[2004] Administration: Rules

[Michael Dong]

Corky,

The points for Antibes in the world ranking look very odd. I see Luca with less points than Dhyan and both Paul Price and I have 0 points.

Also, what class of race is Antibes? It appears to be a main with the Super G not adding points? I see Maurus with 1000 pts and he won both the special and the GS.

Thanks again for putting this enormous effort forth. It makes racing that much more fun.

Michael

[Jani Soderhall]

Michael,

I can give you a few answer (with what I believe to be the truth).

Maximum 8 events:
Each skater can only earn points from 8 results. Those will be your 8 best results in each year. The idea was to avoid people placing high only because they're travelling to events. Some travelling should be rewarded, but nobody can go to every events. It takes good results too to be ranked high.

If you have 0 points in a column I've interpreted it as: "Yes, you were there, but you have better points elsewhere, so 0 points added for this event". I don't know if this is the ultimate way to present it. Maybe that can be improved so that we can see how many points you got but still understand that they don't count towards the total.

This is probably the reason for Luca to have less than Dhyan. Luca only counted results from one event. Dhyan from two. In your case, same thing. You probably had better results (point wise) elsewhere.


Antibes, being a major, counting as a main?
Unfortunately Corky added the rule that if a contest has a mixed class it counts as an Open class. A bummer for all Europeans (and you) 2003.

/Jani

[Hans Koraeus]

Dong,

Funny you should ask that. I was suposed to explain that yesterday in the rank topic but time ran out. Since we are in the rule topic here let's explain the rules. By the way Jani have explained it correctly as well.

- In the overall ranking you count your 8 best discipline points.
- You can count maximum 2 discipline points per competition.
- There are 2 Majors in the world each year. One in the West Atlantic region and one in the East Atlantic region.
- You can only count 1 Major competition per year.
- If you enter both Majors, which is perfectly ok, only one will be counted as a Major and the other will then be counted as a Main.

These are the rules. Now the question why the ranking look like it does will be explained in the rank topic also but since you ask it here I will explain here as well with you as the example.

You entered both Majors.
- Morro Bay CA, Pro (2 best placements: 3 and 8 )
- Antibes FRA, Open (2 best placements: 4 and 5)

Version 1
Morro Bay as Major Pro will give you 672 (3) + 544 (8 ) = 1216
Antibes as Main Open will give you 264 (4) + 251 (5) = 515
This version gives you 1731 points

Version 2
Antibes as Major Open will give you 400 (4) + 380 (5) = 780
Morro Bay as Main Pro will give you 420 (3) + 340 (8 ) = 760
This version gives you 1540 points

I selected the first version since it gives you the most points.

After this your points from Antibes does not qualify among your 8 best points. That is why it shows 0 points for you in the ranking. You have got better points from Elsinore, Breck and Vista.

[Hans Koraeus]

The specification document (see first post above) have been revised by an honorable member of this site to fix some grammatical errors in my document.

Also this text has been added after discussions of possible entrance of the slalom discipline into shows like X-games and the sorts where they don't have time or place to have 40 racers in both Pro and Am class.

Could you have a competition with only a Pro class?
The only way to have a single Pro class could possibly be if you in good time invite only let's say the 16 best in the world according to current world ranking (Total, Per region or Last year ranking) results. The 16 best who wants to go counting from the top of the decided list is in. The region organizing such a competition have the right to also organize an Open/Am only competition with the same status. The two competitions (Pro and Open/Am) should be presented at the same time. Worth noticing is that those who have entered the Pro competition may not enter also that linked Open/Am competition in that case.

[Hans Koraeus]

I just saw the topic concerning Pro and Am in the "Competition rules" section. There have been some questions on this subject linked to the World Ranking system also. It could be a good idea maybe to share those thoughts with you all to get more angles on the Pro/Am problem.

Here are the basics of how the World Ranking has tackled the Pro/Am issue
Almost everyone in the Pro class should normally be better than the ones in the Am class. At least that's what I have based my ideas on. There is a small overlap with the 3-4 best riders in the Am class. I.e. if you are always last in the Pro class then maybe you should think of going down into the Am class. If you are always in top of the Am class you should start trying to enter the Pro class. If you are not in the very top of the Am class you are not ready for the Pro class. Maybe you shouldn't even be aloud to enter the Pro class if you don't have top Am placements. So far it is based on common sence.

So far you can enter the pro class even though maybe you would be more suited for the Am class. On the other hand, if you call yourself a pro it is up to yourself to live up to that and if you call yourself a pro then that gives you more points that in most cases are normal and good I think.

Points in Pro and Am class
The Am class overlaps the pro class a little bit in the top but points in Am class falls much sharper.

Major
1:st Am = 11 Pro
2:nd Am = 17 Pro
3:rd Am = 24 Pro
4:th Am = 34 Pro
5:th Am = 54 Pro

Main
1:st Am = 9 Pro
2:nd Am = 14 Pro
3:rd Am = 18 Pro
4:th Am = 24 Pro
5:th Am = 32 Pro

The idea is that the best Am's is considered as ready for the Pro's. If you are constantly around 14-17:th place in Pro you might consider try to go back to Am. If you win you might gain som extra points but you take a great risk. And if you turn up 3:rd or less you will loose points.

Future idea.
Maybe in the future we should have a max number of participants in the pro class on competitions with high statuses. A large group could be directly qualified according to the world ranking. Some places could be open to qualify for on place. Then it wouldn't be possible for Mr Unknown to come to a Major and wanting to race in the Pro class and get a good point for a "last place".

