Head to head for 12

[Jani Soderhall]

Everybody agrees that the first run of the 16 skater head to head is not particularly interesting and it tiring for the top skaters as they have so many runs to do until they reach the top 4 positions.

Here's a proposal to battle over:

How about allowing just top 12 into the head to head and let the top 4 skip one round as if they had already won it?

Advantages:
1) The fun of being taken out immediately is not that big.
2) The fun for the top four to run their first round is not big.
3) Saves time (8 runs).
4) Saves effort for the top four qualifiers and gives them a real incentive and bonus for qualifying so well.


Going even further would probably not be wise. ie put the top 4 into the top 8, as they may then loose out on "practising" in the course. Once they're in top 8 they should start to encounter serious competition, so that's taking it too far.

[Rick Stanziale]

Sounds like a good idea.

The night before the Georgia race, we ran a "jam session" - a specific period of time was set in advance, and each skater could take as many runs as he or she chose.

Interesting thing was, I believe the fastest racer that evening (Keith Hollien) not only posted the fastest single run, but also the top five runs (I'll confirm this and edit my post if necessary).

I may try the jam session format at the official state championships next year.

The "A-pro/B-pro" format used at Da'Farm also had it's merits, but I felt a greater sense of accomplishment from a 9th place A-pro Giant Slalom finish (a "legitimate" 9th place) than I did from my 4th place B-pro Tight Slalom finish (essentialy 14th place).

[Guest]

I also like the idea of a Jam session at contests because the course is constantly in use.

It is nice to have it as an alternative format to the Duals or the 3 run single track.

I like the idea of the top 4 automatically advancing. It gives an incentive not to sandbag. Also if you are top 4 likely your equipment is dialed and you don't need the additional runs with times to refine your gear.

< Ed note: Please let me know who you are and I'll update this post with your name. /Jani >

[Keith Hollien]

The problem with 12 to 12 is that 4 people that came a long way or are working hard to improve do not get to race. It is hard to improve when you do not get to race.

I think it is bad enough that some people spend a lot of time and money to go to a race, but do not get to race. Sixteen does not solve this problem, but at least there are more chances to race. I know some people are happy to get that one race, even if they have no chance of winning. I know if I am qualified in the top 4, I try to make my fisrt round race fun my my opponent.

Slalom is about having fun.

The only problem with jam format is the best skaters usually get the most runs. Newer racers are not as aggressive and will not get as many runs. Does the term Snake Session ring a bell.

Later Keith, Teams Radikal & RoeRacing.

[Rick Stanziale]

Keith - you misread Jani's post, the top 4 qualifying times would get a bye

The jam session format would speed up racing by eliminating the down time waiting for results to be tabulated and for racers to make their way to the start line (especially during the finals, when racers often have to hustle back to the top of the hill and don't get to catch their breath between races).

Slalom is having a hard enough time attracting spectators, keeping the course in constant use has to help in that regard. A good emcee (i.e. John Dillon) and a display board can keep the spectators informed as to who is winning.

Perhaps a jam session qualifying, followed by the top four going at it in a double elimination, dual lane format.

A local bike race promoter (who also runs an inline race from Athens to Atlanta) recently acquired a new timing system - all the racers are given "chips" that automatically records their times as they cross the start and finish line. I'm looking into borrowing this for my next race.

[John Gilmour]

Jani, I was the "guest" forgot to log in.

I think eliminating the "blowout" pairings is a good idea. At the Bridge Day race I failed to race my first run, and was able to make up the time deficit in the second run. So the first run was not needed.

I think we would all like to race more races in the same day. By eliminating some of the widely spaced pairings we can save time. Most will see that Qualifying goes quickly, (particularly if you do staggered dual lane qualifying), and what takes time is pairing people and doing the bracketing.

The racing seems to lose momentum when we go from Qualifying to tabulating the brackets.

If we can pick up some "lost" time then perhaps we can run another race.

Certainly if we could pick up some time we could run a Pro TechSL and an Intermediate TS. Also a Pro Gs and an intermediate GS.

I think having more courses is also more interesting for everyone. It also exposes skaters to more courses and skill levels. With races of 40 people and under I think we could put more events in. Fair to say you could limit the amount of entrants into the Pro level courses to insure that they go quickly.

