THE DECLINE OF RACES

[Donald Campbell]

controversial stuff but i made a few observations:

when races get repeated year after year,the small community seems to loose interest.
after having done some research i found a few races here and in the us which underline this sad observation.

the cure:new venues and some of the "yearly" races taking a break.

let's hear some thoughts...

[Noah Heinle]

I think it's the increased number of races, not fading interest in a specific venue that causes the decline you're referring to. Take Dixie for example. Anyone who has attended leaves wanting to return next time. But this year, it was 5 short weeks after the worlds with 2 pretty big US events between them. I think only Richy and Pappas made it to all 4. Most have to pick one or the other. I think this is a positive indication of the growth of the sport. But I do see why you would raise the point.

[Karl Floitgraf]

We're all trying to do our part. I think that having others to follow the example of for race organization- makes race organizing easier. The DHB and COSS have really done this. They have also formed organizations like the ASSA which makes race insurance a much more managable. All we can do is try, but with their ground work we can do a lot.

[Pierre Gravel]

Some times I get the impression we all act like we are Nascar racers with a big circuit of races all over the world, but let’s face it, we don’t have 200 corporate logos on our boards and suits… I think we, slalomers will have to get into organization of more regional races, (of course this means getting more young people into our sport) then have a few periodical State/Provincial races, this also means less “Big, World" type Races and when they do happen, we all should try to make them more meaningfull, by attracting all major racers who won or placed well in their regionals, with good prize money and cheap accomodations, backed up by bigger corporate sponsors. Also as it’s sometimes the case, not in the middle of nowhere but in medium sized cities with crowds and TV coverage.

We should get rid of the Pro/Am thing too, times should decide at each race who’s in the A, B etc… My 2 cents.

[Ramón Königshausen]

we all should try to make them more meaningfull, by attracting all major racers who won or placed well in their regionals, with good prize money and cheap accomodations, backed up by bigger corporate sponsors.

Good point but that'll take some time...

We should get rid of the Pro/Am thing too, times should decide at each race who’s in the A, B etc… My 2 cents.

No. Because of difficulty of courses. You can't have the same TS for Pro and Am. Believe me or not, but that just doesn't work.

my 2 Swiss Rapps

rmn

[Pierre Gravel]

We should get rid of the Pro/Am thing too, times should decide at each race who’s in the A, B etc… My 2 cents.

No. Because of difficulty of courses. You can't have the same TS for Pro and Am. Believe me or not, but that just doesn't work.

my 2 Swiss Rapps

rmn

I did not say same courses for everyone, just separate who's faster this given day by it's qualif time, it could work.

[Pat Chewning]

controversial stuff but i made a few observations:

when races get repeated year after year,the small community seems to loose interest.
after having done some research i found a few races here and in the us which underline this sad observation.

the cure:new venues and some of the "yearly" races taking a break.

let's hear some thoughts...

I think there are more examples of races getting bigger/better each year than races declining each year. We can't expect EVERY race that gets repeated year after year to get bigger and better. There will be an ebb and flow of races gaining/losing ground.

I also think on average, the following things are improving each year:
Number of races
Participant levels
Speed
Competition (number of top racers who are close to winning)
Organization and presentation.

[Ramón Königshausen]

We should get rid of the Pro/Am thing too, times should decide at each race who’s in the A, B etc… My 2 cents.

No. Because of difficulty of courses. You can't have the same TS for Pro and Am. Believe me or not, but that just doesn't work.

my 2 Swiss Rapps

rmn

I did not say same courses for everyone, just separate who's faster this given day by it's qualif time, it could work.

You can't compare the times if you run two different courses. How are you going to determine who runs which course?

Possible solution: Look at the results of previous races. Those rankings could determine. So once you do good results in the Amateur's category you'll have to climb up (using a point system would be useful maybe

Anyway, that is not part of this topic I think and should be discussed in the rules topic. I'll try to repost this post in a suiting topic.

EDIT: Moved post to
2008 ISSA Rules Update -- Section 10 (Racer Classification)

rmn

[Karl Floitgraf]

Pro and Am seperation is great. You would never get any new talent or blood into the sport if they had to go up against pros in the first rounds of elimination.

[justin collins]

i agree with you on that one karl. Pros are pro for a reason, cus they're wicked fast. But i must say, it sure was fun racing the pro's saturday at dixie. It's good to race side by side the pros from time to time and the Dixie cup venue allows us to do just that.
Justin

[Martin Drayton]

I don't think the difference between Pro and Am should just be speed...it should be skill too! The current system in Europe has meant different courses for the two groups, this means that the pros need to be able to negotiate more technical courses. In TS/Special this means tighter, more rhythm breaks, more offsets etc, in GS this means more high speed turns that test traction for Pros, more open flowing courses for Ams...
How many times have their been complaints about courses? Too easy, too tight, felt like a Downhill etc....This, I feel, is happening because we are trying to set comprimise courses that suit everyone and thats almost impossible to do.
How can you have, for example, a TS race where you are trying to suit people just coming into racing and you don't want to put them off yet at the same time making it a challenge for riders like Cbark and Ramon who excel at the REALLY tight stuff?
Whats the point of Donald or the guys at Radikal developing new tighter turning trucks if the courses are 6-8ft so that everyone can do them?

