Ramp use req. for women, juniors or not?

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John Gilmour
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Ramp use req. for women, juniors or not?

Post by John Gilmour » Sat May 22, 2004 6:24 pm

I would expect that most women and Juniors that have already used the ramps would say it is not big deal. I am wondering if we are possibly losing some people because of apprehension over the ramps.

Should these classes not use a ramp start, but start beside the ramp?

I've ridden lots of skateparks and rode for the East Coast Kryptonics team back in the 1970's. I've ridden slalom decks on park situations prior to using slalom starting ramps. However, I remember wishing prior to going to Europe to race that they would not use ramps- mostly for concern that I would not be able to get my footing correct should it move prior to the first cone. AS it turned out- I never felt as balanced with ramp starts as I did with push starts and felt relieved racing in 1995 at the Verrieres Open in France. It was a GS race with a short 2 push limited push.

I'm happy to race with ramp starts, steam catapult starts, bicycle tow ins- but even now...with my push start likely to never be nearly as fast...I would still prefer push starts.

I think we would have more participants at races- particularly more novice skaters- and Mom's and kids skating- if ramps were not used for their divisions. I'm happy that we have some that feel comfortable but I can't help thinking that we would have more.
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Post by Jeff Goad » Sat May 22, 2004 9:47 pm

do we really need to soften the sport for ladies and kids. we are skateboarders not slalomboarders.

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Post by Dan Mitchell » Sat May 22, 2004 10:50 pm

At last years Red Clay Cup, using the ramps was optional, and
several racers started beside them.
Actually, if the ramps were far enough from the first cone, a
strong pusher could have an advantage.

Hmmmm........
Dan Mitchell, aka PA Dan

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Post by Terry Kirby » Sat May 22, 2004 11:20 pm

The ramp can be a learned skill. Even Sandy who never stepped on a skateboard before she started slaloming jumped right up on the ramps and learned at La Costa 01.

Ramps are not the reason for slow growth in slalom. Slalom is the reason for slow growth in slalom.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun May 23, 2004 2:00 am

Dan Mitchell wrote:At last years Red Clay Cup, using the ramps was optional, and several racers started beside them. Actually, if the ramps were far enough from the first cone, a strong pusher could have an advantage.

Hmmmm........
Yeah, right. That's what I thought. And Eric Moore blew past me like I was standing still.

One of these days I'm going to figure it out . . . but not today. At Morro Bay I compromised and rode a surf stance and failed to qualify. (I still beat Geoge G, but that's another story. Watch the video :-) ) At Jaw Ja I pushed off and was blown out by a fast ramp starter. And watching Damnarino, Parsons and Byrddog literally rip the wood apart pulling out of the gate was even more discouraging.

Although Dan I have to agree with you on one point: at Red Clay the first cone was probably less than ten feet from the end of the ramp. It made for a VERY SHORT push start.

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Okay...if Sandy can do it.

Post by John Gilmour » Sun May 23, 2004 2:36 am

Sandy is such a wimp, frail, nervous little thing...(sarcasm)
what was the other sport she liked....Oh yeah...I remember now, competitive body building. She won a trophy for that...am I right? Didn't she go through about 36 hours of labor with no painkillers before she decided it was enough?

Sandy is the exception...not the rule. I think she took to paragliding better than most people would.

I'm talking about getting women who just decided to do a little longboarding...and are hooked, but have no interest in pools.

I've seen what having a few attractive women going through cones does for participation rates...first hand at the slalom courses I ran..
One good turn deserves another
john gilmour

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Post by Dave Gale » Sun May 23, 2004 11:48 am

Rest assured John..M.S.S.S is still planning on a push start! But with a more liberal "unlimited" 30' or so run-in frame! I think the time and $ spent on setting up ramps detracts from the time and pleasure of a good race!
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Sun May 23, 2004 12:29 pm

In Antibes last year some skaters were allowed to start next to the ramp.

Depending on the timing system that could be allowed or not. If the timing system is attached to the ramp it would be more difficult to allow it.

For Paris 2004 I'd accept a push start from those who request it if they have a good enough reason. With the timing equipment up on the ramp, we'll have to improvise and have somebody trigger it manually as the skater starts.

