[Discussion] Let's change Major to World Cup

Archive of older ISSA topics

Moderators: Jonathan Harms, Jani Soderhall

Locked
Marcus Rietema
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:16 am
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
Contact:

[Discussion] Let's change Major to World Cup

Post by Marcus Rietema » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:18 pm

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what is the top level ISSA race. When I ask people, "Is it major or main?" 9 times out of ten nobody is sure. By looking at the new contest calender I now understand that Major is the top. I'd like to propose that we change the name "Major" to "World Cup". This would be the first step in building an "ISSA World Cup Series". If we do this in 2009, it could be comprised of 3 races (Australia, Europe, North America) and as the scene develops we can add South America as well. The top racers in the sport could focus on making it to these events to earn the title of "ISSA World Cup Series Champion". Each year one of the "World Cup" races would be designated the "ISSA World Championships". This really isn't much of a departure from what we are currently doing. It's more of a repackaging of existing events to make them more marketable and easier to understand for sponsors, spectators and the racers themselves. "World Cup" is a much more powerful marketing term than "Major".
Marcus Rietema
President- International Gravity Sports Association
Phone: 951-532-6378
Email: rietema.m@gravity-sports.com
Website: www.igsaworldcup.com

Jani Soderhall
ISSA President 2011-2020
ISSA President 2011-2020
Posts: 4130
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Sweden, lives in France
Contact:

Post by Jani Soderhall » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:51 pm

World Cup is currently used by individual organizers in the way described. Typically these events are of Main status. The Major status is assigned to one event on each continent per year. That should be the biggest event on that continent that year.

World Cup right now is not controlled, or authorized in any way, but it seems to have worked out quite fine so far. Typically World Cups are assigned Main status, but there have been a few exceptions (very few probably).

Additional info: In the ranking, a person can only count 1 Major. That is not to give anyone an unfair advantage by just showing up at a second Major. The second Major will then count as a Main.

A solution to be in line with your simplification could be to say that the World Cup name is only authorized if the event is a Main.

Major could remain a small technicality (of no promotional value). These events typically market themselves otherwise. It is obvious to everyone that the World Championship is the biggest and most prestigious event of the year. It's more difficult to decide what to do with the other "Major". But in Europe it's most of the European Championships.

/Jani

Marcus Rietema
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:16 am
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
Contact:

Post by Marcus Rietema » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:38 pm

I was unaware that only one "Major" can be counted toward each person's ranking. I think assigning "World Cup" status by the ISSA to the one or two biggest events on each continent every year would be an excellent basis for starting a "World Cup Series". It shouldn't be up to organizers if they want to call their event "World Cup". These designations should be assigned by the ISSA. I think organizing the events as an international series would be a great benefit to the sport.

My recommendation is:

World Championship (1 per year) = Single event with the highest number of points awarded.
World Cup (1-2 per continent) = Big events that are second only to the World Championship in terms of prestige and points awarded equal to World Championship.

In my opinion the World Championship and World Cups should award the equal number of points so that opportunities to obtain ranking points are more equally distributed throughout the world. Getting the opportunity to earn the title of ISSA World Champion should be enough incentive without having to offer additional points.
Marcus Rietema
President- International Gravity Sports Association
Phone: 951-532-6378
Email: rietema.m@gravity-sports.com
Website: www.igsaworldcup.com

Pat Chewning
Pat C.
Pat C.
Posts: 1400
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Portland Oregon

Post by Pat Chewning » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:39 pm

I agree that an ISSA designation of "World Cup" to a select few races would be more marketable and would add prestige to those races for racers, sponsors, media, etc.

The "World Cup" series (sum of points in World Cup events) would then really mean something and could be attached to a prize.

This might diminish the value of the "main" or other lesser races, since those would not count at all for the "World Cup" (but would still count for ranking-- I assume).

I like the idea. The result is 6 or so BIG events that count for an overall prize (assuming a sponsor can be found for this).

Marcus: Are you proposing this for 2009? (Since no 2009 events have been assigned status yet)

Toby Warg
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:43 pm
Location: Umeå, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Toby Warg » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:02 pm

Don't fall in the IGSA trap if this is proposed.

The IGSA has Regionals, Nationals, Continentals and World Cup events, but calls the series "World Cup Series". Very confusing since all events count in the World Cup Series.

Marcus Rietema
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:16 am
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
Contact:

Post by Marcus Rietema » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:05 pm

Pat Chewning wrote:I agree that an ISSA designation of "World Cup" to a select few races would be more marketable and would add prestige to those races for racers, sponsors, media, etc.

The "World Cup" series (sum of points in World Cup events) would then really mean something and could be attached to a prize.

This might diminish the value of the "main" or other lesser races, since those would not count at all for the "World Cup" (but would still count for ranking-- I assume).

I like the idea. The result is 6 or so BIG events that count for an overall prize (assuming a sponsor can be found for this).

