro. I don't think that just because an AM wins a single race that he should be kicked out of AM class- but if he should continue to win 2 more races (perhaps a regional and then a National)- you can bet others will be encouraging him to move upstairs.

Who owns the rights to the term "Pro"? The skaters, collectively. A skater can register as anything he wants but other skaters will be the ones to determine whether or not the skater should be "thought" of as a Pro.


Am I a pro? Not really. I haven't gotten any huge sponsorships- I've won a bunch of regional races and traveled, and placed well in larger competitions- but I certainly am not a pro as compared to Ransom, Evans, Olson, Hester, Skoldberg, Hutson- the guys who are regularly recognized as slalom and Banked slalom Pros by the Magazines and hence their readership. (Hey- I finally got to use the word "hence"). A pro represents to a sponsor some figure who maybe well known- even to those outside of his sport. For instance many parents would recognize the name Tony Hawk- even though they may not have ever set foot on a skateboard. To a potential sponsor the "PRO" to invest sponsorship dollars into is one that is recognized, and preferably inside his field and hopefully OUTSIDE as well. Because there are truly NO SLALOM SKATEBOARD RACERS that are recognized outside of their field (no we aren't going to count Tony Alva in the Wide World of Sports footage) there are no slalom skateboarders that are looked upon as worthy to sponsor and thus- there are NONE (Read ZERO) PRO slalom skateboard racers from a Corporate sponsors perspective. I have no idea yet as to how to change this.

Furthermore- Here's a hypothetical -

Lets switch Golf for slalom skateboarding.

The Golfers obviously have a good talent pool but in this bizzare world they rarely meet their travel expenses. They don't make big bucks from the manufacturers either and last time the Golfers came to the John Gilmour Golf championships July 4th in Boston- it took them nearly 2 months to collect their winnings. Tiger Luca seems to be doing very well as is Vejay Mollica. Tiger, amongst the undersponsored Golfers has long been regarded as a Pro. In the last few years Vejay has been doing very well and now he is also regarded as a Pro who practiced up from the AM ranks. Despite the fact that neither Golfer has made a lot of money golfing, to the other undersponsored Golfers,...Both Tiger and Vejay are "Pros", because the feeling amongst the other golfers is that if the sport of golf wasn't so undersponsored- these would be the guys taking home the checks on a regular basis despite the level of talent in ANY golf competition. Relatively they are bestowed "Pro status" even though technically "those sleep under their car golfers" can't be bothered to waste their party funds on renting hotel rooms.

To many people looking at Golf- golf is a child's toy. A sport mostly done by young kids- that often give it up in their late teens- yet remarkably some older golfers continue to do well in middle age. So a sponsored golfer is like a kid being sponsored by Mattel. Golf's sister sport "Vert Billiards" is slightly different though due to its vast popularity and ability to be done in a relatively small space anywhere- and even though vert billiards is still regarded as a toy by many adults- despite a few high sponsorships received by some.

Many sports start off as not being taken seriously- with a few people traveling hustling to pay the bills- eating crummy food in crappy hotel rooms or couch surfing. Hockey wasn't always where it is today.
Last edited by John Gilmour on Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
One good turn deserves another
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Post by Jack Smith » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:16 am

JG - The NHL is on the verge of going bankrupt. LOL.

It's 11:21pm here in Morro and we just had a fairly moderate eathquake. Gave Maurine and I a scare.

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Post by Andy Bittner » Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:37 pm

John Gilmour wrote:I'm not so sure that skateboarding isn't totally different than other sports- particularly slalom skateboarding- which is quasi "undersponsored".
John, slalom skateboarding isn't quasi-undersponsored, it's completely undersponsored. Of course, in all due respect to the people who are doing their financial best to support, promote and grow the sport, the term "undersponsored" should not be confused with the term "unsponsored"

I also think you've pretty well made my primary point for me...
John Gilmour wrote:Slalom racers ascribe a certain status to a rider for his past performances in varied fields of competition. For lack of more precisely descriptive terms we use the terms "PRO" and "AM".
So, what you're saying is...
John Gilmour wrote:For lack of more precisely descriptive terms we use the terms "PRO" and "AM".
We're different because we say we are! I got a good idea... why not, for lack of more precise terms, and to avoid confusion with other words that already have a strongly considered meaning in the sporting world, call the really good skaters "bagels" and the less good skaters "doughnuts"? ...for lack of more precise terms?

I understand our sport is very small, and still way too small to really support any, true, professional class. My point is, and always has been, that while this remains the truth, and to make for a less complicated undoing of all of this when the sport does get big enough to truly support a professional field, let's stop stroking our egos by pretending it's big and misapplying the term "professional". It really does seem to me that the primary reason for this pressing desire to have or call ourselves professionals is purely ego driven. My question is, what's the big deal in calling oneself a "professional", if you have to redefine the term to make it true? I think I'm going to start calling the act of sleeping a full, eight hours a night, "brain surgery". That way I can honestly tell people that I am a very busy brain surgeon. If they misunderstand me, based on their own understanding of the term, "brain surgeon", that's not my fault.