[Pierre Samray]

Corky
I follow you on the last point.
we could imagine. The 50 first of the world ranking are in pro class. The others are still amator. but in the same way we could imagine no pro are autorized to race in amator. Actualy only the racer decides if he is pro or amator, that's a strange and anormal situation. for me, only his true level and ranking could determinate where he has to race.
it's may be to early to do that, but may be we have to think of it.

In snowboard : you have :world cup qualify, then wild card, and home card.
WORLD CUP QUALIFY : can be by exemple racers in the 50 first of the world ranking.
WILD CARD : racer can register in pro, in case there isn't enought racer coming from the 50 first.
people coming from 51 to 80 on the world ranking or a very famous champion, back from the past or hurt.
HOME CARD : can be atribute to some very fast local racer (national champion but not ranked in the 50).

Then we could determinate how many people can race in pro.
We could think about 32. If only 15 are coming from the top 50, there still have eventualy 17 place to distribute. So can enter some wild card, and some home card.

Hum! my english is not perfect I expect you understand what I mean

About races status there is not a lot of reaction coming from west atlantic.
but anyway. Let's go on!

[Hans Koraeus]

I agree with a lot of what you say Pierre. I think we will have to adjust the rules as we go along. I mean if we will start to have 50 racers in Pro and Am groups how should we handle that. Just look at some of the bigger competitions already this year. We are already there. Maybe in the future we will have different leagues like in soccer or whatever if skateboard slalom will get very big. And you will have to fight yourself up and down through the divisions which have their own yearly tours.

We all want slalom to grow but somehow you also loose that great social family feeling the more a sport grows I think. Or maybe that's only for the very top. At the roots slalom will always be a great social/family sport.

[Hans Koraeus]

Why does the Open class count the same as an Am class?
It is true that an Open class likley will contain both Pro and Am skaters.
There are many angles to look at it and I have been thinking a lot about this. It's not that one way is correct and the other is incorrect. But I had to make a descision and after balancing plus and minus counting OPEN the same as AM was weighing higher than counting it as PRO.
The only time I could consider a "PRO only" class is if you invite the best skaters according to the World Ranking or results in Major competitions.

It is an important factor to separate racers into pro and am class for the world ranking points. If it is possible, i.e. there is enough pro's and am's to do it, then it is advised to do it.
Don't think that the Pro class has anything to do with professional in a normal meaning. There are none in slalom skateboarding, yet. Think of Pro and Am as two classes. One for the better slalomers and the other for medium or competition debutants.
I think if it's a big enough competition you can seperate seniors into 2 groups. If not it's not such a big competition and would not be worth the PRO points anyway. And if one Open class would be counted as PRO there would be no reason for people to do 2 classes that I think is a good idea. With 2 classes you will most likley also have more competitors.

[Jani Soderhall]

I would also like to add that if there is a junior that is really good he could enter both the -17 group and the Am group if he wants to. What say you?

I strongly disagree. Except in exceptional cases. If you sign up for one class you stay in that class. I don't like the idea of the same skater participating in all classes.

/Jani

[Hans Koraeus]

I don't like the idea of the same skater participating in all classes.

Maybe my text was not very clear. Of course the same skater shouldn't be allowed to participate in all classes. But there are cases where you could participate in 2 classes. For example a junior entering both Junior class and Am class.

But the main point was the age limit problem for juniors.

[Chris Barker]

How are you planning to handle the US Championships at Breckenridge results this year? We are not allowing anyone to declare themselves pro or open. The qualifying times will decide what bracket (A-D) you run in. With this kind of race, the 16th fastest qualifier would complete the A bracket and "get" to face the #1 qualifier. Still, shouldn't 16th fastest qualifier get similar points to #1 qualifier in B bracket? Then what do points look like for the winner of C or D bracket?

Our whole goal is to get the closest competition levels of racing in all brackets. The other goal is for some of the lower-level open riders who travel many miles, to be able to find out what it feels like to advance to the next round. Think of how excited the winner of the D-level bracket is going to be after getting to run and win 4 races in a row, instead of not qualifying or having to face the top "open" racers in first round.

[Hans Koraeus]

Chris,

I like that idea. I have even explained the same thoughts on this forum before. The most obvious way to handle this in the World Ranking is that the competition becomes an OPEN. Then there is no problem with points between brackets. 16:th in A bracket gets 188 points and 1:st in B bracket gets 185 points.

But... OPEN competitions will get lower points than those running in a PRO class in a PRO/AM competition. So the top (Pro) racers attending an OPEN would loose some extra points.

1:st Pro = 500 points, 1:st Open = 330 points => Looses 170 points
2:nd Pro = 450 points, 2:nd Open = 297 points => Looses 153 points
3:rd Pro = 420 points, 3:rd Open = 277 points => Looses 143 points
4:th Pro = 400 points, 4:th Open = 264 points => Looses 136 points

If this is not a big deal then go ahead as you have planned. Otherwise the way to handle this situation could be to keep the good idea you have as an OPEN class but add a separate PRO class for those wanting to run as PRO. Then the Pro's get happy to get their pro points and the others also get happy by running your A-, B-, C-bracket format.

Possible World Ranking rule change
Another idea is to add a special point group for OPEN competitions in the World Ranking Points table. It could have somewhat higher points than the AM group. This is an idea that has been in the air before. But even so it wouldn't change the fact that pro racers loose points in an OPEN. It would only adjust it so that they loose a little bit less than now. I.e. 1:st place would loose only 120 points instead of 170.

[Chris Barker]

I'll let Fluitt respond. He probably already has thought about this because of the new American Cup points system for 2004.

[Rick Stanziale]

(trying to move the dicsussion from Overal Rankings)

Perhaps anyone wishing to be included in the rankings should declare their status as either amateur or professional. It's definitely a wrench in the system that, unlike rewarding attendance, won't fix itself over time.