As for Jam sessions. I think people may see different tactics in Jam sessions. If possible I'd rather take as few runs as possible and spend the rest of the time enjoying being a spectator. Queing up helps eliminate any Snake session type riding. Fun for me is taking one newer racer and trying to help him take time off of his runs (tuning his equipment, suggesting wheel changes, ways to attack the course etc.). IMHO we'll hopefully see more cooperative learning at Jam sessions.

The best thing about Jam session type riding is that it takes MIMINAL race management. You can also have several courses running at once- which defintely adds to the suspense and excitement. This happened at the third Gathering, and I thought it was lots of fun.

To do a Jam session, you just need one person running the timer and tabulating cone penalties and writing the times down. Riders can assist with cone marshalling as there is always a constant stream of riders making their way back up the hill.

[Keith Hollien]

Rick I did miss that. The timing system you talked about sound like a good idea. Jani that is a good idea about byes. I agree with John about more race at one event. I am still not sure about how good an idea jam session qualifing is though.

Later Keith, Teams Radikal & RoeRacing.

[John Gilmour]

Keith is totally right. Qualifying isn't needed for a Jam session. But 66 brings up a good point. You could have Have dual racing for the final 4. That is only 6 runs.

The nice thing about Jam session format is that the tabulating is already done.

I could imagine a course being dropped by a course setter. That course starts to run. Another course is dropped- and both courses are running and a 3rd course is dropped and so forth.

At a pre determined time, runs stop on the first course. A dual is mirrored off of it. You run the final 4.

Then the 1st course is struck completely. Those cones go to mirror the remaining two courses. You run the final 4 in each.

You could get a lot of dual racing in this way- but likely it would be for just 4-8 people.

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IMHO I think there should be only 1 dual race in a contest and the rest a single track jam or for longer courses best of 2 or 3 runs (to cut down on reset time)

Of course the nice thing about a Jam session is if the wind is against you - you can keep trying, and skaters who attend contests with the hopes of learning and improving have the time and runs needed to do so. Also no one cares if some riders get more runs than others and the format does not have to be strictly organized.

Other benefits are that racers have time to do many things that would be harder on regular race day.

1. They can practice more slowly on the course to become aware of the course and the coursetters intentions. This would likely reduce injury.

2. Less skilled racers can take time to try new set ups and wheel combos and new techniques- learning and getting faster. They can borrow entire decks and get the bug to buy more gear.

3. Wind isn't as much a factor as it is in two run racing, but road temperature is. As are the changing weather conditions, sun, overcast, dewpoint, winds picking up. threat of rain..etc. all which figure into the race and make it more exciting.

4. Racers can hold their cards to the end for a fast and furious final 5 minutes.

5. Cridling options can be explored.

6. In the end there...unfortunately for some, are fewer mistakes as to why they did not win. But everyone goes home feeling they did their best- no "cudda shudda, wuddas".

7. If you don't like your placing you can bust your ass trying to fix it. But you might have less time to do the other courses.

8. It ain't over....til it's over.

9. No racers will hold back...except perhaps for number 1. You should see the fastest racing possible from the group assembled.

10. There will likely be fewer wipeouts because a racer has more time to test his gear, surface, and practice the course.

11. Hopefully the courses set for Jam sessions will be challenging yet makeable for all in that you have many runs to complete the course.

Finally- this more closely mimics what happens in practice... so racers know what to expect. If a course is something a racer is not used to running, he has the time to get better at that particular type of course, so there should be less concern over course setting.

[Terry Kirby]

Everything depends on the number of racers. 10 to 15 racers and you can do all kinds of fun stuff. 20 racers and up and you've go to run an organised race. And by race I mean race. Sorry but the practice session/trying new decks and gear session can happen either before or after race day. I know it sucks to travel to a race, do two runs and sit down for the rest of the day. Thats exactly what I did at La Costa 01. I didnt even make the B class Qualifiers. Next year I again dropped a couple of grand to race at La Costa. This time I raced all day, both days. Practice payed off.
I like the idea of the 4 man bye. That makes sense.

As far as the Jam format. I always hated it when I went to a show and the band "jammed" for like 15 minutes. Play the %^&**& song for christs sake.
Sorry, anyway the Jam format sucks because it is a royal pain in the ass for the poor time keeper not to mention the cone marshalls.
Organised is always better IMO. TK

[John Gilmour]

TK I'll agree that a diosorganized Jam format doesn't work well. We just need a way to ensure good resets and that times are recorded accurately. Perhaps a "buddy" system would work where a racer goes and his course is watched and recorded by another racer consistently.

[Jack Smith]

I almost tried this format at the Worlds...