Although I've always practised push starts (except in the late 70's and early 80's) I still prefer ramp starts for the competitions. It looks so much better and adds to the feeling that this is it! The riders are up on the ramp, all eyes are turned towards them. Bip, bip, bip, Beep! The two racers head down the ramp and into the course. There's nothing like it for the audience, but more importantly for ourselves!

/Jani

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Post by Dave Gale » Sun May 23, 2004 12:42 pm

Jani,
You make the ramps sound like.... podiums! I always thought they were kept for after the race! I only speak for M.S.S.S of which 1200.00 U.S.D went toward traffic control, and as many witnessed, the cops wanted us to start tearing down before the finals because I had until 5:00 to clear the road for traffic! Given that ..an hour of racing (which is a lot) could be spent assembling/disassembling bitching etc... on a hill ! A ramp is a nice touch, but a hill is the feel!
ENJOY!! (while you can)

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Sun May 23, 2004 1:01 pm

Well, I haven't been to many races without start ramps in my recent slalom history. Except for Eastbourne in 2002, I think the last time was in 1990.

I have a hard time considering a head to race without ramps.

But, if we could encourage more juniors and women to participate I'd happily let them all skate without the ramps.

Personally though I'd rather start on the ramp.

/Jani

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Post by Jeff Goad » Sun May 23, 2004 4:22 pm

Jani Soderhall wrote:I have a hard time considering a head to race without ramps.
/Jani
spoiled

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Post by Dave Gale » Sun May 23, 2004 6:07 pm

"SPOILED " Aint quite the word that I think describes it..maybe, "Tunnel Visioned" many racers prefer to take a non ramp condusive stance (parallel/or modified) and ramp starts put them to a HUGE dis-advantage.
In a perfect world, all racers pro/am/male/female/youth/surf/parallel can run the same course, but the faster wins! Not judged by the way they are "forced" to enter the course!! W/ an unlimited push start (given ample room) you could enter slowly and make the course, or you could push aggressively and attack the course, tear it up and WIN! Just my .02 worth
ENJOY!! (while you can)

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun May 23, 2004 8:15 pm

At the Swedish Championships last year we had built the start ramps the day before. They got a little bit steeper than wanted and was a little bit too scary for some. Most still used the ramps but 1 or 2 persons were allowed to start on the side instead. We just put down the start strip on the ground in these cases. Worked fine even though you got less speed starting on the ground. This was not a problem in our case since these racers also preferred lower speed.

I also prefer start ramps in competitions. That doesn't mean I'm spoiled or "tunnel visioned". It's just that I prefer it. I wouldn't complain if there where competitions without. I would like to know in advance though. We have run cyber slalom all winter with push start. Most of our practice sessions are without start ramp. But we all long for start ramps. Because of practical reasons this is not always possible. I can understand this for organizers as well. But if it's possible I think it looks better, gives better competition feeling, greater chance that you get your feet correctly on your board and you don't get so tired (i.e. more energy for slalom).

On the Wednesday cup (with 8 competitions) in Stockholm this summer the 161 team has built a small ramp that is easy to bring along in the car and put together on the spot. It's not very big and a perfect first step for beginners to try a start ramp. I will put up a photo of it after next Wednesday race.

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Post by Eddy Martinez » Mon May 24, 2004 1:02 am

I also was terrified of the start ramps the first time I saw them. Ricky Byrd was kind enough to let me push start at the bottom of the ramp at LSJ 2003. 66 at the Red Clay race also allowed push starts last year. Marcos Soulsby Monroy and Keith Hollien encouraged me to build my own start ramp last year. I built one exactly like Rickys. Problem solved. Even though when I first tested my ramp I had a pillow stuffed in the front of my shirt and one in the back, and a small sofa cussion in the back of my shorts. Protection you know. And yes that picture has been destroyed. Eddy Texas Outlaws.

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Post by Jeff Goad » Mon May 24, 2004 1:30 am

hans,
don’t twist what I said.
I also prefer start ramps in competitions and I have a hard time considering a head to race without ramps are two different things.
I would only say something like your spoiled if you base a race on if they had ramps or not.
And I don’t think spoiled is the right word, I like silly better and just to let you know I prefer a ramp start.