But speaking of rewarding attendance, there absolutely needs to be a minimum to keep yourself in the rankings. Clear example is David Hackett. Yeah, he'd probably beat me 98 out of 100 races, but I'm 30 places ahead of him. He was hurt last year, didn't race - therefore it's implausible to think he would be ranked ahead of me.

Now back to open racing,....what if you declare as an amateur, kill it for 8 races, and decide to turn pro? Well then you'll start at the back of the pack because you won't have any pro racing points.

So the question stands, is 8 races over 2 years the consensus?

[Hans Koraeus]

There is no consensus. The current proposal is that you get at least 8 discipline results per year. You can only count max two per competition. So traveling to 4 competitions a year (entering 2 disciplines) is the thing.

See the overview of how the ranking works.

The current system handles jumping between am and pro classes but one day there might be need for some rules on how this should be handled. I.e. if someone is abusing this possibility. For the moment I have seen some gray zone cases but nothing really grave.

So far there has always been a logical reason for everyone who has asked me about funny things in the ranking. I still think it's too early to tell how it will turn out in the end but the more people will start to compete the more accurate I hope the ranking will be. This is just the beginning and the system is not yet running in full power. It's also a question of getting the word out and making people understand how it works. That is the big challenge right now. For some I feel it's like driving a sportscar only in first gear and then saying that this car doesn't go very fast. As we get the speed up we will be ready for second gear. And then when speed builds up again we will put in third gear and so on. In the end I'm sure our sportscar will work just fine.

[Pat Chewning]

I imagine it is very difficult to get official results from all the races in order to enter them into the database for world ranking points. Heck, I can't even get results for one of our Cascade Slalom races, and I helped organize it!

So I'm wondering if you have a preferred method of reporting the results, and what is the minimum information you need for the race?

For those races where there is an elimination bracket, do you try to order the racers who all get eliminated at the same point (e.g. The 8 racers who tie for 9th place?)

How do you keep track of all the variations of people's names that they might use? (You might be called "Corky" in one race, Hans in another, or HK, ..... etc)

My daughter does swimming competitions. Every single swim meet uses the exact same report and each swimmer has an identifier (a number) that they use for every single meet. This makes it a breeze to gather the data to figure out who qualifies for which meet. I would think that something like this would be a big benefit for the World Ranking.

But then I think, these are skateboarders.... the most anti-organizational, anti-paperwork people around -- it will never happen.

-- Pat

[Hans Koraeus]

Pat, you are absolutely right. Not an easy task. We have plans for organizers to be able to enter competition results through a special program on this site which would help out with getting correct names and add new ones if they don't already exist in the ranking. We will see.

I had hoped it would be in the interest of both organizers and racers to make sure their results get counted in the world ranking. Most important are the competitions with higher statuses but all competitions do count.

Skateboarders are in general anti-organizational as you say but I have always had the feeling that slalomers and flatland freestylers are an exception (most of the time). I understand people hate administration in general but it has its good sides when it works. Slalom is much about numbers, times and listings anyway. So why not make something bigger out of it.

Creating an ID number for each person that have entered a slalom competition would be great. Can be done with all the names already in the ranking. But maybe this is too early to go ahead with right now.

[Hans Koraeus]

(as Rick I will try to move the dicsussion from Overall Rankings)

If there were a strict division between who is Pro and Am I would agree with Bill that they should strictly be put in separate world rankinings and not be mixed together. The way things have been working though is that racers and organizers don't pay much attention to this. I didn't feel I had the power to tell people what their choices should be or how organizers should run their competitions. I just tried to create a world ranking system that could work in the current invironment.

For the moment our slalom scene is not huge. Actually it's more a social/family feeling over it. If slalom skateboarding would get really big we would probably have separate Pro and Am tours going on as in other sports. For now we are still able to handle it all under the same roof why I don't get so upset mixing Pro's, Am's, Juniors and Women in the same world ranking. From this mix you can easily filter out also the separate Pro, Am, Junior and Women rankings also if you like. The problem with Pro and Am is that we then will have to force people to select what class they will compete in during the season. And we have to work out what Pro and Am really means. All these discussions have been going on in this forum.

For the moment people can choose Pro or Am as they want. In the future I would like to see that you earn your Pro status somehow. Now we leave this responsability in the hand of the racer. It's not as easy as you might think for them. World championship Pro's and Am's is somehow treated higher than a local Pro/Am competition. So even if you go pro in smaller competitions you might choose going Am in the Worlds for example.

Then we have the Open competitions where we have no idea what class (Pro or Am) the racers may have. When this is solved the ranking will evolve with it.

To let people rank each other by their knowledge of other skaters is just what I want to get away from. It might work for a local area but for a world ranking it's impossible. And doing it per discipline would make it even harder. I want a system that people are aware of and make use of. The system will change over time and no system will be perfect. Some people say the system is skewed like there was a system that is not. All systems are skewed. I think the current system is not bad though. It is built to force people to an acceptable amount of travel and competition and also to gather top racers to compare themselves in the same competitions. Especially to show up at one of the 2 majors each year. We don't have the economy yet to travel the best pro's around the world. The system I think will work in the current environment we have. The problem is getting people informed about how it works. First step could be reading Overview of how the world ranking works.

The competition is what should drive the value of each event. Not the size of the event, the region or even the amount of competitors.