People have thought I've been crazy for years, because I've always believed slalom skateboarding has all the makings of a good, medium-successful sport; successful enough to support a group of true professionals. Since the rebirth, four years ago, I see it more than I ever have, but I also see the typical skateboarder mindset, 'different for different's sake' and 'everything somewhat different from the way the rest of the world works', complicating our own future.

Chris Bara... Apply your example to any other sport and see whether it holds up. I wasn't saying that, if I won $5 bucks in a game of Hot Box with my friends when I was 9, I then can't play Little League Baseball when I'm 11, or college ball when I'm 18. You can't possibly believe that your example really suits the situation. Do you? Your argument was pretty weak and desperate, and my question is... what, about being a skateboarder, are you so deperately trying to hold on to?

Here's what real sports think... here are the amateur/professional guidelines for golf http://www.usga.org/playing/amateur_sta ... _rules.asp or tennis http://dps.altdc3.va.twimm.net/usta_mas ... 3_4200.pdf (pg. 123 of the pdf), but we skateboarders are choosing our descriptors for the "lack of more precise terms". If our sport is going to have a future, there is no crime in thinking about it and planning for it now.

By the way... for all of you ladder, seeding and competitive format people, that tennis PDF also seems to include some pretty deep and carefully explained seeding, draw and ladder systems.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:38 pm

Let's see the documents for golf and tennis as they where 100 years ago and it would be a more juste comparision with slalom skateboarding today.

We have discussed Pro and Am and what it stands for in another topic somewhere and the result of that was that we can very well call it Pro and Am and still comply with dictionnaries.

People don't care about the details behind what it takes to be a pro or am anyway but they understand that Pros are a better group than the Ams which is all we want to get out.

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Post by Andy Bittner » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:23 pm

Golf 100 years ago is a great comparison, Corky, and we're not even really on that level yet. My point was not to say that we are comparable with golf and tennis in the modern sporting world, but to make an example of the lengths to which "successful" sports must go to define the amateur/professional situation. If we ever want to take slalom skateboarding to anything close to being a marketably, "successful" sport, we're eventually going to have to define things this closely as well. If this is where we are going, why take actions that create detours and difficulties in the road ahead.

As for dictionaries... you're right again. Most English language dictionaries include a generalized, somewhat vague definition (usually late in the list of definitions for the word) of pro or professional as being a skill-based title, without making reference to any monetary situation. That is absolutely correct, which is exactly why I never claimed anything based on dictionaries. I base my argument on a general, widely accepted, somewhat standard mentality in the sporting world, as is or was so widely discussed in question of Olympic amateurism, or paying college athletes, or whether true professionals are just scabs trying to make money off of something all of the sports amateur enthusiasts do for the love of it. I've heard discussions like this about sports for all of my life here in the US. Maybe it was different where you grew up. Who cares, if a dictionary makes our mis-application of the term, technically, not a misuse? I don't. In my opinion, in a sporting situation, it is still a mis-application of the term "professional" to leave out the monetary definer.

Why do you say, "People don't care about the details behind what it takes to be a pro or am anyway..."? That, like Chris' statement about what has "never been the case" in skateboarding, is just plain untrue. We're having a discussion right now because people care. What people are you referring to? There have been countless cases throughout modern (20th century) sporting history, where some great athlete has chosen to remain an amateur throughout an otherwise world beating career. In some cases it was because the sport in question wouldn't really support a real, professional class, like some of the great Olympic sports. In another case, golf again, the greatest player in the game at his time and one of the greatest players ever in the history of the game, Bobby Jones, never competed for prize money, even when he was competing against the best professionals the game had to offer. There have been other cases where people have been challenged or excluded from major competition because they crossed a very carefully (but apparently not carefully enough) defined line between amateurism and professionalism. Did you grow up in a cave?

My point is that these words, "amateur" and "professional" DO have a general accepted definition within the world of sport. People who understand that there were questions about Duke Kahanamoku swimming in the Olympics in the 20's, because he'd been paid for swimming demosntrations in which he also happened to break world records, can usually understand the arguments made by another sport fan who feels that state-supported athletes like Vasily Alexyev (Soviet Olympic weighlifting great) or Teofilo(sp?) Stevenson (Cuban Olympic boxing great) weren't true amateurs, and as a skiing fan, I can relate from when one of my childhood heroes, Karl Schranz, was banned from the Olympics and World Cup competition for accepting some kind of paltry, otherwise inconsequential amount of endorsement money. It's why there was such hoopla when the Olympics finally allowed professionals to participate. Notice, when the Olympic people made the decision to allow professional participation, they didn't do so by saying... "Well, there all good, and since amateur and professional really don't matter to us anymore and 'professional' means 'good', we'll just call 'em all professionals because it sounds better."