Marcus: Are you proposing this for 2009? (Since no 2009 events have been assigned status yet)
I think we should look at doing it in 2009 if possible. We're really late in the game with everything but why not??? How about if we just replaced the Main's with World Cups. Lesser events could still count towards a riders World Cup ranking but of course the World Cup races would be the most desirable since they offer the most points. Even if we can't find a sponsor it would be good to do it this year with an eye on 2010.
Last edited by Marcus Rietema on Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Marcus Rietema
President- International Gravity Sports Association
Phone: 951-532-6378
Email: rietema.m@gravity-sports.com
Website: www.igsaworldcup.com

Marcus Rietema
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:16 am
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
Contact:

Post by Marcus Rietema » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:08 pm

Toby Warg wrote:Don't fall in the IGSA trap if this is proposed.

The IGSA has Regionals, Nationals, Continentals and World Cup events, but calls the series "World Cup Series". Very confusing since all events count in the World Cup Series.
Why is this a trap? Do you think it would be better to keep all the different points events separate?
Marcus Rietema
President- International Gravity Sports Association
Phone: 951-532-6378
Email: rietema.m@gravity-sports.com
Website: www.igsaworldcup.com

Toby Warg
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 4:43 pm
Location: Umeå, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Toby Warg » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:25 am

Marcus Rietema wrote:
Toby Warg wrote:Don't fall in the IGSA trap if this is proposed.

The IGSA has Regionals, Nationals, Continentals and World Cup events, but calls the series "World Cup Series". Very confusing since all events count in the World Cup Series.
Why is this a trap? Do you think it would be better to keep all the different points events separate?
I think that all races should be called World Cup events if they belong to the World Cup.
I think that you need another name for the major races and perhaps another cup altogether for those races.
It's the mixing of names I call a "trap", perhaps the wrong word, but it can be a jungle to outsiders with these names.

Jani Soderhall
ISSA President 2011-2020
ISSA President 2011-2020
Posts: 4130
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Sweden, lives in France
Contact:

Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:46 am

To me it seems we're leaning in this direction:

- Don't let event organizers use the World Cup name freely
- All World Cup events will be of Main status
- Rename Main to World Cup
- Calculate the sum of all world cup results, to designate a series winner

/Jani

Stefano Bellingeri
Stefano
Stefano
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:45 pm
Location: Turin (Italy)

Post by Stefano Bellingeri » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:07 pm

Dear Jani,
I did not read it until now: it is exactly what I meant in the other post. I agree with you and Marcus
So we have to do it.
Stefano
Stefano Bellingeri
Skype: bellingerismu

Guillaume Saint-Criq
Posts: 549
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:53 pm
Location: Tarbes (65), FRANCE
Contact:

Post by Guillaume Saint-Criq » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:17 pm

my ideas, just a reflexion...

I think actual system is good, we just need to change sanction names and change the number of sanction awarded ...

1/ main events become "world cup"

2/ 1 major per continent
=> Euro Championship
=> North Am Champ
=> South Am Champ
=> Pacific champ

every year, one of this event is sanctionned as World Champ
Points awarded must be the same, World Champ or not... World Champ sanction just give you the honorific title

So this year, North Am champ would be also the World Champ (organizers will have to set two seperate ranking for their event : one with all racers designating World Champ, other with NA racers, designating NA Champ)

3/I think we need LESS world cup sanction, maybe one per continent : this will motivate best riders from each continents to travel all around the world
Then, we will have 1 major + 1 WC in each continent : this can form the "WC series"

Note that if you include all WC and major events in this "WC series" ranking, final standings will be the same as it is in the actual system "year ranking"

And it will give value to Prime events...

Then we can build something like :
=>"Euro series" including all events in europe
=>"North Am series" including all events in NA
etc etc



and maybe with all of that, we don't need anymore the PRO/AM split !!!



Good luck to the board!


PS : I hope my english is not so bad :D

Rick Floyd
Pink Floyd Skates
Pink Floyd Skates
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:39 pm
Location: Six foot two above sea level.

Post by Rick Floyd » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:48 pm

One point I think is important - if we are going to make things more official, and more imortantly marketable; and that is to require the use of ISSA divisons (Pro / Am / Masters)or whatever they end up being called, in any race given MAIN (or whatever this ends up being called) status or above. Using an A/B/C split based on qualifying in an organized series is confusing to media and people unfamiliar with the sport.

-RF
"All the money in the world can not buy sharing the excitement of life with other people. Nothing else matters."

- Jason Mitchell (Criddlezine Interview)

Jani Soderhall
ISSA President 2011-2020
ISSA President 2011-2020
Posts: 4130
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Sweden, lives in France
Contact:

Post by Jani Soderhall » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:06 pm

The A/B/C class system seems to be a good system to give the participants value for their money in terms of racing. That's good in a smaller size event. World Cup's should have a more traditional system such as Pro/Am/Women/Juniors.

/Jani

Rick Floyd
Pink Floyd Skates
Pink Floyd Skates
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:39 pm
Location: Six foot two above sea level.