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Post by Dave Gale » Mon May 24, 2004 3:52 am

God!....Goad,
I just found out I "bought" a pink t from "66" for a bucksitysics!!!!!!!!!!!
ENJOY!! (while you can)

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Post by Christopher Bara » Mon May 24, 2004 9:45 pm

Ramps suck
This whole topic cracks me up.
Slaloming is pure skateboarding....It's all about setting up the natural terrain into a challenging course and putting out everything you've got.
If you want to ride ramps, that's fine.....go to the skatepark or your skatebro's backyard and do that.....
Do they keep people from the sport?...of course!.....and i'm sorry, but if you dont agree, then you've either have to get out more and talk to newer slalomers....or youre ignorant.
Unless you HAVE a ramp...or you compete on a ramp all the time, you probably have little practice using one....you may be able to pump like a pro, cut cones, handle slides, accelerate, etc.,....but most of that wont matter if your not experienced with ramp starting.....they totally change the playing field. .... you'd be at an automatic disadvantage to somebody who has ramp experience, and that's putting too much emphasis on one small part of the sport....

Does it deter new skaters?....i cant believe i even read that...
Lets say i want to get into the sport...i can get a board...i can buy cones...i can practice...will i buy a ramp??...of course not!....and when i look into the sport and see that ramps have become integral to competition, would i be detracted?....of course i would...

so..will somebody tell my why ramps are so "necessary"?..especially on a hill?...Jani..you said you wouldnt compete head to head without one..why?...isnt push starting a "learned skill"?...isnt it part of the sport too?...
sure it is...
and it favors the stronger skater.

Should my opinion count?.....well...i just got into this sport over a year ago, and most of the guys i ride with have been in it for a bit less than that, so we ARE the skaters the sport is trying to reach out to. And i'm saying that ramp starts will keep new skaters from the sport. So who is the better person to ask?...somebody who's been around the sport for a decade, or somebody who's been around for a year?


You do what you want...
We'll stick to old school slalom....blue skies, cones on a hill, skating with style. We dont need gadgets or structures to be competative or have a blast.

But what would a knucklehead like me know?

(disclaimer: none of the afformentioned opinion is to be misaccociated with "Dave Gale Ramps" which are another, entirely different topic)

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Post by Dave Gale » Mon May 24, 2004 10:03 pm

Oh.. I thought this whole thread was about the "Appalachian Ramps" that your wife made you remove from the 'fridge Now that I realize it's about an artificial structure to enhance the gravity aspect of slalom ..uhhh.. I still think they're totally un-needed and a hassle and liability and a faction like curb feelers on your Caddy or fuzzy dice. Poof I say! If the terrain is there, why frick w/ it? Racers ready? Get set,GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ENJOY!! (while you can)

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Post by Rich Stephens » Tue May 25, 2004 8:10 pm

well...i just got into this sport over a year ago, and most of the guys i ride with have been in it for a bit less than that, so we ARE the skaters the sport is trying to reach out to.
If the people the "sport" is trying to attract are people who are afraid of a 4' tall ramp, then heaven help the "sport".

We're not asking people to frontside grind over the deathbox to qualify (though that would be fine with me). It's a tiny little ramp. (and if it disadvantages parallel stance people, well, so be it. That's an appropriate penalty for them to suffer: after all, they make all the other competitors and spectators to suffer through watching such a horrid skate style, ha! Skating is surfing, baby, not snow skiing. It's drop in, bottom turn, off the lip, bottom turn, off the lip...).

No, I'm not being reasonable, or understanding or diplomatic. But hey, I'm a skateboarder, not a rollerblader.

Slalom is too soft as it is. You'll lose a lot more potential participants by making it softer than you will by making it more hardcore. In other words, there are more kids who will try slalom if it is hard and potentially dangerous than there are who will try it if you make it safer and slower.

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Post by Christopher Bara » Tue May 25, 2004 9:11 pm

Who said anything about being afraid of a 4' ramp?

Let's clear this up....Rich....I'm not saying anybody should be afraid of the ramp, i'm just saying it gives an unfair advantage to people who get to use them more often...and that can detract new skaters.

And if you think slalom is soft, then find a steeper hill, set up wider offsets and go for it balls out...

We set up 6-10 cones before the hills decline and you have to pump up to speed...by the time you get thru the top, youre flying into the first offset...there's nothing soft about it...or slow

So you tell me, if the hill is good and the course is good...and you know how to pump and accelerate, why ramps have become so necessary?