This is also something that is a problem. The value of an event. I agree with Bill but it's doesn't work for getting an accurate world ranking. Setting the value of an event is impossible and depends on many factors. If the Swiss guys sets up 10 events with good competition, that they can, will they then be 10 times better than another region that only sets up 1 competition? In California they could easily put together 10 high competitive events per year. For the Californians this is no problem. But if someone outside California wants to measure themselves with the scene we can't demand that they travel to 10 competitions. The idea is that each region will have to filter out the high point competitions so that people from out of region can have a fair chance of selecting their yearly competition schedule and travel. See regions and competitions statuses for 2003, West Atlantic and East Atlantic. So the fact becomes that of 10 equally hard competitions 3 will get more points than the others. This is to balance things up. There is also a balance in how many statuses each region has. This will also balance things up and hopefully push for travelling to other regions and compete with their local racers. Competing together with fellow slalomers around the world is the only way to really get an accurate world ranking. It also helps for getting respect for each other and all the talents that exists around the world.

The world ranking is also a way of encouraging "normal" skaters to travel and compete. It is not only about the top racers in the world. It's even more about everybody else that now has a goal and a carrot to actually travel and go to competitions that are organized. The system awards you for supporting the slalom scene.

[Bill Wahl]

Jack Smith can win Cambria by a second with no other competitors show to give him a race. But Paul Dunn, Chicken, Hackett, Attila etc........... can race JPL and the talent at that race has no impact on it's ranking? Only a what you and your clown posse determine what is a prime or major event (prior to the event even happening). It IS WHO YOU RACE. Not where or how many you race. It means nothing to win a race that nobody showed up at. It means alot when you win against two world champions such as Ritchy did at JPL. Lets just say California holds ten races and three will be used to rank the competitors, but because you determined ahead of time that Cambria is one of them. Just so happends that no pros show up and Jack takes the cash EASILY.....Meanwhile Gorman holds a JPL race that everyone shows up at and you don't even qualify it. Retarded...The race should be ranked AFTERwards based off of the competitors who should have a value or personal ranking already. Thus thier personal ranking would be done by a democratic online voting system by thier peers and competitors. Charlie Ransom and Chicken show at a race then that race value increases and then after ten races you can pic the top three where the highest ranked competitors raced.

[Bill Wahl]

Kooky,

Your euro lovers can rank each other by disiplines. Ts Hybrid, Gs etc..The same goes for the US. When there is a TS at West LA and someone highly ranked in the TS disipline such as Steve Evans races or John G, or Chicken, Ritchy etc..The TS race would have a total value based off of those ranked in that disipline. If John O raced the GS, but a TS specialist chose not to. Then the ranking would be different since the field of racers would be different. Every racer could then be ranked accordingly in each disipline and an overall ranking could be totalled to give that skater a "Value". The hills, courses etc may be different in Paris, but the skaters are in control of ranking each others ability to start then it is in motion and completely dependent on who they race, not where they race. Thus, ENCOURAGING racers to travel and attend the races where a higher caliber of competition will take place.

[Bill Wahl]

The initial ranking of each racer (voting) would be only to start. After one season and based off of results then you could fairly determine each racers postion in their country. Additional ranking points (rewards) would be given to those to travel abroad, thus increasing their personal "value"

[Hans Koraeus]

If we want to encourage people to travel I think it's a good idea to set the rank of competitions well before they happen. Imagine I pay big bucks to go to California to race. I might want to go to a competition with high ranking so that there are more points to fight for. I have to know the competition status in advance. If not I might do this trip and once I'm there very few racers show up and no points to take back home. To put down all the money to travel around you want to be sure about these things.

If you set statuses in advance I think contrary to you that it will help making the top racers come to the occation. They can't travel to every competitione either even if it's local. If they now some have higher status they will make sure to come at least to those ones.

I'm sorry Bill but I can't see how the world ranking could work with your voting system. If you want to go ahead and try it out to proove me wrong please do. I will not work against you. I would even encourage you even if I don't believe in it. Something good might come out of it.

About the naming it's sad to see you making a joke of yourself. This forum is not a snake nest. Just relax, you don't have to be afraid to get bitten.

[Hans Koraeus]

(moving over discussion from "Overall ranking")

There is no shame being an Am. I know it doesn't look as good on paper being seperated from the Pros and thus really showing where you stand.

Bill, I don't feel ashamed of being an amateur skater. I feel very comfortable in that role. Contrary to you, again, I think actually I would look much better in an amateur only list than the current one.

The reason I'm so high in the ranking is not so much depending on me racing good but more on many pro's not racing enough. I'm the ranking arm twister. I mean, who want to be ranked after me? If that can make people race more then I'm serving a good purpose where I am.

If merging Ams and Pros is "apples and oranges" then the OPEN format is "Apple and Orange" too. I have no problem separating them if that is how the slalom world looked like. For the moment it seems kind of mixed to me. When we start to go towards two different Pro and Am leagues it will get solved automatically.

2. You must announce the points criteria start of the season. You can't arbitrarily pick them out after the season is over. This will no doubt leave some races out of the points, but pardon the pun, that IS the point. Let us know what you're going to count and what doesn't count so I can choose wisely.

Gary, it's up the each world region to select. Not me. For the moment it seems like most of the American Cup competitions will get high statuses. Have a look at the different region topics in the World Ranking section.

3. Points don't mean much unless there is money or prizes involved. Paul Dunn won the 2002 FCR series, and didn't get a penny for that title. Who cares? Paul does no doubt, but it didn't have much impact on his career. He retired the following year. The American Cup series will pay something to the series winner. It may not be much, and it may come out of my pocket, but there will be some meaning to the points winner.

That is why I think the current world ranking is not so bad. If not much dollars to fight about you will at least have world ranking points to gain. This will probably be more important for most of the skaters than the bucks itself. Especially for those non top Pro skaters out there.

