5-second-warning....

[Chris Eggers]

This is something I wanted to bring up since a long time..........who made this thing up?
(For all the racers who don´t know what I am talking about: Since a certain time this is the start signal: Racers ready?.....five second warning..............after a certain time span only the starter knows, the gates swing open and the timer starts)

Whos idea was it to warn me about something....what does he/she warns me about? That I have to skate? That the timer starts shortly?
I don´t know and I don´´t like it.

A lot of times, the starter just came to: racers ready, five seconds wa....and the gate was open...........hey whats going on?

I really liked the FCR start signal: 3 short beeps, one long beep, on the long beep the gates opened.
Can´t we find something like that?

Like in track and field, there is a acoustic (shoot) signal.
It is really hard to concentrate on the first cones AND the gates.

Does someone feel like I do or am I alone with that?
If so, I will shut up immediately....

Does someone have a better idea?

[Pat Chewning]

Old discussion of start methods is here:

viewtopic.php?t=1776


Example of start tones used in many races is here:
http://home.comcast.net/~pchewn/Chronoc ... sounds.wav


Imagine how upset you would be if the timer started and you were NOT ready.... I think that is why the start official asks you if you are ready -- to give you the chance to say "NO", and then let you adjust your pads, or whatever....

-- Pat

[Wesley Tucker]

When I start a race I'm a jerk. I ask, "Racers ready?" and I wait for an answer. No one gets to be "cool" or "punk" and stand there ignoring me. If I don't hear two "Yes!"'s, then I don't start the race. It sometimes takes a couple of rounds of racers standing on the start line with their face hanging out before they get the idea.

As far as the "five second warning," that must be some European thing. I've never heard of it. With the advent of Trak Mate 4.0, we've had a "four-tone start" that also measures reaction times and records false starts. Before that, the starts were usually pretty much standard with "Racers on your mark, get set, go!" My only experience with gates was the Worlds in 2002. That had an accompanying tone, so the start was no issue.

[Ramón Königshausen]

This signal comes from the Burning Wheels Tour (which has a lot in common with Snowboardercrossracing...so it might originally come from there).
In this mode up to 4 racers have to compete against each other on an obstacle run.
It seems to make sence that none of the riders knows when he has to start and so the reaction time becomes also more important for your racing....


got it?


rmn

[Wesley Tucker]

I never said I didn't "get it." I said I never heard of it and it must be a European thing.

Got it?

[Ramón Königshausen]

Well, it wasn't meant to you...and yes, it's a European thing...


rmn

[Jani Soderhall]

It seems to make sense that none of the riders knows when he has to start and so the reaction time becomes also more important for your racing....

The system would be ok if it was really random, but a random period between 0-5 seconds is pretty likely to end up between 3-5 and as far as I can remember it was all the time the same. The experienced skaters knew when to pull, thus anticipating the "signal". To do this method properly we need a computer that gives a "5 seconds warning" and then waits two seconds, then applies the random time from 0-5. That is more likely to be a random value that can't be guessed in advance and that'll oblige you to wait until you hear the signal before pulling off.

I think the current Trakmate system is a good alternative though. Of course people can anticipate, but there is a risk of false start if you pull too early.

By the way, I have asked Daniel at Trakmate to add a false start signal. (I personally don't believe in the "calculation method" where you use the false start period to add a time penalty (the only advantage it has is that you don't have to re-start a false start round).

/Jani

[Jonathan Harms]

For the last few years, most races in the USA--most ramp-start races at least--have used the "beep" method of starting. One notable exception was the 2004 West Virginia race (a push-start race) at which Dave Gale gave the racers a "Racers Ready!" signal and then said "Go!" sometime within five seconds after that. As Jani said, in most cases that meant three to five seconds after--not exactly random. (Wesley, you took a pretty good fall at that race, so maybe you don't remember it.) Actually, last year's Slalom St. Louis (also a push-start race) used a similar system, although the five-second interval was never explicitly mentioned.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the "beep" method. It's a little odd compared to most other sports' starting methods (see below), but it works. And actually, I think the "double your false start" penalty is a pretty clever idea, precisely because, as Jani said, you don't have to redo a race in which somebody started too early.

Now, that raises the question again of whether a false start should be considered a DQ. Frankly, I don't care that much one way or the other. Every method has its advantages and disadvantages.

Can other sports provide a good model? I don't know enough about them to say. Off the top of my head, though, here's what I think I know:

Track & field: Most sprint races (i.e. races short enough that starting early gives an unfair advantage) use a random start signal similar to what Chris mentioned: Once all racers are in their starting blocks, they are given a "Ready" signal. The actual start can come any time after that--usually between one and three seconds, in my memory (I've watched a lot of races on TV). They allow one false start without disqualification; it's charged to the entire GROUP of racers. If someone false-starts the second race, that person only is DQ'ed (even if s/he is NOT the one who committed the first false start).

