2007 Discussion is open - [and closed!]

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

Here are the old ISSA rules.

The General Rules have a "GR" in front of the number.
The Giant Slalom Rules have a "GSR" in front of the number.
The Special Slalom Rules have a "SSR" in front of the number.
The Straight Parallel Slalom Rules have a "SPSR" in front of the number.


I will edit your comments and inputs as fallow:

green for additions

red for points which should be deleted


If you want to add a new rule. please do it in this topic here. I will move it into the list.

the discussion is open

/J-Rad

Ed note. This discussion has now been replaced by the 2008 rules discussion. Oct 2007 /Jani

[Claude Regnier]

J-Rad! Thanks for seperating this all up to disect indepentdantly.

Everyone please be advised that we are tyring to make appropriate changes before the end of November maybe mid Dec at the latest.

Note**** Please don't say that it's too short of notice as most of this has been accessible for a long time to ponder your concerns and dislikes.

[Pat Chewning]

Many of these rules should be trimmed down in the following manner:

A) Rules about administration, reporting results, accomodation, etc. -- these should be separated out of the RACING rules. They apply to the event organizer and not to the racers. These items probably belong in the EVENT SANCTIONING documents -- to guide the race organizers as to what is expected of them beyond running a race by the RACING RULES.

B) General RACING RULES rules section should be at the beginning of the document and should apply to ALL disciplines without repetition. (e.g. Safety gear, size of cones, ramps, etc. etc. -- things that all slalom races have in common)

C) Dicipline-specific RACING rules (Straight slalom, special, GS, etc) should be very short and ONLY outline the specific items that apply to that dicipline (e.g. cone spacing, hill pitch, cones in a straight line or not, etc)

[Pat Chewning]

Things that may need rules added:

How the qualifying times are used to seed racers into brackets?
A) single-best qualifying time of 2 runs?
B) sum of 2 runs?

How are DQ's handled?
A) during qualifying
B) during head-to-head runs


How are racer's placings determined for those being eliminated in the same head-to-head rounds? (I suggest METHOD B under this discussion: viewtopic.php?t=3354)

Some of this is spelled out in the existing rules under "COMPETITION", but it is not consistent from discipline to discipline. In fact, I was surprised to see that the SSR-5 rules do not provide for any head-to-head racing!

We also need to allow some lattitude for the organizer to select the # of racers advancing to each bracket. Some of the existing rules spell out specifically that this should be done in groups of 16 or 8 ... yet modern slalom races today have brackets of 24, A,B,C brackets, etc.

[Wesley Tucker]

By the by,

Can everyone view this and vote or is subscription limited to ISSA members?

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

Wes: Now it's possible to view for all, not only for members.

It will be good to let it open for all now.

When the decission making process is described and the rules accepted than we can decide to move it to the Members-Only Forum.

PAT: I will order the rules in the way you explained. In the next few day's.

/J-Rad

[Ramón Königshausen]

Are the discussions over now or are you all sick and tired of discussing?

rmn

[Ramón Königshausen]

Discussion is dead.


rmn

[Pat Chewning]

So we had discussions. Then JRAD moved on to do the ESRT thing, with their own rules. So what needs to happen now with the ISSA rules update, and who is going to do it, using what process?

I suggest that "someone" take the discussion and perhaps the ESRT rules (which are somewhat of an outgrowth of the ISSA older rules and this discussion), and write a proposed set of new rules for ISSA that we can do a final discussion on, then a vote (of members, or of the ISSA Board of Directors?).

We probably shouldn't just let this slide much longer.

Who has the energy and expertise to do this?

[Claude Regnier]

I personally do not have the time now or any time soon. The new sk8park and the coaching program will take up 95% of my time this year and that only leaves me limited time for anything else.

I know Corky has been quite busy with stuff as well.

If I can do anything I will but it will be very limited.

[Jani Soderhall]

Let JRad do it. (please JRAD) I see no contradiction with the ESRT thing as long as we're all using the same rules. How else is it all going to work?

I personally like the idea of a European Series. It's just another way to combine points from several events. It's different to the world ranking in that only a few of the European Events counts. We've often had series like that before, and it would be good to have a similar US series.

BUT, we need to have ONE set of rules to avoid confusion.