And then tell me where you get "afraid" from what i wrote before

FTW
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Post by Ricky Byrd » Tue May 25, 2004 9:44 pm

We did allow, anyone who prefered, to start beside the ramps at LSJ 03 & 04. You simply had to hit the start tape with your hand and you're off. Of course your start will be no where near as fast as someone's from the ramp.

I think the ramp evens the field. Some have a powerful push, some have a powerful pull, some have trouble with foot placement after a push, some don't. Isn't a true parallel stance difficult to push from also? The ramps allow you to set your feet, take a look down the course, take a deep breath and rip on the fourth beep. That's racing to me. It's seems more even for most skaters than push.

All that being said I do think there is a place for both types of starts, with and without and wouldn't think of complaining about one or the other if I showed up to race and found ramps or a chalk box on the asphalt. It comes with being a good all around slalom racer.

RKR doesn't practice the ramps generally. They only come out on race day.

Ramps plans anyone?

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue May 25, 2004 10:05 pm

Ricky Byrd wrote:Isn't a true parallel stance difficult to push from also?
No. Anything else? :-)

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Post by Rich Stephens » Tue May 25, 2004 10:11 pm

Christopher Bara wrote:Let's clear this up....Rich....I'm not saying anybody should be afraid of the ramp, i'm just saying it gives an unfair advantage to people who get to use them more often...and that can detract new skaters.
That's a good point to make. Though as a new guy to slalom, it's not something I'm worried about getting wired. I can't imagine having any disadvantage after a few shots at it.

Anyway, my comments about fear were because this thread started off with Gilmore saying that perhaps ramps are intimidating and keep new people from taking up slalom. That's what I was commenting about.

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Post by Rick Stanziale » Tue May 25, 2004 10:11 pm

never mind

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Post by John Gilmour » Wed May 26, 2004 12:09 am

Let's face it- I may never have a fast push start again. So why would I even bring this up, if it is going to be a disadvantage for me?

I think Chris has some good points. Part of the great things about slalom is not having to need any more gear than a few cones and a board. You don't have to go out and buy power tools and scavage for wood to build your own terrain. You don't have to find someone to drive you to a skatepark- or own a car. If you want to use a ramp to practice- you need a very special practice spot...or you need to own your own property.

I can ride parallel stance, surf stance or Modified parallel. I definitely would prefer a push start if I were riding parallel stance. In the parallel stance you have very limited front to rear balance- not good for ramps (ok if you can scissor your legs instantly when needed like on skates), but horrible if you are trapped in the stance. You are also more likely to get jarred front to rear when you exit the ramp- and being off balance as the first cone approaches isn't a great feeling. I launched in MB TS in modified parallel stance - I would have been more balanced in surf stance.

Rich, as regards to style- I happen to think Piercy's style was one of the best to watch, I also enjoyed watching Vince Turner skate. Bruce Brewington was one of the skaters I heard people talking about in Paris last year...because they were interested in his style. Enough people talked about it- that even Bruce heard it. But I can understand if you would prefer all slalom to look like surfing, especially if you are looking for surf influenced skating and are not interested in ski influenced skating.

Chris talks about being a newer slalomer, and I still remember thinking before my ramp starts in Europe in the 1990's that I would have been better off with a push start. As a new skater I would have gladly taken the push start- as the courses were difficult enough by themselves. I wasn't out to win, I just didn't want to DQ. I wanted to go home with a time.

I've seen photos of Chris' hill, wow! Nice hill. . I've heard people say about other contest venues....."Well, it isn't much of a hill, but with start ramps it should be okay." The way I look at it is the only way a hill will be good enough with a start ramp is if it is good enough WITHOUT a start ramp. That should be the qualifier for the site, if it can exist without ramps. Then if you like toss a ramp in- at least it isn't an enabler.
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Post by John Gilmour » Wed May 26, 2004 12:10 am

As small as this sport is...we need to encourage people and try not to discourage them. Right now there are so few kids and women racing....it just looks sad. So you have to ask yourself....Are Mom's not suggesting that their kids try slalom because they see the ramp? I know more than one Mom that will be nervous when she sees her kids up on a ramp in competiton. Allowing kids to push start would reduce that fear.

One other thing.

A botched push start. 9 year old girl Skater takes off out of the box, trips over her own wheel, falls forward does a knee slide, scapes her knee. Unusual occurance since she practices the same way as she races.

