Pushing with your hands

Leonardo Ojeda · Post by **Leonardo Ojeda** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:29 am

If you see this pic

you can see both skaters tucked into the finish line (6 feets from the last cone), but Cesar Rodriguez in the yellow shirt, gave an "extra" almost unnoticeable push with his hands, actually I dont know how strong will be that push but I wanted to ask if this is illegal.

Leo

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:37 am

Is Caesar related to Chris Chaput? lol.

Somehow I think it takes that quickness of the hands to pull that off (ever watch Latin/South American Boxing?).

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:48 pm

Leo, if you touch the ground with any part of your body (i.e. hand, foot or nose) it's a DQ.

(These last posts should be a new topic by the way. Maybe Jani can fix that...)

< Ed note: Topic split, this is now a new thread. /Jani >

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:07 am

Although I probably did consider this a correct rule at some time, I'd now vote for a change to allow people touching the ground. Imagine a really wide giant slalom race or a super GS where you may have to go down so low that you need to hold your hands close to the ground. Why disqualify somebody just because the hand touched the ground? I'd say the hand (or nose, for those where this is a concern) could very well be allowed to touch the ground. Does anybody believe that you could actually gain speed this way? If yes, the skater probably needs the extra speed, so let him have it.

However we still need to be strict about the feet touching the ground, it's pretty obvious. But it also clarifies that you can't bail and re-start again.

Joachim Leonhardt · Post by **Joachim Leonhardt** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:40 am

What about Slalom cross... I've seen (DVD Breckenridge 2003) that some did touch the ground with their feet to gain speed...

Cyber Slalom: no need for hand or feet...

and what's about xyz-Slalom: ......

Do we need rules for every thing ? ---

To my mind the organizers have to find the best fitting rules for their contest.

Therefore: one turn gives another / hit less cones as possible / go fast from start to finish.

Please let us keep it as simple as possible.

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:41 am

Joachim Leonhardt wrote:Do we need rules for every thing ? ---
To my mind the organizers have to find the best fitting rules for their contest.
Please let us keep it as simple as possible.

Joe,

By having rules we are making it more simple as everybody knows what to expect.

When it's up to the race organizer you bet they are not going to communicate every little piece of information before the race, so then how do you know what their rules are? I don't like improvising organizers.

/Jani

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:32 am

Those quality circles still keep showing up in Japan.

They handed out sheets with the rules on them prior to the running of the race and had a Q and A session about rules prior to racing.

I actually liked the idea - you couldn't say you heard differently- as the rules were written.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:25 pm

Fast racers will reach 20 MPH on straight parallel courses like that. Pushing with any limb is at least redundant but, most likely, detrimental at this speed.

Maybe if pushing helps to win, then the problem is in the course?

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:55 am

I agree Vlad, in most courses additional pushing is not really useful, but take things such as Slalom cross, Super G and slow start competitions (they're not too rare). There might be an opportunity to gain some speed early on in a course (hopefully none at the end as you say), or at some special places in the course, for example places with no cones, so I still think we need a rule for it.

Because of the same type of courses I'm ready to allow hands being used. Although it could potentially help the user, I don't really see it having any advantage. I'd say that if somebody does put their hand down it is certainly for safety rather than to gain speed.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:53 pm

I prefer to make it simple. Any part of body touching ground between start line and finish line is DQ. For those who want to put their hand on the ground in a really wide super G-turn has just to keep hands off.

For me the surface between start and finish line are holy ground. That's why I never liked the cyber slalom rules which forces you to push "inside" the course.

Wes Eastridge · Post by **Wes Eastridge** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:21 pm

I don’t see anything wrong with foot-pushing being allowed in traditional slalom races. Slalom for us means going around the cones. The purpose is not lost when people foot-push. Allowing racers to foot-push will not lead to confusion. If you are able to have people watching the racers to make sure that they don’t foot-push, surely you already have people watching to see if racers skip cones. I see no problem with foot-pushing in slow start and Super-G races. If it makes the event look ridiculous, that is the fault of the course setter and race organizer, not the racer. I agree that it shouldn’t be allowed in slalomcross, for the precise purpose of safety; to prevent the pusher’s foot from making contact with their opponent’s wheels. FCR currently disallows foot-pushing in slalomcross. The rule was established after the Breckenridge event. I predict that you won’t see foot-pushing in video footage of the Morro Bay / Paso Robles slalomcross.