[Bill Wahl]

hey Kooky, ummmm ever hear of a Contest Calendar?.....Online sign up sheet?.....I don't go to races with one pro signed up. I make my decisions based off of who is racing and if I have the time and money to travel. Picking three out of ten events and ranking them ahead of time only contributes to your already inaccurate ranking system. Choosing the three highest ranking events based off of the depth of competition after the event will allow more of a realistic ranking system. Pre ranking the races will not get any more racers to enter. It is the competition that drives most of us. Not the pressure to attend a highly ranked race in fear that we will be low on your wacked list. Look at this years a races for example. Did Paul Dunn race?. Did Chicken go back east or to Paris? Where has Charlie Ransom been? Did he go to Paris or back east? How about Steve Evans? Brent Kosick, etc...These are several of the best slalom skatboarders in the world and I don't see your Pre Ranking encouraging them to race. If anything I see them choosing races with competitive fields that have a good reward/payout and or something that will accomodate thier schedule. NOT your Pre selection and the desire to mix Ams with Pros.....what a joke.. If you want skaters to take your ranking system seriously then you need to give the skater respect and you have not done that yet. You have only circle jerked with a few friendly clowns that have made you believe you are right....when the majority knows you are wrong.

[Rick Stanziale]

AS FAR AS "ATTENDANCE RECORDS" GO...

IT STARTS IN school. YOU MAY NOT BE THE SMARTEST
PUPIL IN school, BUT IF YOU SHOW ENOUGH HEART AND
SHOW UP AND DO THE WORK...YOU GET GOOD GRADES.

AT WORK, YOU SHOW UP, ARE ACCOUNTABLE YOU ADVANCE.

IN LIFE, 90% OF SUCCESS IS JUST SHOWING UP!

IN SKATEBOARDING, STEVE OLSON RODE IN EVERY EVENT
IN THE HESTER SERIES 1 (NEVER WINNING A SINGLE EVENT)
AND EARNED ENOUGH POINTS TO BECOME THE OVERALL WORLD
POOL AND BOWL RIDING VERT CHAMPION!! DOES THIS MEAN HE
WAS LESS OF A RIDER?! HELL NO!! IT MEANS THAT THE COMBINATION OF
SUITING UP, SHOWING UP, AND GETTING THE JOB DONE IS WHAT MAKES
A WORLD CHAMPION!!!

CHICKEN, OLSON, AND ARAB NOW SIT ON THE PODIUM OF THE FCR WORLD
STANDINGS BECAUSE OF THEIR COMMITMENT TO EXCELLENCE AND THEIR
PASSION FOR RACING.

HACKETT - BLR

[Bill Wahl]

"The reason I'm so high in the ranking is not so much depending on me racing good but more on many pro's not racing enough.

I love how you think you have earned the right to be ranked above a Pro when you don't even race in the Pro Class. You have not raced Kenny Mollica, Chicken, Charlie Ransom, Steve Olson etc..But somehow you believe because you have attended more races you should be ranked above a Pro racer. There should be no comparison and a complete seperation. There should also be age divisions as well as girl divisions in the Am category with the Open Class being 18 and older. Any Am no matter what age he or she is should be given the opportunity to pay a second entry fee to race in the Open Class. Once you turn pro there is no distinction. But slalom should welcome beginners and offer age groups with the opportunity to test themselves against the older faster open racers if they feel they are competitive. In the past skateboarding and surfing has allowed me the opportunity if I was willing ot pay the extra fee. But Ams and Pro rankings should never be mixed.

[Hans Koraeus]

Bill,

The ranking has nothing to do with me wanting to be ranked before pros. I agree that mixing pros and ams may not be the way to go but that is how I see the current racing scene. I'm all for straightening things up. The problem is how to handle OPEN competitions and how to handle who is pro and not.

One solution for OPEN competitions, that I think was close to what you mentioned in one of your earlier posts, is to let people decide before each season (competition) if they are to race as pro or am. Then pros and ams could get listed in separate listings even if they race together in the same course.

The problem with some changing between Pro and Am classes over the season. Should that be allowed or not?

One could imagine to invite the top Ams to compete with pros in PRO/AM competitions. Especially useful if the pro course is different (harder). That could work as a soft way going over to the pro class. Could also imagine that ams placing higher than pros in an OPEN could count their points in the pro class as well.

I agree that there is a need for some sort of a gouverning body. Johns idea to have some guys from each world region is maybe not a bad idea. Can't help thinking that you guys actually want to revive some sort of an ISSA (International Skateboard Slalom Association) again. ISSA has got a lot of unfair negative critisism when it was only trying to do exactly what you want. Trying to solve rules and other international issues with representatives from all the existing slalom nations. But I guess wanting to do things for an international community is hard and there will always be those that will not be happy with the outcome. Whatever happens with this the world ranking would be a perfect task for such a group. What I have done is just trying to start something up and I thought the best way to do that was to throw something up in the air instead of just talking about it.

About the discipline classes this is what is used in the World Ranking proposal.

Age Class
45- Legends Men/Women
Open Pro Men/Women
Open Am/Open Men/Women
-17 Junior boys/girls
-14 Boys/girls
-11 Kids

Racing with pros or ams are only different when running head to head or if the courses differ between the two classes. When pros and ams race the same courses it is for me the same thing. Happens often when running GS courses. Also qualification runs before head to head can be used for comparison (if cources are the same). I think you can very well compare ams and pros when this is the case. Wouldn't mean a thing with pros and ams in separeted rankings but could give some hints weather you would be ready for running pro or not.


P.S. I actually raced Olson just a couple of weeks ago when he came by Stockholm for one of our Wednesday cup races. That was only a jam format though. But I raced him head to head in Grüningen (Switzerland) during practice. His reputation of strong starts is true. Just going down the ramp and into the first cones of the course he was already way ahead. After that I kind of kept the same distance but even for someone faster than him it would be hard to catch up such a start advantage during a run.