Swimming: I think (?) they use a similar system to track & field: "Ready," then the gun or beep goes off at a non-predictable time (again, seemingly usually within one to three seconds). If someone false-starts, I think it's always just the individual who's charged. Each person, theoretically, gets one false start without being DQ'ed. The second one for that person results in a DQ.

Snowboarding and/or skiing: I'm sure many of you know more about that than I do. But I think that false-starting is almost a non-issue, at least in multi-racer (2 or more) events, because they use some sort of gate system to prevent it.

Motocross/BMX: Racers get a "ready" signal, and then the gate drops at some random interval. Again, no false starts because the gate prevents it.

All of those methods are interesting. But most of the time, they have more than two racers going head-to-head. So perhaps the closest "other sport" analogy is drag racing (and no, I don't mean Henry J in a dress). You have two racers on two (theoretically) identical courses. Faster time wins. False start is a DQ--no second chances allowed. They use a set of vertically arranged lights called a "Christmas tree" (three amber lights above a green light (for GO) at the bottom (and a red light below that). Once both racers are ready, the start signal comes at some random interval afterward, at which point the lights go on from top to bottom in very short intervals. When green is lit, it's go time. It's not quite a random start, but the light sequence is much quicker than the slalom "beep" system. See http://www.nhra.com/streetlegal/whatisadragrace.html

FULL TREE: Used in Competition, Stock, and Super Stock, for which a handicap starting system is used to equalize competition. The three amber bulbs on the Christmas Tree flash consecutively five-tenths of a second apart, followed five-tenths later by the green starting light. A perfect reaction time on a full Tree is .000.

PRE-STAGE INDICATOR LIGHTS: Yellow bulbs warn drivers that they are approaching the startling line and the “staged” position.

STAGE INDICATOR LIGHTS: Signal drivers that they are on the starting line ready for a run. These yellow bulbs come on when the front wheels of a race car interrupt the beam from a light source to the photo cells. These same photo cells start the timing equipment.

THREE-AMBER STARTING SYSTEM: All three amber floodlights in a driver’s lane flash simultaneously before the green light comes on. This is called a “Pro start” system. Racers running in handicap categories get a countdown of one amber light at a time until the green light comes on. The Pro start system runs with a .4-second difference between amber and green lights, while the handicap system runs with a .5-second difference between bulbs.

GREEN LIGHT: This is the one that makes it happen. Once the green light is flashed, the driver in that lane is free to make a run. Any time a green light is shown in a driver’s lane it indicates that a fair start was accomplished.

RED LIGHT: When a car leaves the starting line before the green light comes on, or, in some cases, is staged too deeply into the staging beams, the red light will flash in that lane. It indicates the driver in that lane has been disqualified. During competition, only one red light will illuminate, thus eliminating only the first offender.

On the older discussion mentioned by Pat viewtopic.php?t=1776

someone argued that we should keep this as simple as possible at races. I agree. Most races are either push-start or ramp start without gates. I think either the "beep" method or the "random/surprise" start method is OK. As TK wrote, at some point you're just going to have to deal with it. If you get smoked, then practice!

I especially like what Jack Q wrote in that previous discussion:

My humble vote...

Left Racer Ready?
(yes)
Right Racer Ready?
(yes)

Random beep/shot whatever.

Timer starts, racers go (if they choose to.)

False start DQs. (or has proportional penalty) jbh comment: to be decided (and publicized) by the race organizers

If you wanna chase rabbits, you gotta pay the price.

No closing to the "window"... too complicated.
When the window opens, you go (assuming you choose to, and know what you are up to if you don't).
If you go before the window opens you gotta pay...

Q

[John Gilmour]

I have always believed that the differences in hundreths at a start far outweighs the differences through the course sometimes before the quarter finals- again I point to Lacosta 2002 (where many people ran similar wheels) the competitors in the 32 bracket were all within .2 sec in qualifying (Which had no reaction time).

Now we are faster and better...and closer..there are even more ties now. It is normal to expect that. So again I worry about too much emphasis on the start.

I would rather see a giant needle progressing to the start. I think you see better racing when the competitors are closer together... as opposed to one guy who blew his start. It also is much more friendly to newer entrants who typically have a hard time getting used to our beep cadence.. TK had at least two years of slow racing due to starts before he got used to the cadence - I remember how disappointed he was after some starts as he knew he had lost before he even reached the first cone.

Racers should be able to practice at home and adapt without too much difficulty to our racing procedures (YES OR NO?). I say Yes.

I don't think it is fair to have some guy fly half way around the world just to be defeated by a beep. I can't see it being good for our sport. The ramps can make it hard enough as they are often not something sonone has at home- why add the extra beep difficulty that has nothing to do with being a good skateboarder?

just my .02 cents