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:40 pm

WesE,

Do you mean that you think it is OK to push while you're in the course?
Or are you talking about the start?

Whether you use a start ramp or not that's a different topic. This is about parts of your body touching the ground while you're in the middle of the course.

As for pushing in the middle of the course I can imagine races where it would be beneficial to push and gain speed. For example after the last cone and before crossing the finish line in all but the fastest races. I think foot pushing in such situations heavily disturb the idea of our type of racing, where we propel ourselves by pumping the board.

/Jani

Wes Eastridge · Post by **Wes Eastridge** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:42 am

Jani Soderhall wrote:Whether you use a start ramp or not that's a different topic. This is about parts of your body touching the ground while you're in the middle of the course.

I am referring to whether or not a racer is allowed to push the ground with their foot to gain speed while in the course. I do not know where you are finding references to types of starts in my post.

As for pushing in the middle of the course I can imagine races where it would be beneficial to push and gain speed. For example after the last cone and before crossing the finish line in all but the fastest races.

If there is a fear of people doing that, the finish line should be brought closer to that cone. More important though, it should be up to the racer to decide how to get speed after the last cone. In crossing the finish line, is there really a difference between only one foot on the board and both feet on the board? Both racers are free to decide what they need to do.

I think foot pushing in such situations heavily disturb the idea of our type of racing, where we propel ourselves by pumping the board.

Disallowing foot-pushing excludes newbies. Why make the extra effort to do that? Disallowing this fundimental of skateboarding helps no one. The requirements of racers should be set by the course, not a rule committee.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:02 am

I you need to foot push inside the course I think you are on a level where rules are of no concern for you.

Of course foot push can be used instead of a start ramp but it should never be allowed after the start line.

Wes Eastridge · Post by **Wes Eastridge** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:22 am

Hans Koraeus wrote:I you need to foot push inside the course I think you are on a level where rules are of no concern for you.

I don’t need to foot-push inside the course, nor would I want to. I am saying that the rule is arbitrary and should be dropped.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:38 pm

Seems like I am harder in my opinion than the actual ISSA rules that says...

"A racer is disqualified if he touches the ground with a foot between the start and the finish line."

So the first post in this topic asking weather it is ok to use hands to give a slight push in the end. Well, according to the ISSA rules it is ok. According to me it shouldn't but that's another story.

Kevin M. Gamble · Post by **Kevin M. Gamble** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:29 pm

So, if pushing with your hands is possibly OK, how do we feel about hand-criddling, or should we call it "handling"?

How can you tell if a racer was hand pushing and accidently touched a cone with his/her hand as he/she passed inside the cone?

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:13 am

Good point Kevin. Knocking down a cone with your hand is considered a DQ for most of us I think but actually there is nothing about this in the ISSA rules. This needs to be added in the coming review.

alavoine jean paul · Post by **alavoine jean paul** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:35 pm

Ask Vincent Langlade about "touching the ground with one hand during a giant slalom", he was once disqualified for that reason during a French contest, even though most of the racers (including me) tried to explain the judges that there was no problem with that : he did not gain speed doing that. As for the picture shown above, I'm sure the skater wearing the yellow T-shirt LOST some speed if he actually put a hand on the floor so close to the finish-line.

Chris Linford · Post by **Chris Linford** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:16 pm

UK rules state ALL parts of the body. If you can touch you hand down i bet i can find a leading academic who will state that there is no difference between a hand and a foot. I could provide evidence that feet are as dextrous a hands.

However UK rules are irrelevent so who cares. You ride a board, don't get off of it.

jesus I agree with you Corky, I must be getting old.

Chris

alavoine jean paul · Post by **alavoine jean paul** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:24 pm

Chris Linford wrote: I could provide evidence that feet are as dextrous as hands.

Yeah, some people manage to play cards using their feet, some other even skate freestyle...

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Pushing with your hands

Pushing with your hands

Don't think for a second that South Americans aren't fast!

Japan hands down rules

Handling?