A botched ramp start. 9 year old girl with ZERO ramp experience starts racing. She tries her first two runs and is fine. People's concern at this point is lessened. She tries to pull harder out of the gate for her next run looses her balance backwards and cracks her head on the ramp- snaps her neck.


No that could never happen.

All that being said if I were to hold a ramp race I would want the biggest ramps I could build. But I would make sure people had the option to push start if they felt more comfortable. I likely wouldn't use the ramps for less experienced racers.
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Post by Christopher Bara » Wed May 26, 2004 12:59 am

That's a very good point John.....And in that case i'd have to agree..if there wasnt a really nice pitch, then a ramp may be the ticket....We havent had much chance yet to check out races out-state, so i know our view is probably "limited".......
Rich...didnt mean to sound like i was going off on ya....we're actually a crew of oldschoolers up here that just got into slalom....and some of the guys i ride with never stopped riding ramps/parks/vert since the early 80's...that's what i meant about not being afraid....
i forgot this thread was about kids and the ladies..

Why dont moms let their kids get into it?....i doubt ramps would prevent them from at least showing interest, unless the first time they see slalom is AT a contest.......kids just dont get dnough exposure to it in any way shape or form...

As far as women go, i think allot of them see it as a "guys thing" and i dont know why....i've seen women dance...and guys dance..and we all know women have better natural rhythm (hey, it's true)....and that can play into coneskating...
for what it's worth, my wife is going to take it up this Sunday...but on a flat course, not on the hill....and come to think of it...i guess that makes your point...she would never start off on a ramp because she isnt confident enough........yet

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Post by Eddy Martinez » Wed May 26, 2004 4:10 am

Chris how's it going my brother. As for women and kids coming off of start ramps, it brings to mind my friend lisa, Elissa and Katie Campbell, those girls are fearless they got right up there with the rest of the dudes and went for it. Of course alot of the guys from the slalom community coached them. As for ramp plans Ricky Byrd has the best design, he would be more than happy to share them with anyone. He is one coolest dudes I know. KCR would have no problem with start ramps, believe me I have seen you guys skate. Your Amigo Eddy Texas Outlaws.

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Post by Rich Stephens » Wed May 26, 2004 6:47 am

One idea for practice: doesn't every town in america have a skatepark yet? It sure is starting to seem that way! Our local skatepark has banked sections that one can roll in to that are about the same size and shape as the FCR starting ramps. Maybe you guys can find such places at skateparks in your area.

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Post by Christopher Bara » Wed May 26, 2004 4:26 pm

Good thought..., we've got parks with roll ins...all the way up to Modern's at about 8 feet ..... but i'm not really tentative with rolling a ramp as it is pulling out on the gate with my arms....it's just that i've never done that before and i dont know how it'd feel....seems i'd throw myself off balance, but i could be wrong....and i ride left foot forward and my right toes lined up with my left heel (is that called modified parallell?)....so i'd have to get used to a little wobble going in, since that's not how i ride a park board. I'm willing to try anything....i just think it'd be a huge disadvantage....and it'd be intimidating to some of the younger skaters.

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Post by Dave Gale » Wed May 26, 2004 4:44 pm

I think there is a much stronger argument for push starts than ramps.(IMHO) Last years M.S.S.S dq'd 75% of the field on the 88 cone 6' straight
Walking up the course w/ Gilmour we spoke of next year making it a 6.5' o.c, as even the racers that didn't dq were pumping the course for the 1st 1/3 then hangin' on for the ride and "breaking" the best you can for the remainder Hmmmm.... If you got a hill, it's essentially a 500-600 foot long ramp. Now, if your're on a "flat" a starting boost is needed for speed!
ENJOY!! (while you can)

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Post by Eddy Martinez » Wed May 26, 2004 4:50 pm

Chris you are too cool bro. I found www.stillboardin.com check out my post. Its had a blast hanging with you and your crew at G4. KCR is a slalom force to be reckoned with. See you at the top of the hill my brother. Eddy Texas Outlaws.

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Post by John Gilmour » Wed May 26, 2004 6:36 pm

Having a start ramp on a slight hill and having a push start on a steep hill are not equivalent.

On a flat course your top end speed is limited by how fast you can pump on flat. Whatever speed the ramp gave you in the start is lost in the first ten cones.