I feel strongly for this point too, but I can't set aside the time. But I'll do my best to follow the discussions, participate, and do admin tasks if necessary. I think it would be better if someone in the board leads the discussion. I think this is probably the highest priority task for the ISSA BoD right now. Alternative 2: Pat.

/Jani

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

I put the rules together. I don't want separate rules for the Tour.
The new rules have a diffrent structure, than this here.

I can put the new structure here on this discussion Forum to have a discussion about the first version of the rules.

Some things which are double in this Forum are erased in the new ruul's.

I will try to put it on this evening. I had now just an input form Marcus Seyyfarth about the start methode, allowed training.

I can do the moderation here, but i would like to get settled dates by the ISSA, how long we will discuss and when the deadline is to prepare the rules for voting.

The best thing will be, to contact all members by a mass email when i set the rules ready to discuss. In this email should the deadline be.

I made a vision paper and a strategic document for the ESRT. In the next two weeks i will be ready to get in contact with swatch about timing partner. I know that not all like the idea of an European Tour but in my view it is a way to speak with one voice and get benefits for the participants and the event-organisators. It will be good to work together not against each other. We all work for the same thing and i think we all want to reach the same. I have the time and the skills to do the paper work by my own. I informed the event organisers from step to step and until now i didn't heard anything bad. I think this is a faster way to work and reach somthing. Every organiser have the chance to make a comment and to discuss the things. As long there are no inputs, the organisers agreed on the points. I don't want to conncurence the ISSA. It is one event, one rules, two diffrent ranking systems. And the possibility to speak with one voice here in Europe.

J-Rad

[Jani Soderhall]

If we can get those new rules together before the race season starts we can trial those during this year. I think the organizers of all the high level Euro races in 2007 could agree and should agree to all use the same rules. If those main organizers don't agree the rules are not good enough.

Let's try the same with those who are candidates for Main/Majors in US.

We may have to be open for adaptation during the year.

/Jani

[Pat Chewning]

How about this:


1) An ISSA rules update document proposal by 03FEB2007 (JRAD)

2) A comment period by entire membership from 03FEB2007 to 15FEB2007 (new topic area of proposed ISSA rule update based on THIS specific written rule set).
A) Comments must state the specific rule section being commented on.
B) Comments must propose an alternate wording of the rule.
C) JRAD can choose among those comments to include/exclude from the rules, based on his judgement of the consensus of the discussion, but must let us know by 15FEB2007 which proposals are in/out of the rules.

3) Any rule item that an ISSA BOD member deems to be of such importance for change/voting will be set up by that BOD member as a voting line-item (WAS/IS proposal for new wording) and voted on in the following schedule:
A) Write proposed new rule wording and set up voting by 17FEB2007 (voting by BOD members)
B) Vote closes 24FEB2007


4) Final update to the ISSA rules : 04MARCH2007

5) Emergency rule updates throughout the year as voted on by ISSA BOD (members can ask a BOD member to propose any emergency updates). BOD member will write WAS/IS rule proposal and set up 1-week voting on the rule change proposal.

6) Yearly rule updates on the following schedule:
A) Members can propose rule updates at any time. (Specific WAS/IS rule proposal)
B) October 31 of each year, the proposals are collected and discussion area set forth
B) December of each year, the discussion is closed and voting takes place. (by ISSA members), ending December 31st
C) January 31 any new rule updates are published.

[Wesley Tucker]

ATTENTION!

I do hope everyone realizes the rules revision process and commentary on the rules is open to the public. We do appreciate everyone's input and commentary

HOWEVER,

The rules revision vote will be restricted to ISSA Members only. The ISSA Race Rules are a product of the ISSA and its membership.

No, it doesn't mean the ISSA will be dictating anything. As at any time anyone can join and participate in the process.

What it does mean, though, is anyone who wants to acquire a sanctioning from the ISSA (and thus qualify for world ranking points) must adhere to the published rules.

It is not some sort of dictatorship. Race organizers and racers can opt out at anytime and do their own thing.

Again, though, if YOU want a voice in the process you must be a member of the ISSA.

Thanks.

[Jani Soderhall]

This whole discussion never ended up with a concrete set of rules for the 2007 season. Instead Steve Collins and Pat Chewning teamed up to write an entirely new proposal for the 2008 season.

We have now closed down this older discussion to avoid any misunderstandings.

/Jani