Make no mistake about it, we CAN revinvent the wheel. The dictionary permits it. I'm just fairly certain our new wheel is not as good as the wheel that's already out there or if it'll ever be worth all the confusion our new wheel will create amongst all the rest of the traffic on the road.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:18 pm

I can't imagine that the definition of Pro and Am are the same in every big sport. Rules and definitions are up to each sport to set up unless we come to the point where slalom skateboarding is a subject for the Olympics. And when we are there our rules and definitions have changed from what we have now anyways. Let it have its way and it will be solved with time alongside the evolution of our sport. So far in slalom skateboarding Pro and Am has no other meaning than separating racers into two skillgroups. When times come around with big bucks and "real" professional careers at stake I have full confidence that it will get solved.

When I was talking about people I was referring to those not in the sport. I.e. audience, media, friends and family. For them Pro and Am is a good comprehensible destinction. We racers know the truth though. For now it is up to each and everyone to select what group he finds suitable. And it's up to himself to live up to it. So far there are some gray zones but no big problem for me.

The use of only OPEN competitions is a way around the Pro/Am problem. But I think there is a need also for Pro/Am competitions with two skill groups and different course layouts. Because that is the idea with Pro/Am for me. If you have the same course layout for everybody the OPEN format with 2 head to head groups depending on qualification results seems more logical to me. Like the one used in this years Morro Bay for example.

Normally Pros come more to their advantage with difficult courses. That is when you see the difference. Putting pros in Am courses will not show the full potential of the pros. And when you do OPEN competitions with a large pool of skaters courses tend to be laid out to suit everybody. I think Pros want to be more challenged by the course while Ams mostly just want to have fun and want fairly easy courses.

Also I think the use of head to head brackets for 32 of 64 racers is a waste of time. The idea with head to head is to have some thrilling, nerve breaking races between racers. That is not the case when you set number 1 against number 32 or even worse against 64. Even 1 against 16 is not much to get excited about. I think Jack is on the right way with his system towards some more interesting head to head races. I for myself have proposed formats that goes even futher in this directions. Let people qualify. Divide them all up in groups of 8. Let all groups run their own head to head eliminations. As many groups as you have time for. The advantage with this is also to free up people. When you race you do that in a more compressed time frame instead of just waiting and waiting. And when you don't race you can relax and start taking pictures and shooting some film while chearing on the others. You can then also run the top 8 elimination at a more presice time and at a more convienient time for media and audience. Not necessarily the last thing of the day when people start to get tired and have had enough and just want to get home. Better publish the finals for like four a'clock in the afternoon and run it then. When that is over you can continue with lower ranked head to head groups until the sun goes down. Often like it is now the pros always get penalized by any retardment in the planning. Let us instead aim for having the best races when there are the largest crowds.

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Post by Rick Stanziale » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:08 pm

Groups of 8 are extremely competitive. Groups of 16 may be viable at events with over 75 racers. Jack's plan of top 8 bye, bracket 9 - 24, may be even better (especially since it's announced in advance).

We don't have near the talent pool to field 1 vs. 32, let alone 64 (yet).

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Post by Jack Quarantillo » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:10 pm

I find this an interesting discussion. Here's my 2¢ from the (mostly) outside....

The big problem is that definitions of these terms depend entirely on context, because there is no accepted governing body, or reference for slalom skateboarding to point to.

So if a slalom skateboarder wants to call himself a pro, that's fine (in his context.)

There will be many "pros" (self appointed or otherwise) racing at MB, but the event does not use the word "pro" anywhere to keep the insurance costs down. Is calling things A/B instead of Pro/Open wrong? It cannot be, because there's no reference to point to. The context (at this point) exists entirely in the race organizer's rules/guidelines.

Should we be surprised that the rules and terms and definitions change from race to race? NO! After all, each race is run by a different organizer. Is this wrong? Not really, anyone who busts his ass, and puts forth the time and money to put together a race, certainly is allowed the perk of organizing the race the way he thinks will be best for his race and its entrants. Because there are no formal guidelines, organizers use past experience (their own, or others) as guidelines.

So until guidelines are written and accepted, no matter what an organizer calls a race, it is technically an open.

-sidebar discussion-
It seems that there is an additional underlying discussion that is a little less context-driven. That has to do with seeding of brackets. The current trend is to do away with all the self-declaration, and seed brackets based solely on qualifying times. This seems to be the best way to go in my opinion. FOR NOW. (There's probably some implications on the various attempts at overall ranking, but I don't pay much attention to those things, as they seem to be evolving as well...)


-future thoughts-
I think slalom skateboarding could draw some good ideas from the way the surfers run things. (I'm doing this from vague memory, but you'll get the idea...)

There's 44 guys qualified for WCT. You qualify by doing well on the tour, or by placing well enough in the regional events. For each event there's always "wild card" slots in the "Main Event" bracketing. If you win the qualifiers you get in the main event. I'm not sure how they seed the main event bracketing, it may even be random for each event. I also don't recall how they managed the ranking for the first year, when there was no last year's WCT.

until everything is defined (and universally accepted) these discussions will continue...

Q

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Post by Andy Bittner » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:07 pm

Corky, No matter how simply I explain, it'll be easy for you to misunderstand as long as you keep changing what I said to mean something different than what I said.