24 to the finals, the top 8 would have received first round byes. I may try it sometime soon.

I don't want to sound like a hard a**, but when you come to a race, you come to race...not practice. Jack Smith DQing in both qualifying runs, or failing to make it past the first round is similar to Sergei Bubka, the world's greatest pole vaulter no-heighting in the Olympics. The big difference is Sergei is a world-class athlete, and I'm a weekend warrior.

Sergei was a real bonehead at the Olympics and should have moved down to a lighter pole after his first miss, his speed was hampered by a leg injury, plus there was a headwind.

[Michael Stride]

In reply to the previous post on the Jam format, where the writer felt that it would encourage only the faster racers to get the most runs, we found that the oppsite happened in the UK. The fastest racers would do one run, then only step up to the plate when their benchmark had been beaten.
Someone like Levine will sit out most of the race until the last minute.
Its not a perfect format, but we found that many beggineres and intermediates like it as they can have a ton of runs.

[John Gilmour]

I'd have to agree with Micheal in that part of the fun of the Jam session is laying down a time and watching others step to try to beat it. I'm not just talking about the fastest guys either...

For instance let's say there is racer you just don't want to lose to.... You have to step it up to beat that racer and you ahve hte opportunity to do so.

I certainly could see Simon kicking back after setting the bar. The challenge is to make him get up.

When you have a lot of racers, likely there is no time for single track jam and its two or three runs winner take all.

[Tod Oles]

This reminds me of my cycling days racing in critieriums and the format would be win and out after a predetermined # of laps. (Usally paid down to tenth place.) The crowds loved these races and for a racer it was fun cause if you got blocked out of the sprint for 1st you still had a chance
to "win" one of the lower placings after you traveled the previous day and slept in the team car all night.

Don't get me wrong I'm a purist when it comes to racing in general. Time trialing on a bicycle and qualifing runs in slalom seems to me are one and the same but to an uneducated audience can get to be a bit tedious to watch.

Jam or not to Jam? It's up to those who put the racing on and the established fraternity, but my lilly white with newness opinion would be that for now the jam style would be more entertaining for those outside the fence.

[Michael Stride]

I used to watch the 6 day cycle races with my father, and one of the most popular events in an evenings racing was the "devil takes the hindmost" ie the SLOWEST racer was eliminated. A racer called Willy DeBoscher used to point out to the crowd who he was going to take out, and at the last moment scoot past him at the finissh line.
I wonder if someone less tired than me can think of a jam format where the slowest racer is eliminated, every 10 mins or so....after everyone has posted a time? Needs some thought? We have a race coming up indoors, and we could try a few ideas.

[Tod Oles]

Michael,

I loved riding the track but I was built for roadracing (20yrs. of club racing) I dreamed about being an international racer when I was young.
Used to rummage through our local cyclocross hero's (Leroy "Tiger" Johnson) stuff from europe and read about those 6 day races. Never thought I'd talk to someone who'd actually been to them.

I'm thinking of trying to pique some interest in slalom at a local roller skating rink this winter by letting the kids use the two boards I have and setting a big easy course in a semi circle around the outside of the street
course the management sets up for the skateboarders once or twice a week during the winter. Might work might not. I'm thinking about posting the weeks leading time and at the end of the "season" give some prizes away for the top 5 or so. Might be enough to get them to try a run or two during the nights street session. I'd hate to have it so structured where they feel like they're wasting time from what they initially paid $ for. Who knows maybe the kids will be the ones who'll want to take it to the next level.

I guess this idea will be a Jam session within a Jam session. lol

[John Gilmour]

I suppose you could have the Jam "split" after a bit into 2 classes.

A pro-B-pro.

Left course right course. Then run a top four dual in each case if you want. In this way Jani's original desire in this thread to reduce the blowout runs is accomplished- though it is a jam format now instead of a Qual and a 8 man bracket.

Again , I'm happier to see the fastest possible racing, and that a racer doesn't have to go home after only 2 runs. Also I think a jam format is fun for single track.

I think it might be fair to say that for the final 15-20 minutes only the top 8 guys can race. Sounds intense?

Then in the last 10 minutes only the top 4 can race.


Could get pretty crazy in that final 5 minutes. Something I would like to see. Lots of room for heated announcing and discussion of strategy.

To avoid the course being "dead" for 10 minutes you could impose a run that if a run is not taken in 2 minutes, the clock advances 5 minutes. (I can see where this might keep things moving).