[John Gilmour]

(trying to move the dicsussion from Overal Rankings)

Perhaps anyone wishing to be included in the rankings should declare their status as either amateur or professional. It's definitely a wrench in the system that, unlike rewarding attendance, won't fix itself over time.

But speaking of rewarding attendance, there absolutely needs to be a minimum to keep yourself in the rankings. Clear example is David Hackett. Yeah, he'd probably beat me 98 out of 100 races, but I'm 30 places ahead of him. He was hurt last year, didn't race - therefore it's implausible to think he would be ranked ahead of me.

Now back to open racing,....what if you declare as an amateur, kill it for 8 races, and decide to turn pro? Well then you'll start at the back of the pack because you won't have any pro racing points.

So the question stands, is 8 races over 2 years the consensus?

Well I did suggest some possible carry over of earned AM points...But I haven't heard anything about it... Not your full points- but starting at zero might not be ideal. If someone wants to go pro from the start....he starts with zero points and must work up the the ranks to get thousands of points. However if the same racer spends some time in AM class he won't think it was totally wasted time once he gets to PRO.- He will get some points for his efforts. Perhaps he will start with 700 points after 2 comps and then declare Pro status. He then salvages say...450 of those points for a start.

I did think some time off for child rearing would be a good idea...particularly for the women racers who may elect to miss an entire season. Certainly for Dave Hackett who was out we could grant him a season off where we take his best results from a prior season I agree his placing should be much much higher.

[John Gilmour]

I imagine it is very difficult to get official results from all the races in order to enter them into the database for world ranking points. Heck, I can't even get results for one of our Cascade Slalom races, and I helped organize it!

So I'm wondering if you have a preferred method of reporting the results, and what is the minimum information you need for the race?

For those races where there is an elimination bracket, do you try to order the racers who all get eliminated at the same point (e.g. The 8 racers who tie for 9th place?)

How do you keep track of all the variations of people's names that they might use? (You might be called "Corky" in one race, Hans in another, or HK, ..... etc)

My daughter does swimming competitions. Every single swim meet uses the exact same report and each swimmer has an identifier (a number) that they use for every single meet. This makes it a breeze to gather the data to figure out who qualifies for which meet. I would think that something like this would be a big benefit for the World Ranking.

But then I think, these are skateboarders.... the most anti-organizational, anti-paperwork people around -- it will never happen.

-- Pat

In base jumping each jumper is assigned a number- Note Felix B. is 502 (see 502world.com)

I'm all for keeping the data easy to compile. The easier that is...the more easy it will be to introduce improved algorithums that generate more accurate stats. Also the faster we can try bad algorithums and discard them.

I'll take Number 7 please. I'm sure Chaput will want number 11.

[John Gilmour]

Jack Smith can win Cambria by a second with no other competitors show to give him a race. But Paul Dunn, Chicken, Hackett, Attila etc........... can race JPL and the talent at that race has no impact on it's ranking? Only a what you and your clown posse determine what is a prime or major event (prior to the event even happening). It IS WHO YOU RACE. Not where or how many you race. It means nothing to win a race that nobody showed up at. It means alot when you win against two world champions such as Ritchy did at JPL. Lets just say California holds ten races and three will be used to rank the competitors, but because you determined ahead of time that Cambria is one of them. Just so happends that no pros show up and Jack takes the cash EASILY.....Meanwhile Gorman holds a JPL race that everyone shows up at and you don't even qualify it. Retarded...The race should be ranked AFTERwards based off of the competitors who should have a value or personal ranking already. Thus thier personal ranking would be done by a democratic online voting system by thier peers and competitors. Charlie Ransom and Chicken show at a race then that race value increases and then after ten races you can pic the top three where the highest ranked competitors raced.

Well the good racers should show up to the high points competitions. if they don't want to they certainly don't have to. No one for instance forces people to play at THE US OPEN. (tennis)

Also in regards to Pierre S's comment on points and snowboarding. I entered the US Open of Snowboarding several times. I happen to like the format they used with the Wild cards, and Legend wild cards and Local racers. Hopefully someday we will be large enough to use such a system- but we will all be legends by then.

[John Gilmour]

I regards to evaluating races by the field.

Well, why not just get a few local hot skaters together- don't even bother to annouce the competitions in very far advance since many of the best guys are there anyway. Then the locals can crown a champion. Non Locals won't know the value of the race far enough in advance to compete. Eventually the non locals will stop slaloming and drop out .....ooops that was a history lesson from the 1970's.

No I don't think we should have the same nightmare twice.

I think we can historically look at some of the Annual Competitions entries from the past few years. Look at the well attended ones. Put a higher value on those races. And let people duke it out for points.

Again we are not asking Californians to fly much- perhaps just once for another Major race. I've been slaloming long enough and racing long enough to realize that the Skill levels are soon to merge. Its just that Europe got off a bit later than the USA this time. In three years time I don't expect the concentration of slalom talent to be so heavily weighted in any single region. I've seen skilled skaters come out of the wood work from nearly everywhere over the years. The unfortunate thing is that it seems more of the top European skaters have retired forever (though they are growning skilled younger slalomers) -thankfully we see lots of the American skaters still skating strong into their forties and perhaps 50's.

[Hans Koraeus]

Proposal for changes to the World Ranking system

1. OPEN points

New point table for the OPEN class.