I never said that the "definition" of professional and amateur are the same from sport to sport, and I certainly never meant that the specifics of such a definition would be the same from sport to sport. That would be exactly why I said,
Andy Bittner wrote:I base my argument on a general, widely accepted, somewhat standard mentality in the sporting world
It's funny how I knew what your stupid argument would be, even before you made it, huh? I'm talking about a general understanding within the sporting world that tends to be based on a financial factor, not the specifics of the amateur/professional definition from sport to sport.

Furthermore, you say...
Corky wrote:When I was talking about people I was referring to those not in the sport. I.e. audience, media, friends and family. For them Pro and Am is a good comprehensible destinction.
Are you deliberately misunderstanding me, and the history of modern sports just to continue this argument?

People do care about amateur and professional categorization, and the generally comprehended distinction has more to do about money and compensation than anything else. Even people who are not actively participating in a sport care. You can't really believe that the ONLY people in this world who were interested, upset or concerned about Karli Schranz' being banned from World Cup ski racing were the other racers. If that was the case, why did it make sporting news for weeks around the world? Just so the otherwise unconcerned media could make sure that the news caught up with all of Mr. Schranz' competition? When I used to think it was completely lame that Soviet weightlifter Alexyv was supported by his government, while non-Communist weightlifters (a sport in which, at the time, there was NO real financial headroom for a professional class) had to support themselves, I wasn't a competitive weightlifter. I was just an interested 10 year old sport fan and my semi-natural understanding of the terms "professional" and "amateur" having to do with money was already complete, even by that age.

I don't mean to be insulting, but maybe there really was enough of a cultural difference between where I grew up in the US and wherever you grew up, such that things that seem second-nature to me seem completely invisible to you. I mean, here in the US, this general understanding is so complete and so pervasive that even the insurance industries and the Internal Revenue Service (taxes) tend to be arranged accordingly. Think about it... the insurance companies don't charge more to cover "professional" events because they think professionals are MORE skilled. That wouldn't make sense at all. The insurance companies charge more to cover "professional" events because the word "professional" leads them to believe that there is considerably more money involved.

I'd love to take a poll on what age our readers were when they first came to understand that, as it generally relates to the sporting world, professional meant for money and amateur meant for NO money? (I was six or seven.)

Here's another poll that might explain a lot... Hey, Corky! Do you or have you considered or called yourself a Pro slalom skateboarder?

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:29 pm

Andy, why this aggressive undertone? I just don't agree with you. It's not the end of the world you know. I have stated my point and have nothing more to add on that. Maybe you could try reading it again with another attitude. It might help.

I don't know why it should interest someone if I consider myself as Pro or not. But since you ask it is quite clear for those who know me and myself that I belong to the amateur class. I fear the day I will start to win some Am contests and feel forced to enter the pro group. Looking at my results this year I have taken a step back even. But the truth is more likley that many European amateurs has taken several steps forward.

Talking about the Pro class this is by the way something that I have thought a lot about. Every year there will be Am winners going up to the pro class. But how many pros are stepping down? Not many. What will happen in a couple of years with a pro class steadily growing? Interesting. Maybe we will end up like in the late 80's and early 90's where there were no am group. They had all turned "pro". The growth of the sport was at a standstill. And who wanted to start slalom and going to competitions racing against all those pros? Well I tried and it was no fun. Now with the new amateur scene in Europe it's great fun. Just some thoughts. I guess what I'm saying is that Pros are important but we must not forget where they all come from. They where all once amateurs. If we forget the Ams we will once again saw off the branch we are sitting on.

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Post by Andy Bittner » Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:38 am

Corky, It's obvious we both love the sport, and I have absolutely no problem with the fact that you disagree with me. What you perceive as an aggressive tone is far more frustrated than aggressive. I don't care if you disagree with me, what I disagree with is when someone in discussion in a public forum uses bad information (like Chris Bara's "pro" never meant money in skateboarding... wrong), wild and wooly generalizations (your people don't care what the distinction is between pro and am anyway... wrong), and what seem to be deliberate misinterpretations of something I've said in a previous post to argue a point. That's why I asked you whether you refer to yourself as pro. I'm trying to understand why you are so committed to including the word "Pro" in our sport at this time. Your whole commitment to using the word "Pro" as a skill level category seems so illogical to me and your arguments so irrational that I thought, perhaps, there might've been an ego motivation.

Although I've probably now used thousands of words to make it, my whole point is to avoid unnecessary complications now, when we (or someone) will eventually have to repair or correct them later. "Later" is when things become harder to change. You made a point earlier about the specific definitions for pro and am in the golf and tennis examples (did you read them?). When we get that big, and when we need definitions that specific, you're confident we'll have it all worked out. My primary point is that if this is where we want to be headed, and it is all something we'll eventually have to work out, why don't we do ourselves and the future of slalom skateboarding a favor by putting as few kinks, obstacles, curves, double-backs and blind corners in the path as possible? If it's really something of little or no consequence now, and we know it will become of some consequence later and that we'd eventually have to change exactly this, why in hell are we so dedicated to building it into our system anyway?