On an extremely slight pitch (like MB main St.) your top end speed is limited by how fast you can pump down that hill.

On a moderately steep pitch your top end speed is limited by how fast you can pump. (Catalina- 'DA Farm)

On a steep pitch your top end speed is limited by traction and how fast you can react to the course and how well you position your body as well as your line. However you might not reach this top end speed unless you pump strongly in the beginning. At the bottom - you are just turning as quickly as you can controlling your traction and picking your line. I feel this is an exciting course as it brings all the skills together. Lots of braking skills are also used in this type of course.

On a ridiculously steep pitch - no one dares to pump. And your top end speed is limited by your limits of your gear, experience, and traction. This would be the pitch of a moderately steep intermediate ski run. I find this to be mostly about your line- gear, and body position + reflexes. For the most part these courses are just survival- like downhill. But they lack some of the finer skills of slalom. They are more like Downhill races with slalom gates. (And I'm not talking Super G - I'm talking Hybrid on a very steep pitch) Pumping skills are useless on these courses.

Rich brings up the skatepark analogy- and even though I skated vert I didn't skate vert modified parallel on a slalom board. If someone doesn't own a park deck, should they have to buy a park deck to learn to ride slalom? Wouldn't the slalom industry see that money going towards another slalom deck? I don't think its a great idea to take an expensive slalom deck to a skatepark. However Rich brings up a good idea. What if skateparks built launch ramps similar to slalom launch ramps- and those ramps could be used for Banked slalom? But again- I'm not sure that all kids should have to ride a skatepark before they learn to slalom....I didn't. Did you?

I just don't feel that riding ramps should be required for slalom. It should be the racer's option.

I've coached a lot of kids in slalom. Most of the girls (not all) and some of the smaller kids are apprehensive about ramp starts. Those of us who already rode vert look at the start ramps heights as a joke ( I do). Certainly any kid with vert experience would not be deterred (like Nathan Groff, Curt Kimble's son, Tony Hawk's son) but simply expecting kids to have ramp experience isn't necessarily realistic. Some kids might not like be into ramps and longboard instead- and I don't think we should penalize those kids who only like cruising. For the cruising kids on longboards it is likely they would have more affinity for slalom than the kick flipper kids anyway.

But I also remember being 8 years old and trying to ride my first banks made of a single sheet of plywood- it wasn't easy, I stuck with it and was lucky enough to have a friend who owned his own ramp- but that isn't the case for all kids. Some of the "local skateparks" I have seen don't even have ramps- they just have street areas rails and stairs and fun boxes with ramps too short to be of any use for training. I'm helping with a skatepark- but the consensus from the kids is that they want 80% of the park as street and 20% or less as bowls. In the end we have a 50% street 50% bowl area- but we had to practically force it on them.
Last edited by John Gilmour on Wed May 26, 2004 6:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Ricky Byrd » Wed May 26, 2004 6:39 pm

Closer to the subject...I have seen new kids come out and work hard to clean a course, then race day they come up against a start ramp and it blows their mind. We have a new racer named Meg, she has yet to make one ramp start, she's tough and determined, I'm confident she'll get it down, but it does throw a wrench in her first race efforts.

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Post by Christopher Bara » Wed May 26, 2004 7:04 pm

And see Ricky, that's the kicker...it shouldnt have to mess her up like that. What i like about push or pump starting is it puts the control of the starting speed in the racers hands. In my opinion, if you can take a course full blast at the onset, and make all the gates with no problem, then the course is not challenging enough. I figure the best set courses involve areas you can pump thru, some you have to wiggle thru, and some you have to slide a bit to slow down and make (either that or just lay it all out and hope you dont crash). But with the courses that are the most fun, to me, you have to control your "entry speed" or else your going to be carrying too much midway down. Then you learn to enter with more speed as you improve.
But to be able to enter a course at ramp speed and still make all the gates, as opposed to learning to "change and control" your speed is not as challenging. Set up a course that has a couple offsets so wide that you can only make them by sliding a bit and cutting speed ...it's a blast!...it also favors skaters who really know their gear.
Isnt that what slaloming is supposed to be about?.....if it's not, then that's what we're making it about in the midwest....i guess we can have our own style out here.

And i agree with Dave....Use ramps only if necessary, otherwise, keep the skating oldschool, a good fast hill will still be fun to both ride and watch. The real trick lies in setting the course, which only comes with experience.