I hear what Justin says too, as an Am its cool to check your times against the Pros, it gives you a benchmark. but in Germany they had some spare time and let the Pros and Ams loose on a "Pro" Course....the result? The top Ams struggled on a course that the Pros were negotiating without any trouble.

I suppose it depends what area of skills we are trying to develop in our sport, are we just deciding that speed is the difference or speed plus technical ability?

[Carsten Pingel]

I think nowadays we also have a split in the AM division! There are AM's which are "really" AM...means lack of skills, contests and so on, and on the other hand there are AM's which are skilled for years, can easily race PRO, attend a lot of races, BUT for unknown reasons they stay AM?!

I like the idea of doing this A,B,....stuff!

Btw, I like the idea of having a "Slalom Skateboarding Wimbledon" , means an annual repetitive race.

[Jani Soderhall]

Btw, I like the idea of having a "Slalom Skateboarding Wimbledon" , means an annual repetitive race.

Are you talking about Paris?

Or should we close down? It's either or, you decide.

Actually I for one prefer to go to new destinations. For example, I never thought it was a good idea to have the Worlds in Morro Bay five years in a row. But maybe the most important is that TITLE races rotate to different locations, different continents, different organizers. While other races should (at least could) stay and become classics. In the end it's the participation at these races that decides if it's worth carrying on. And the racers make their decision based on the value for "money" that they get from the organizers efforts. For Paris in particular, last year it wasn't the best race of the season, so it is my intention to step it up for this year and make it the way we want it to be. The outcome of this years race will probably determine if we keep going after that.

/Jani

[Donald Campbell]

good suggestion jani.i am a bit surprised about your proposal,but it is exactly what i think.i would like to see more rotation in the yearly events,if possible.paris takes a break,so does latvia,instead we have new venues such as cadwell,amsterdam f.e.
it makes more sense if there is a bit of rotation in the circuit.
maybe it is also wise to limit the # of contests per year,otherwise the contests are competing too much for the racers.

[Donald Campbell]

another weakness paris has is the so called giant.
a different track would be highly appreciated,or maybe cancel the "giant" and do something else instead.

[Erik Basil]

I think that regularly, or predictably, scheduled races are good for growth of a sport. When racers and spectators can look forward to the occurrence of a race with a familiar name and/or place, attendance and perceptions of legitimacy go up.

This isn't to say that particular events can't or won't "ebb and flow" as someone mentioned above. With most race events being money-losers that are programmed out of the heart, soul and stoke of the promoter(s), things will vary. That's just how it is. One thing I note: if we want something to be better, perhaps a particular event, we can do something about it or not. Doing something about it might be actual work on the event, or it might just be complaining over and over again that it sucks. Which one is more likely to result in more and better events?

[Jani Soderhall]

Donald,

Let's not have too much expectations on first year events. It's rarely a highlight. Organizers need at least a year or two to get their act together and do a good job. The first year it's most often overwhelming. Also I don't think it is the intention of Michael Stride to make the Cadwell event a main. I think he just wants to attract a good group of racers and put on a good race.

If it is a general opinion that Paris should take a break, this is the opportunity to speak up. Based upon my view on last years event and many other events over the last years I decided that either we drop it or we work to improve it. I choose to keep it going, despite the fact that it doesn't fit my work schedule this year (either) and as no one within Riderz was ready to step it up and take the responsability I did. I will be the main organizer of the Paris event in 2008, but I'm ready to spare my efforts for another year. So, just speak up.

Your strategy to suggest race organizers to step aside is probably not a very productive effort and probably not what you wanted. I hope your intention is more to encourage new race venues and a circulation of main/major statuses.

/Jani

[Tom Mangelsdorf]

Let's not have too much expectations on first year events. It's rarely a highlight. Organizers need at least a year or two to get their act together and do a good job. The first year it's most often overwhelming.

I put on a modest little race in Wisconsin each June. 2008 will be the 3rd year. Mine is actually a charity event - all the entry fees go to support a local community non-profit organization. In 2006 we actually lost $48 when it was all done. But in 2007 we brought in over $800. Yes - we did have more people in 2007 than we did in 2006 ... but not $800 worth. The difference is that the community saw the race in 2006, and when it came time to start looking for sponsors in 2007, local businesses were much more excited about it and willing to throw down.

At the after-the-race meeting I had with the non-profit people, they asked a lot of these same questions - namely, how do we make it bigger? How do we attract more people? It was the non-profit people that suggested cash prizes. That seemed funny to me because the whole purpose of having the race is to raise money for them. Giving out cash prizes would mean less money for them to keep, right? But it was their idea, so depending on how much $$$ I can raise from the local businesses, we may have cash prizes this year. that would be cool.

I don't know if that will entice more people to come out to the race or not. We'll find out.