Here is another thought. You said something about worrying over the day that you win Am contests and feel forced into the Pro ranks. Nobody should ever be forced to turn Professional. Because the general undertanding of the word, at least here in the US, is so pervasively about money, there are legal, business, tax and insurance situations that any successful professional athlete will eventually have to take up as a result of operating under the blanket understanding of "professional athlete". No sport should ever be able to force an athlete into having to become a business in order to keep competing. Even if slalom skateboarding publishes it's own definition of the term "professional" as having nothing to do with money, the lengths to which a successful and so named "professional" slalom skater will have to go in order to have these legal, tax, business and insurance bodies recognize the difference will still be considerable and something into which nobody should ever be forced simply becauase they're good at slalom skateboarding.

Personally, I crave the day when the best slalom skateboarder in the sport is a true amateur. Let's say Bruce Brewington, the style-meister, suddenly becomes the fastest, winningest slalom skater in the world... As I understand it, Bruce is a very successful individual, financially-speaking. He wouldn't need whatever paltry sum a slalom skateboarding victory might bring him, and if I were him, the money AND the ego strokes that might come from being called a "professional" definitely wouldn't be worth the tax and business complications it might create in my otherwise very successful life. There's something honorable, laudable and even epic about an athlete who can ascend to the pinnacle of a sport with every intention of never profiting knowingly from that effort. History is full of them.

Frankly, and you might not even know it, I'm the ego case. I'm the guy who jumped into the Pro category a long time ago, primarily for the ego rush of being able to refer to myself as some sort of professional athlete. The modern incarnation of our sport would never hold me to that decision based on my poor condition, average skill level or the $105 I earned for 5th place in my first pro race, back in 1990. However, the family and culture in which I was raised always affirmed that any choice to turn professional in any competitive pursuit should be taken with grave seriousness and be considered as completely irrevokable. If I ever get my real life back in order and start racing again, even if I am allowed to compete as an Am, I will always, if possible, attempt to race in the Pro Class. To do otherwise would feel, perhaps only in my heart, dishonorable.

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Post by John Gilmour » Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:10 pm

Preamble
The United States Golf Association reserves the right to change the Rules of Amateur Status and to make and change the interpretations of the Rules of Amateur Status at any time.

excerpt-


3-2. Prize Limits
An amateur golfer must not:
a. Accept a prize (including all prizes received in any one tournament or exhibition for any event, or series of events, in which golf skill is a factor) of a retail value greater than $750 (except for symbolic prizes);

end excerpt-





So therefore any skater that has won more than $750 in a single contest can be a Pro.

There are some large differences if you take the ratio of top golf prize money to $750 . AS compared to top prize money in slalom skateboarding to $750.

So I guess if you won more than $750 in a slalom skateboard contest- you could not be an Amatuer any more- even though once you do the math you should find this Prize money level to actually be far lower than $750.


So basically anyone who won more than $750 for a single FCR race is a pro. Or for any other single slalom contest for that matter.
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Pro slalom racing just died.

Post by John Gilmour » Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:30 pm

Andy Bittner wrote:
John, slalom skateboarding isn't quasi-undersponsored, it's completely undersponsored. Of course, in all due respect to the people who are doing their financial best to support, promote and grow the sport, the term "undersponsored" should not be confused with the term "unsponsored"

I also think you've pretty well made my primary point for me...
I say "Quasi" because realistically few have heard of slalom skateboarding and contests held without fresh spectators do not increase our recognition- so we aren't worthy of being sponsored yet- as we don't yet have much of a spectator/customer base. IF we have recognition and a large spectator base.....like freestyle motocross for instance- and we were still getting purses and sponsorship like now...I would say we were just Undersponsored not "Quasi -undersponsored". There is no lack of talent by the top slalom racers- just lack of recognition for what they do.
John Gilmour wrote:Slalom racers ascribe a certain status to a rider for his past performances in varied fields of competition. For lack of more precisely descriptive terms we use the terms "PRO" and "AM".
So, what you're saying is...
John Gilmour wrote:For lack of more precisely descriptive terms we use the terms "PRO" and "AM".
Andy Bittner wrote:We're different because we say we are! I got a good idea... why not, for lack of more precise terms, and to avoid confusion with other words that already have a strongly considered meaning in the sporting world, call the really good skaters "bagels" and the less good skaters "doughnuts"? ...for lack of more precise terms?

I understand our sport is very small, and still way too small to really support any, true, professional class. My point is, and always has been, that while this remains the truth, and to make for a less complicated undoing of all of this when the sport does get big enough to truly support a professional field, let's stop stroking our egos by pretending it's big and misapplying the term "professional".

Actually any term of Pro or Am are different because we say we are. We can have our own determinations of Pro and AM in our sport- we just need to make up a definition for slalom skateboarding that isn't too far from the other sports and stick with it. It doesn't have to be another sport's definition. You are right in this point. Most pro tennnis players are better than most Am players. So much better that people are willing to pay to go watch this player play- some in hope of improving their own game and some just because they want to see tennis play at the limit of what is humanly possible....they want to see the best available players in the world.