Post by Rick Floyd » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:45 pm

I'm not saying don't EVER use A/B/C. It's OK for races with fewer competitors.

"I feel using an A/B/C split based on qualifying in an organized series is confusing to media and people unfamiliar with the sport."

I think Jani and I are in agreement, but the core point I wanted to state is still to...

"...require the use of ISSA divisons (Pro / Am / Masters)or whatever they end up being called, in any race given MAIN (or whatever this ends up being called) status or above. "
"All the money in the world can not buy sharing the excitement of life with other people. Nothing else matters."

- Jason Mitchell (Criddlezine Interview)

Hans Koraeus
Corky - World Ranking Master Mind
Corky - World Ranking Master Mind
Posts: 1903
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:59 am

Since I started the World Ranking in 2003 I have always had the World cup as an option in front of me. For me it has been quite clear how to do it but I preferred working on the World Ranking idea that was aimed for all the slalom racers more than the World Cup that is aimed for a smaller group. The World Cup idea is not a bad thing but it has some complications.

And frankly, we have not been ready for it. I know many (European) events have made use of the name World Cup since a long time already even though this so far has been a big lie because there have never been a World Cup. Not a very responsible use of the name in most all cases. Yes it might be a way of making it sound good for any potential sponsors ahead of the event. But in the end what about what they get? What about what image it gives for the slalom world? I have seen people in so called World Cups being real beginners. People can't even go down the start ramp. If I would come to a World Cup event and saw that I would think the skateboard slalom was a joke. Also if coming to some of the events calling themselves a World Cup. I think ISSA should forbid the use of World Cup in events that can not live up to it. And event better until the day we really have a World Cup.

When thinking about a World Cup I think:

PRO
Worldwide
Big sponsor/prize money
High level
Strong Association
All equal status
All events counts

Pros
The slalom scene has been a very social scene so far. It has been really nice but sooner or later if the slalom scene will grow where we want to have it our social events like we have now may exist as a low level base but the real thing is the World Cup. And for the World Cup you can only qualify if you are good enough. Two different worlds. Are we ready for that World Cup world yet?
Worldwide
The big regions so far has been Europe and North America. A world cup could be done with this "world" but it sure would make more sence if the slalom scene was spread over the world a little bit more. South America and Australia is looking promising for the future. But are those regions ready for World Cup events. I would like to see big events supported from the underground with more events/races before we start talking about World Cup and Major events.
Big sponsor/prize money
Worldwide=Expensive. For the racers who want to travel World wide, it will demand more of a travel budget. Either for the sponsor to help the best coming and give out money as prizes. Or for the racers themselves to take the budget. Either way it will only concern the very best, those with a think wallet and much time to spend. Are the slalom racers/scene ready for that yet? We would need a big sponsor(s) to support such a mission. Built up on a media channel connection.
High level
Again, this is for me a high level PRO project. Nothing wrong with that and there is where we are going if we succeed with promoting slalom skateboard. No low level AMs are welcome. Are we ready?
Strong Association
A World cup apart from strong sponsorship needs a strong association behind it. With clear rules and goals of how to race. And a big group of followers and fans. I.e. are we big enough? Are we ready? I mean, we the core group, does not event pay yearly fees for building up our association with a budget to be able to do things. And how many wants to put much of their leisure time for building up that association?
No status
Nothing to worry about. All events counts the same.
There has been talk about statuses but that is not used normally in World Cups. Either you are a world cup and you are in. Or you are not a World Cup and you don't count. At least for the World Cup view of things.
All events count
From scratch each season (does not have to be calendar year).
A problem when the scene is small and money to earn is small is that normally all events count. And if you want to have a couple of events around the world how many will be able to make them all. And even if you have just a few it will be hard because you want to spread them around the world.
This could be solved like the ranking that you count only lets say 4 of 6 events for example. 1 South America, 2 North America, 2 Europe, 1 Australia. Then everybody needs to make at least 3 long trips to get those minimum 4 events.


Until we have positive views on most of the topics above maybe we are better off waiting... Whatever we decide to do we will have the World Ranking running. And what difference will the World Cup be from the 1-Year ranking. It would be interesting to make such a calculation with the results from past years and imagine a World Cup with 6 events as explained above. Even though you might need to skip South America and Australia and count top 3 events in North America and Europe. Hmm, I already get a strong hint it will look just like the 1 Year World Rankings. But wait a minute!

ISSA WORLD CUP

The positive touch to it all is that we do have a World Cup already. And have had so since 2003. We have just forgotten to select the top 2 Main status events from North America and Europe. Because the 2 Majors are in there already.

So maybe we should stop talking about creating a world cup and instead make visible the hidden World Cup already existing by:
1.
Select top 2 Main events from 2003 to 2008
2.
Calculate all the events with Main points
3.
Voila! We have a world cup that has been ongoing since 2003. Now lets get some sponsors for this things in the future. And let's get Australia and South America into the game when they are ready.

Locked