Ricky, you made that statement that youre confident she'll get it down (i dont know how to do those quotation boxes)....problem is while she's learing to do the ramp, and spending allot of time on that one little part of the race, she's not having fun with the rest it, the actual racing itself. Again, the racing should be about pumping, control, style and skill on the course, not in coming off a ramp........

(by the way, we're setting up a 50 cone flat slalom this weekend and i'll lay 10 to 1 that says the winner will be the one that pumps the hardest and moves the fastest....not the one who has the quickest reaction time out of the gate....it's gonna be a blast)

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Strangely enough...That makes me think.

Post by John Gilmour » Wed May 26, 2004 7:43 pm

4 years ago I bought Weasel a slalom deck for Christmas (Comet, Indys, NOS Kryptonics CS-62's, Swiss Bones.

The deck sat mostly unused.. and eventually he forgot it in a field and it was stolen. The board never saw a slalom course.

Two years ago Bryan (Weasel) then 13, asked me if I would coach him in slalom.

I said "No".

He asked me why, I said "You'll likely never stick with it. So all the time I spend coaching you would be a waste (reverse psychology) so why should I bother. If you get good on your own I'll eventually coach you- but not unless you figure it out yourself."

Bryan was a typical kickflipper kid. He bought a Element fiberlight deck that fell apart- after that he decided he wanted a slalom deck made of REAL composite materials.

So he practiced.

I knew Bryan would likely have no trouble adapting to ramp starts as he was already a decent street skater and had ridden ramps before- and essentially he's pretty reckless and doesn't care much about pain or getting injured. Hell the kid would run full speed into walls as an infant - slash his forehead open, and have to go to the emergency room - so to him a ramp is a joke. He staples his own leg for fun.

So his sisters would watch Bryan set up a course in front of the house. They saw he was having fun. Carly got a perfect slalom deck for her weight - A vintage double cutaway 26 inch fibreflex with Indys and Stingers for X-mas when she was 9 . She couldn't turn a regular board and has no interest in skateparks. So I figured for her size this would be a good cruising deck. At least she wouldn't feel left out.

The deck sat mostly unused.. and eventually she forgot about it and it was stripped for parts a year later by her older brother and sold those parts to Karl. The board never saw a slalom course.

The older sister, Jessica 13, decided she wanted to skateboard. So she would borrow her brother's deck. Her brother didn't want to share his deck. So she went and found Carly's Fibreflex, and stripped Karl's board and put together a board she could ride (She learned how to use a screw driver- learned about truck geometry, and learned how things go together). Jessica had that super turny fibreflex for a few days and learned to turn and go through the course. The first deck she learned on was my Ed Economy board (very stable and safe) that Karl destroyed when he let it get run over by a car. Karl also learned on this same deck- before it destroyed him.

Carly seeing that the other two were having fun wanted to skateboard- so she repossessed her newly reassembled board of mixed origins from Jessica. Bryan got a Roe for X-mas so he was willing to loan Jessica his Roe Cross fire. The board is too stiff for her and the trucks are too tight- she constantly tries to swipe Carly's board and calls her sister names for not being willing to loan it to her.

Karl wanted his trucks back, but Carly is holding Karl's g-truck hostage until he replaces her Indy's and wheels. Karl is riding a Japanese slalom deck I won in Japan.

Bryan got a Seismic from TK and was willing to loan Karl his Chinese seismic so he could reassemble the Turner Hybrid I never used with Payaso Roadie Racers ft and Avalons + g-truck rear.

So for a bit it would seem the fighting over gear has subsided. But now they all have boards (most made of gear stolen from each other) and they are racing each other. Jessica has an excellent push (textbook) and is covers a lot of ground cross country style.
She knows how to fall without getting injured, and she got pushing tips from me. They want me to watch them, but for the most part I'm stuck inside on my leg machine and can't.

So the next thing they wanted to know how to do is pump.

Obviously- I'm not going to teach them to pump right now. I can't even skate. Bryan could care less about how his sister's skateboard and won't help them either.

So Yesterday Jessica taught herself how to pump. Now Carly and Jessica race up and down the street with Bryan. Now Carly wants to pump. And she is about where Jessica was on the learning curve a week ago. Carly is plotting on how she can blow off daycare at the Y so she can practice more than her siblings (she can't stand that they can skate more than her) . Her goal is to beat Jessica. She knows size doesn't matter as much as practice does in slalom skateboarding.