In this regard- who is currently the best in the world....I think we could define that pretty easily. I don't feel comfortable for instance in refering to Luca as an amatuer-



Heres a dialog

Spectator/former racer #1
" Look there goes Luca the World's best Amatuer champion! Isn't that amazing to watch! "

Newbie spectator #2
"Wow that is amazing- that looks impossible I could never do that!"

Spectator/former racer #1 "Yep he's one fast racer, he's been the top amatuer racer for years"

Newbie spectator #2
"Well after watching that Top Amatuer- I wonder when the pros are racing? Do you have a race schedule on you?


Spectator/former racer #1
"There is no pro class, this is it. "


Newbie spectator #2
"But before when they introduced the announcer - Henry Hester, they said he was a top pro racer- the biggest money winning skateboarder in the early 1970's, and I hear he still races. Also Charlie Ransom and Steve Olson were called a top pros in the 1970's as well by Hester, and they are racing today... so they are no longer Pros?"



Spectator/former racer #1
"Yes that is right- they are all amatuers now- mostly because the prize money isn't big any more. So there is no pro class."

Newbie spectator #2
"So did the purses shrink? Is that is why they are amatuers now?"


Spectator/former racer #1
"Well actually- the purses didn't really shrink. With a few exceptions- they are close to the same. There were a few large purse races in the 1970's- but Mollica likely will win all three races and walk with about $7000 so I guess the purses are about the same."

Newbie spectator #2
"So why aren't they "pros " still?

Spectator/former racer #1
"Well when you adjust for the cost of living changes the money isn't the same"

Newbie spectator #2
"So did skateboards get more expensive? Relative to the prize money? So the purses became smaller relative to how much gear you have to buy to be able to win?"


Spectator/former racer #1
"No actually if you went out and bought a starter slalom deck today it would run you about $150 and be even better than the best ones available in the 1970's so actually except for a few products in "adjusted dollars" the slalom gear in quality has gotten cheaper so the prize money is probably gotten bigger relative to the cost of the gear. Luca's board, the one he has raced on for 20 years probably cost less than $100."

Newbie spectator #2
"So its just that beach front property values in Malibu have skyrocketed so much that we can no longer call these Worlds best skaters Pros?"

Spectator/former racer #1
"Exactly- according to some people". uhhhh....but wait- I think Hackett and O'Shei still live in Malibu.

Newbie spectator #2
What happened when someone went up to Steve Olson, Dave Hackett, Duane Peters, Charlie Ransom, and informed them that according to some skaters they were no longer Pros? What did he call them...."Bagels"?


Spectator/former racer #1
"So far as I know that hasn't happened. There have been some who said they were going to do that- but they haven't been able to talk about what happened- mostly because they have been spending so many consecutive weekends at the Oral Surgeon's office- everytime it looks like they are getting better- they seem to have another accident and can't talk for a few more weeks"



Andy, if you want to tell BLR and all the other Pro class slalom racers that they are "Bagels or doughnuts" and no longer Pros...well............. that's up to you. I just think the term pro suits them better. Who in the World is going to beat the top guys? Aren't the top guys Pros? How do we turn the Pro into an AM? What sort of lifestyle must the Pro support? Does the slalom skateboarder have to live in Trump Tower? Or can he live in a frat house? Or the dormatory of a prominent women's college?


(Look! Gilmour missed a Car payment! Aha aha! He can't afford his lifestyle anymore....lets make him an AM!)

Does this happen in Golf?....just because a former Top pro can't make a luxury living anymore- do we retire him as an AM? IMHO I think that would show a total lack of respect for his golfing acomplishments- but I am not a sports enthusiast- so I really don't know what they do...I had no idea the NHL was going bankrupt for instance...and BTW Jack- doesn't that make us even more similar to Hockey? Lol. That's some funny stuff.
Last edited by John Gilmour on Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by John Gilmour » Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:54 pm

I also agree with Corky that we should run the top pros during the time of the day with the most spectators.

Then we could continue to run brackets of 8 until it got dark.

I think the Top Pro bracket could be larger though- mostly because in the top 16 we would expect to see the times more bunched up.

So in regards to "a pro b-pro" this would satify that.

Also I think our talent pool is large enough that we should start thinking about separate (Spelling?) courses. The PROs should feel challenged. The AM class should feel that they can complete the course. I even think it would not be unreasonable to have a hill where the steeper section is for the pros and the less steep section is for the AMs.

I wouldn't worry about a cluttered pro class until it actually happens. With separate courses and the Pro course being challenging, steep and on good surface, I think that would limit the people entering that class to ones that could make the course at speed. I think some very technical courses that are steep and fast are actually easier to make at speed. And so we wouldn't see people getting through them slowly.