[Erik Basil]

Tom, promote it heavily in advance. On the ground, find cheap ways to place flyers, table-tents or etc... in restaurants, stores and even skate shops. On the internet, find places to advertise the event that will be seen by more than just the skaters at the event, and ensure the links (if any) to the charities' websites are included. The Charities will see a bump in traffic and may received donations from those not even attending the actual event.

[Tom Mangelsdorf]

Yeah - I've put fliers up in local skate shops and the schools in the area. Freedom Skateboards in Madison has been a big help. I also put the word out via the ISSA, NCDSA, and SilverFish forums. Cfav and all the Chi+ill crew have helped a great deal too. Elizabeth from Sk8trip saw the event on either the NCDSA or ISSA calendar and sent a box of ABEC11 goodies to give away.

The word is getting out. In 2007 we had people come in from all over Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Florida, and Washington.

Our local newspaper ran 2 articles about the up-coming race in the weeks leading up to the race. That helped. I'd love to be able to get the Madison papers to say a little something about it - it'd be nice if they could run an article after the race with the results and photos. One of the local TV stations has a "Hometown Scrapbook" on their website where you can post pictures of what's happening in your town. I submitted 4 or 5 photos of the 2007 race and they put 'em out there. It would be really awsome to get that station to come out and shoot some video of the race for their news broadcast. I'm working on that.

[Doug Kadzban]

we gotta have more small-time races like what mangels is doing...i know that for me at least, his race is the nearest one to michigan (yes, my location makes it easier to get to wisconsin than to detroit). gotta start small with grassroots/outlaw events to get the people involved, then those that do take interest will start attending larger/sanctioned events. i know there was a group of guys this summer that tried to get a slalom event in lansing, MI (i myself was in that group), but that never took off because we couldn't find a spot or time.

[Tom Mangelsdorf]

I would come to Lansing for a race ...

[Wesley Tucker]

When does the snow start melting and the glaciers recede up that way? Memorial Day? Before the 4th of July?

[Doug Kadzban]

When does the snow start melting and the glaciers recede up that way? Memorial Day? Before the 4th of July?

we get a brief break from snow around august 7-8...sometimes

but, summer is just 3 months of bad sledding

[Tom Mangelsdorf]

When I lived in Alaska we used to say: "Summer in Alaska is great. When it falls on a weekend you can have some friends over for a bar-b-que."

[Marion Karr]

controversial stuff but i made a few observations:

when races get repeated year after year,the small community seems to loose interest.
after having done some research i found a few races here and in the us which underline this sad observation.

the cure:new venues and some of the "yearly" races taking a break.

I think Donald has a point in that we as a group should be looking for new opportunities but we should also look for ways to build on the races we have. Improve them...move the venue..change the courses...adjust format. Part of the problem I see it (and am at risk of experiencing myself) is burn out from the race promoters themselves. It is important for the race promoters to engage and empower other people to assist them, take the lead, and manage the events. Races can and will decline when the race promoter no longer has the energy, drive, and motivation, to make the event memorable.

As far as Pro/Am seperation I think that should depend specifically in the number of racers both Pro/Am you have in attendance. In the case of the Dixie Cup this year we only had 7 pros...as opposed to 16 to 18 in previous years. Noah has pointed the reasons out for that reduction in his comment. For the Friday Night and Sunday races (both single lane) we seperated the Pro's from the Am's but for Dual Lane Hybrid on Saturday we blended the group. We also did the same last year when we had a large field of Pro's but interesting enough several Am's qualified into the A Bracket (with a few pro's relegated to the B's) and it made for some pretty amazing racing.

For Mains/Majors I think there should be a seperation but as long as you have the field to support it.

[John Gilmour]

I think that some spots are more prone to burn out than others.

Trocadero in Paris has such a flow of tourists who may have never seen slalom... that it doesn't seem to become old for them


New York comes to mind for me. for burnout being possible even with tourists...

When we used to initially do practices on Highway hill (Cat Hill) in Central Park initially for the first year we drew crowds on any weekend that were many times bigger than any US slalom contest I have ever been to. Then after 20 years of Skateboard and Inline slaloming going on at Tavern on the Green... everyone has seen it already. If you held a contest there- you would get spectators from just having the PA system and signage ..but nothing like we could get if it was all new to people. Still more spectators than at many races we have held. Ideally if racers have to exlpain things to people all day about slalom...that to me is a highly successful race- it means spectators are interested and it is new to them.

And- if you have a slalom race in a a small town... I think as years go on the town loses a lot of interest because it is something they have already seen. Small towns should likey not have annual races but either every other year or every third year.

So I think the contests should move..and to new pavement always if possible (as a determining factor) and this keeps it fresh not only for the spectators but for the racers too. It also gives us more exposure world wide.

To have major contests year after year in small areas with the same towns people watching does not give us the exposure we should be getting when we have gone through the difficulty to assemble the world's best slalom talent.

As we make our timing systems more portable and expand on wireless for our contests and so forth..technologically speaking it gets much easier to hold a contest. Less cables and power issues.

So we should not be so afraid to try new venues and more boldly move towards more city centers (for upper level contests) and areas with hilly residential areas with densely populated towns for local races.