I don't know if the girls want to race in competitions. I certainly am not pushing them to. I don't want to have to bandage up scraped knees or bruised egos. The girls are bored with soccer- which is funny since their Dad likes acting as a soccer coach.

I haven't asked them about start ramps- because until yesterday when Jessica learned to pump I didn't think they would ever stick with this long enough to compete. They might not. But if they do we can ask them at the first race how they feel about ramp starts. On my word I have not mentioned a thing about start ramps to them. Realistically I think they would be bored waiting around for their run. Like going to Six Flags and only getting to ride on two rides a day. Weasel liked his first race- 'da farm with push starts.

As for the girls squabbling over gear...bunch of bloodly savages. Better that than beanie babies.
Last edited by John Gilmour on Wed May 26, 2004 8:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Start Ramps

Post by Jack Smith » Wed May 26, 2004 8:01 pm

This is not a big deal.

Beginners should be allowed to start from beside the start ramp. They should be encouraged to try the start ramp. In every race with start ramps that I have been involved with, this issue has never been a problem.

My goal is to introduce as many people to slalom as possible. If that means letting beginners start next to the start ramp, that's what I will do at the contests I organize. Who makes the call on beginner status, I do, at my events.

Slalom is fun.

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Post by John Gilmour » Wed May 26, 2004 8:04 pm

Jack, I do remember you letting racers start beside the ramp- it really helped racers get their feet wet.
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Post by Christopher Bara » Wed May 26, 2004 9:22 pm

Which jumps right to the next point perfectly. Why are start ramps so necessary even for skaters who are NOT beginners.
Why have start ramps become such a staple item in slalom? Is it because of a lack of hills with a good pitch?...
The course at G4 wasnt on a steep pitch, but had a push start and the good riders were flying. Da Farm has no ramp...why do other races have to have a ramp? expecially if they have a good hill?
I'm just curious.

If pumping and pushing were the fundamental slaloming basics, then why arent they considered more important in the way a race starts?

(see, arent you guys bummed i finally remembered my password?....now I cant get off this damn thing)

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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Wed May 26, 2004 10:23 pm

Da Farm Management has contracted for ramps to be built this year.

I'd prefer Gilmours idea of the steam catapult or bicyle tow-in though.

Joe

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Post by Christopher Bara » Wed May 26, 2004 11:48 pm

see that's what i'm talking about....on a steep hill like they use on Da Farm, what's the actual purpose of a ramp?.....all it's going to do is throw you down with more speed so halfway thru, it becomes a "wiggle contest" with no need to pump ....which is fine i guess.....it's just that for two years now people have been telling me how much pumping is important....and then it gets down to going down the hill at speeds meant only for "steering".....

am i not getting something here?

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Ramps

Post by Jack Smith » Thu May 27, 2004 12:25 am

Chris,

I have been in many races that have used ramps on steep hills, just because there are ramps doesn't mean that there isn't any pumping.

Both push starts and gate starts are fun. I really think you are making way to big deal out of this. I would imagine the majority of races do not use ramps. We raced at Cambria last week without ramps and had a great time.

Slalom is fun!

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Post by Terry Kirby » Thu May 27, 2004 3:52 am

Jack, I agree, a big deal out of nothing.
Can we talk about foot dragging or something???

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Post by Christopher Bara » Thu May 27, 2004 5:17 am

Jack, i'm not losing sleep over it or anything...just trying to get an idea over why some races are set up the way they are and why some promotors prefer ramps when it doesnt look like they really need them.
As far as i can tell, their only purpose is because they look impressive..which is fine!...i mean, if i put on a race, then i'd want some showmanship for the crowd too...but if that's the biggest reason, then call a spade a spade and dont tell me that ramps actually improve the quality of the race.
As far as i can tell they favor
a) riders who have experience on ramps
b) riders who weigh more and can take advantage of the inertia

Neither of which would include me!...; )...but like i say, that's fine

Getting back to the topic though, despite the fact i question their necessity, i dont think Ramps scare away women or kids...The kids will come once the mass media tells them it's cool to come...the women will come whenever they damn well please (per my wife).

'nuff said on my part.

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