For instance I'm trying to get to MB this year, but I am not missing not racing on rougher surface or slight pitch- it just isn't the type of racing that appeals to me. In fact this year I'll likely enjoy myself more as a spectator than as a racer. There won't be much difference. Last year I missed competeing in the slalomcross race- this year I'll miss competing in all of them. IF the hill were steep and smooth- I'd really be crawling out of my skin to ride it. Yet as AM courses both hills are fine for the Open class.

Jack- this isn't a slag on you- you have to use whatever pavement/hill is made available to you. Also according to the signup, for a tech TS I would see about 15 or less racers able to make a steep fast tech course so what to do with the other 90 or so racers?- Have them blow out on a steep pitch in a nearly impossible high speed course? No- everyone should race and enjoy racing.
Just as Snowboarding has some specialized events for some top pros (King of the Hill -Alaska)- we might have to have a few of our own events like that .

In regards to the insurance issues--- it may be that if Pros are competeing than it is a "PRO race"? Don't insurance companies employ actuaries that base the premiums on risk not on nomenclature? Maybe we need to show insurance companies that no spectators have ever been hit- to get the premiums to match the risk. With over 100 slalom races on NCDSA.com alone... we now have some viable sort of history for the Insurance compaies to give reasonable rates.

An open race with Pros and Ams costs that much less than the same group of racers running the exact same course- but then broken down into separate pro and am classes? Isn't that- ....rather arbitrarily?

I believe what they told you but at some point someone should explain that the insurance risk is exactly the same- and that the size of the crowds- the sponsorship dollars also remain exactly the same. So the premium in this instance should remain the same. You have a track record of this back to 2001. Since most Ams have had little difficulty in making the courses then we would refer to them as AM level courses - The racing has been Pros and Ams competeing on AM level courses. So in this case the insurance shouldn't be more than running an AM course. Surely a Pro is less likely to get hurt on an AM level course than a PRO level course. I would be happy to speak with the insurer for you to do some work to lighten your workload- I'd be very interested to hear the insurer's point of view given the above.

Also in sheer numbers of "Pros" attending are there more or less this year than last year?
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Post by Christopher Bara » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:31 pm

john, you could be a lawyer

adding to the insurance question with Pro and Am, i cant say anything conclusive without seeing the contract, but i can tell you from being in the business that we insure "risk and liability".
The insurance policy would pretect the venue or city from lawsuit in the case of injury while using it in the form of an organized event. pretty common stuff. what i dont understand is why "pro" would cause the rates to rise. Amatuers, by definition, would be less experienced, and more likely to perform an action that would result in injury to themselves (risk)( or bystanders (liability) . This is why young drivers and elderly drivers pay so much more for car insurance than those in their late 20's to early 50's. So i'm at a loss with the insurance portion.

As for the course difficulty. From what i could see, most skaters could make it down most courses without blowing out...but the true pro's can pump harder on the way down and finish faster, generating more speed, than the am's who would have to steer thru without pumping, (or at least pumping much softer). Am's may need softer or smaller wheels, but that's no biggie. At the very most, use the same course, but maybe move the farthest offsets in farther or spread out a couple cones, but personally, i'd rather try the same course as the pro's to see how well i can do it...it's a matter of seeing how i'd match up.
Just my $0.02

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Post by John Gilmour » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:55 pm

Christopher Bara wrote: , but personally, i'd rather try the same course as the pro's to see how well i can do it...it's a matter of seeing how i'd match up.
Just my $0.02
I also have felt this way- but I can remember prettty vividly one practice night at the Trocadero (1990) with Jani Soderhall and Jose Dematos- they dropped down what was clearly a pro level course- and I couldn't come close make it past the fifth cone. I tried about 5 times and sat it out- watched them rip though the course super fast under the lights- seemingly going fast enough that when Jani was near the bottom a separate identical image seemed to strobe out next to him on the other side of the cones.

It wasn't fun sitting out and watch someone ride a pro level couse....it was awe inspiring. So I went back to the USA after the Hombrechtikon race in Switzerland to set more challenging courses.


Last time I felt that way was watching Simon Levene run a super tight tech course at speed in 2001 in Cambria before MB2001. He ran it fast- smoking a cigar with a 3 inch long ash- and no one else was able to make the course at all.

After those two experiences I don't think I would enter a course way above my ability just to blow out...instead I'd run the course I was capable to run- and go home and set some similar courses. Mostly because I would get a lot more racing in as opposed to two DQ's for my entry fee.

But heck--- I tried just like you want to try- sometimes you go for it and make it- other times you don't- and as things get harder you are less likely to pull it off.
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Insurance and Golf

Post by Jack Smith » Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:50 am

Hey, I just made up that stuff about insurance...just kidding.

Speaking og golf, Davis Love III ordered a couple of snowboarding DVDs from me a couple of weeks ago, he rides.

It was kind of cool watching him in the Ryder Cup a few days later.

We've exchanged a few emails...cool guy.

Gilmour is a lawyer, he just doesn't know it.

JG if you make it to Morro, would you care to do some announcing?

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Post by Martin Drayton » Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:05 pm

If John announces, will he have the same hair style as at the Farm?