Ranking points are depending on if running Pro class or not at a competition. For the moment Open class points count the same as if running in Am class in a Pro/Am. I think this is not entirely correct and I was a little bit too hard here I think. My idea was that if running a Pro/Am racers will be divided up and the points for the 2 classes are ok as it is. When running an Open I thought that when the Pro racers attending has taken their top places the rest of the non pro racers would get to high points. I though it was better to be hard and push for Pro/Am competitions if it was possible. And if not possible then the Open class should not be worth same high points anyway. But the reason why I want to loosen up this a little is that in a Pro/Am the Am class have no pro's attending. The Open class may have it. That makes it a little bit tougher and why it maybe should have a little bit more points than a true Am class.

Conclusion: I would like to add a special point table for the Open class with a little bit more points and not use the same as for the Am class. More complicated but more correct I think.

2. Competition types

Here are the different competition types that could be used. The competition type shows what specific classes are used for non-juniors. I.e. Pro, Am and/or Open. The class together with the status of the competition (Major, Main, Prime, Basic) decides what point table will be used to distribute world ranking points.

- Pro/Am
For large competitions with large field of Pro’s and Am’s. Pro’s and Am’s are running separately. Should preferably have different course layouts between the 2 classes.
World ranking points according to classes Pro and Am.
- Pro-Open NEW!
For large competitions with large field of Pro's and Am's. Will have Pro's and Am's running together in the same course.
World ranking points according to classes Pro and Am depending on how racers are registered (Pro or Am).
- Open
For smaller competitions with less than 10 Pro's and any number of Am's. Will have Pro's and Am's running together in the same course.
World ranking points according to new Open class.

And maybe these...
- Pro
Only for Pro racers (according to world ranking registration)
- Am
Only for Am racers (according to world ranking registration)

3. World ranking format

A small adjustment is proposed to the World-ranking format to handle some specific cases. Instead of a fixed 4-year period there are some advantages by using a 3 out of 4 last years format instead.

The changes would then look like this...

Current
2004 100%
2003 100%
2002 50%
2001 25%

New proposal
Best year 100%
2:nd best 100%
3:rd best 50%
4:th best 0%


Advantages
- Solves problem when a whole season is taken away because of injury.
- Solves also problem of season with low attendance because of injury, work, studies, and newborns a.s.o.
- Can also balance results better depending on how competition statuses are given out in regions for different seasons.
- Will make a more solid top of the ranking since it will always reflect racers recent best year results.
- A bad season will not destroy your ranking for years to come. With a lousy season you can push it down to not count at all or at least make it count less. There is always incentive to try and do your best since that will always count right away.
- Points for 3 years is long enough. And still short enough to make new results show and run through the system.


I'm going on vacation (non skating vacation). Not sure if I will have possibility to get connected to the world wide slalom web. So I leave you all to have a go at the above.

[Pierre Samray]

yeees!!!!
We spoke about open class some month ago. I told you is not true that pro, racing in open class as only am points. And I thought an open race with pro and am has a pro level, So now I agree with this new rule
Anyway now we'll have two class in Antibes races.
About keeping point on 3 years in place of 4 is may be better . it permit to new comer to arrive in the top more quickly but it's still very long.
Imagine : exemple racer as Paul Price he keeps his actual level 3000 points every years. So 3000 + 3000 + 1500 = 7500 in 2005. Imagine a young and fast racer as Konighausen (16 years old) progressing very fast and by exemple be better than Paul in 2004 and 2005. 3500 + 3500 + half of his actual points 360 = 7360 not suffisant to be beyond Paul on the world ranking (this system preserve the old class for a long time.)
Hem nothing against Paul, a very cool racer, and I expect he still goes fast as long as possible!!! but we all see all these young guys from switzerland. brr Oh my god! time is running out!

[Bill Wahl]

Corky said; Racing with pros or ams are only different when running head to head or if the courses differ between the two classes. When pros and ams race the same courses it is for me the same thing. Happens often when running GS courses. Also qualification runs before head to head can be used for comparison (if cources are the same). I think you can very well compare ams and pros when this is the case. Wouldn't mean a thing with pros and ams in separeted rankings but could give some hints weather you would be ready for running pro or not.

Perhaps I'm not clear on Corky's definition of what an Open class is...From my experience it has always been an Am class of skaters, surfers etc. where there is no distinction between ages. It is the class where ALL Am competitors can compete and test their skills against each other. This would be where someone young such as Dillian could race and test his skills outside of his Am age bracket. But this would not be a class where Pro racers are mixed in. It would normally be a class where competitors over the age of 17 could not drop down into other brackets but someone younger or of a different gender could move up and race against older racers after an additional fee is paid. From my experience a Pro/Am event is something different. It is where Ams are given the opportunity to compete against Pros while still retaining their Am status. This would be a specific event where perhaps ranking points could have a higher value to the Ams since they are required to race on a Pro level, course etc...

[Hans Koraeus]

This is how I see it...
Pro: Skaters with high skill and/or having sponsors giving them money for skating professionally.
Am: Skaters with varying skills from beginners to very good. No Pro skaters.
Open: Open to everyone. Both Pros and Ams. And juniors.

[Hans Koraeus]

I have kept myself in the shadow for a while to try and take the World Ranking another step forward. I have now created a program that calculates the ranking lists according to the new updated rules. This will make it possible to recalculate rankings after each competition weekend during 2005. Let's see what hype that could trigger.

The 2003 ranking has been recalculated with the new rules and there have been some interesting changes. First places have changed. I will check the result a little bit more for possible incorrect calculations.
The 2004 results are being registered just at this moment.


Some news about the World Ranking

There have been some adjustments in the world ranking system. I have got some feedback on the current world ranking system. This was the idea and why I published the ranking here on slalomskateboarder.com and in the latest Slalom! magazine. Both positive and negative comments have arrived. That's ok. The important thing is to try and get a world ranking system as good as possible. From the comments I have got I have tried to take in some of the good things. Some I already did think about and other problems have forced me to think again for solutions. Some of the new implemented things for the ranking system are...

- OPEN competitions points
Before they counted the same as AM class in a PRO/AM competition. This was maybe a little hard. There are often a couple of Pros in the OPEN competitions why now an OPEN competition gives more points than an the AM class. But still much less than a true PRO class.

Example:
MAIN status
1:st PRO 500 points
1:st OPEN 390 points
1:st AM 330 points

- PRO-OPEN event
A new event type to tackle the more and more current use of OPEN competitions with a large pool of PRO racers. If there are 8 or more Pros in an OPEN discipline it will transform into a PRO-OPEN. Meaning that Pro racers will get Pro points and Am racers will get listed in their order and get Am points. This takes care of the now more used system of OPEN competitions instead of PRO/AM. This will make sure that this years Major in Morro Bay will not loose out points against the Major in Cologne. This also means that the Major 2003 in Antibes will give a boost for some racers.

- 4 year ranking
There are two types of rankings right now. The yearly ranking taking into account only results from the specific season. And the 4-Year ranking that is a longer goal to work for which takes into account the last 4 years.

The old 4-year ranking rules where
Current year points count 100%
Last year points count 100%
Three years ago points count 50%
And Four years ago points count 25%

The new rules for last 4-years results are
Best year counts 100%
2:nd best count 100%
3:rd best count 50%
Worst year don't count

This is a solution to take care of when people take a year off because of injuries or other private matters. If for some reason you had to take a year off in the old system you where punished very hard. In this new system you can have a year off and count it as your worst year during 4 years and by that it won't affect you at all. Not more than that you will of course have less margins if you should have another bad year during the last 4 years.

- Attendence factor
The old ranking was very hard on the attendence factor. If you didn't have your 8 disciplines you were punished hard. This was of course the reason but maybe it was a little bit too hard. The new system soften up the points a little bit for those who do not have enough discipline points to count. If you are only missing 1 discipline you will get 50% of your average value added. If you are missing more competitions you will get 25% or nothing added depending on how many disciplines you are missing.
I wanted to be a little bit more forgiving but still keep a strong motivation factor for competing at least the minimum number of competitions per year demanded of you from the ranking system.

Missed disciplines...
1: Adds 50% of average value
2: Adds another 25% of average value
3: Adds another 25% of average value
4: Adds another 25% of average value
5-: Adds nothing.


- PRO and AM rank classes
I have now added specific world rankings for Pros and Ams.


- Attendence limit
For the total Male and Pro ranking you should enter at least 4 competitions per year and attending at least 2 discipline in each of these. This will give you your 8 discipline results. If you attend more your 8 best result points will count.

For Am, Female and Junior class only 6 discipline results per year are needed.

- Rank classes
Actually there are many different rank classes calculated by the new ranking program.

First you have the two types...
- Year ranking: Only counting results from a specific season
- 4-Year ranking: Counting results from the 4 last years.

For each of these types your have the following rank classes
- Total: Counting all discipline classes. (Male/Female)
- Legends (45-): Counting Legend disciplines. (Male/Female)
- Pro: Only counting Pro racer results. (Male)
- Am: Counting Am racing results. (Male/Female)

- Jun: Counting all Junior classes. (Male/Female)
- -17: Counting -17 disciplines. (Male/Female)
- -14: Counting -14 disciplines. (Male/Female)
- -11: Counting -11 disciplines. (Male/Female)

Women can enter Male classes so the Male class is theoretically an Open class.


A new rules document will soon be posted.

[Hans Koraeus]

DQ points
There is a DQ point in the system that is depending on the competition status and discipline class. This is the lowest point you can get. The idea with giving points for a DQ is to make sure it is better to travel to a competition than staying at home even in the worst scenario. You can see it as a minimal point for going to a competition. It is for the effort of traveling, entering and running the race. The DQ point is not given if you do not race. In the World Rankings maximum 2 DQ points can be counted into your best yearly points.

DQ is half the point of a 32:nd place. From 32:nd place the points decrease with 1 point per place. This gives…
32 Pro Major = 400p, DQ = 200p (which equals place 232)
32 Pro Main = 250p, DQ = 125p (which equals place 157)
32 Pro Prime = 166p, DQ = 83p (which equals place 115)

32 Am Major = 250, DQ = 125p (which equals place 157)
32 Am Main = 165, DQ = 83p (which equals place 115)
32 Am Prime = 100, DQ = 50p (which equals place 82)

The DQ point might seem high for just doing a DQ but remember people will double it (with 32 racers) just by running through the course however slow they go. If there are fewer than 32 racers you gain even more and if more you gain a little less. You will always loose big time doing a DQ but you might still gain important points against those who didn’t even show up to compete. And remember that you can only count maximum 2 DQ points into your total yearly ranking point. So no use going to competitions just to collect DQ points.

[Hans Koraeus]

Proposal for World Ranking Rookie awards.

The World Ranking will determine a couple of rookie of the year awards each season. There will be a couple of different classes for this award.
Pro – Rookie of the year: As best season placement in Pro ranking after first year racing as Pro.
Am – Rookie of the year: As best season placement in Am ranking after first year racing a Main status competition.
Junior – Rookie of the year: As best season placement in Junior ranking after first year racing a Main status competition.
Woman – Rookie of the year: As best season placement in Women Total ranking after first year racing a Main status competition.
Girl Junior – Rookie of the year: As best season placement in Women Junior ranking after first year racing a Main status competition.

The two competitions with Major status will be counted with Main points for all classes except the Pro class.