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Post by John Gilmour » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:51 pm

I'm trying to book flights- if I can get one of them for the extra miles I have...I'm there. I be happy to do some announcing if you like. Maybe a motorized wheelchair or something that allowed me to have a camera as well as use a radio mic and chase the racers down the course.
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Post by Jack Quarantillo » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:29 pm

how 'bout a Segway and a headset mic?

Image

Q

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Re: Insurance and Golf

Post by John Gilmour » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:34 pm

snipped
Jack Smith wrote: Gilmour is a lawyer, he just doesn't know it.

JG if you make it to Morro, would you care to do some announcing?
I perfer the term mediator. lol. or fireman.

I'm trying to book flights- if I can get one of them for the extra miles I have...I'm there. I be happy to do some announcing if you like. One thing I think would be great would be to chase the racers down the course with a golf cart and radio mic. I think those segways top out too slow like hte wheelchairs- about 12mph..?? If mollica brought his Exkate powerboard one other option is to have someone using the board while another films and comments- but that's a long day of catameranging. ...okay for the finals maybe.

Still the Hooter grils/golfcart combo/scorpion bowls sounds the best to me.
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Post by Chris Favero » Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:13 pm

i read some,scrolled thru others and as what i consider myself,an am,i just want to add.i dig the grass roots thing,why,i get to race more.the chi town gigs were good,athens rocked.66 was really organized and it showed.his outlaw race was awesome.killer,killer hill,jam formats,run until you are too tired or too scared.ricky said something about last minute rule changes,i agree with his point. when they are made,it seems it at the expense of ams(ie:the one run head to head elimination for the "b" class at the farm."a"still ran two after the "b").i have qualified "a" and i have qualified "b" and when it comes to brackets like that(the open scenario) why bother.crown one world champ,run the women with the men,the boys with the men.who cares.i have cuaght my self saying in those cases "i got 20th,but 13th in the "b" pro".how weak is that?
i do know in europe,they take the am thing serious.thats why when you go to one of their races they have 25 to 30 pros and 60 ams.the ams were all skill levels in paris.from newbies to the top ams who were on the verge.werent stride and seyfarth ams last year?
lastly,one last kick to the beehive.in the last two weeks i have twice read jack smith threatening to refund someones entry fee to the worlds.i believe it was goad and drayton.what is that all about?i only comment on it because it was done both times in public forums.cf
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:20 am

I just read this post over at ncdsa about the 2 group dilemma. It's like music to my ears. In the ncdsa forum these good posts tend to soon run over the 25 latest limit and be gone forever (for many). I thought it was worth saving for the future.
A Slalom lover wrote: Great weekend in many ways. Jack did a great job, many good people gave up a lot of time and worked darn hard to make it happen. Awesome performances by a talented group of skaters and many characters who add so much color to our sport.
HOWEVER, the following is not just MY opinion, but one voiced by many who were there who will just not post because as "nobody's" they feel they will just get blasted.( Jack, this is NOT a personal attack, it is meant to be constructive criticism). But hey, we are the Country that believes in Freedom of Speech, aren't we?
Where do I begin.
1) A and B Pro or Pro/Open? A system that sees skaters of the quality of like Billy Wahl and Mike Stirde in the last 4 in the B group one day and in the last 8 in the A group the next, cannot be right! What incentive is there for riders on the other side of the country (or the World) to come and race with any hope of success when they might be racing a Pro who just had a bad run. I for one heard one of those 2 racers say "This is wrong, we should be in the A group-we're taking up places that other guys should have". Even they didn't want to be there. Ask Cliff Coleman if he understands why he got an award and a title for coming 25th in the Super-G? World Champ of what-I think he said.
2)When it is decided to hold a vote to decide whether the bottom of the course is too tight (not everyone was even there for the vote-including me), 20 vote to change, 10 vote to leave it and we are told that this is not "overwhelming" so therefore it stays. Whats the point of voting in the first place? i thought Democracy was when 11 people outvoted 10...That was weak man.
3)Surprise surprise, 48 people didn't make the course and get a time. What happens? At least one person who double DQ'd gets a second chance (and ends up 2nd in the B's). No-one explained how or why that was worked out that way. Even if its the fastest non-qualifier, the time doesn't take into account whether a rider stops slaloming several cones from the finish and just rides straight does it? (No, I'm not saying that is what happened, but it just shows the system is flawed)

There needs to be a structure that allows progression, allows top level riders to have a s#@!ty qualifying run like current World Slalom Champ Fluitt did in Breck and not end up in the B group which he then wins easily(in retrospect ain't this obviously wrong and an error with the format?).
It should encourage the lower level riders to feel that there is a reason to come without feeling that they will just be "pro-fodder"

Shouldn't we have a rule book (like skiing and snowboarding) that lays down angle of slope required for each event, cone spacing, distance off the fall-line, no. of cones per amount of terrain? Didn't the Euros have something like that years ago?

Please, anyone who feels the same, SAY SOMETHING!!! The only reason I have remained anonymous is I don' want to be the on;y one to be told that "I'll refund your entry fee" or "Go organise your own comp".

Don't leave me hangin'...

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