[2004] Region East Atlantic: Europe

[Hans Koraeus]

Europeans have 8 high status competitions to select for each season.
4 Main
4 Prime

This topic is aimed for Europeans to discuss statuses for the competitions in their region.

Note! All competitions count into the world ranking though. All competitions apart from the selected above will get the status "Basic". There is no limit for this status but it should still be considered only for serious competitions. With the "Basic" status the competition can’t have a separate Pro class. Its highest class will be the Open class.

[Pierre Samray]

As I have already said to Corky, here is my analysis:

We had 4 greats slalom events last years in Europe. These races brought a lot of racers from the world. Everybody made mistakes but have more experience now. That's why I think these 4 races might be the MAIN.
THESE RACES ARE : Paris, Grueningen, Koln, Antibes.
One of these 4 should be a major race.
I consider 11 points to make a choice : Organisation, the location, communication/media, level, racers, nations, history, public, road quality, why can it be a major, animation.


1) Organisation : experience of the organizer. Number of persons in the organization
1 Koln : I was not there but heard only good things about it.
2 Antibes : some trouble with the schedule and the rules I note and change this year.
3 Grueningen : some confusion on Saturday with lost results.
4 Paris : rain come and disturb the event , but organizer save it well.


2) The location :
1 Paris for the Eiffel Tower
2 Antibes for the sea and the beach
3 Koln for the forest
4 Grueningen

3) Accommodation for racers.
1 Grueningen : everything was perfect
2 Antibes : I'm looking after cheap place to stay this year
3 Paris : WC closed, staying in Paris expensive!
3ex Koln : No informations

4) Communication/Media
1 Grueningen / Antibes : internet site, event previous early in the season,
registration on line. TV, papers...
3 Paris : Internet site and Jani contact.
4 Koln : Good communication in Germany, not enough in Europe.

5) Level : level of the racer (preceeding edition, how many in the 20 of the world ranking)
1 Grueningen
2 Paris
3 Antibes
4 Koln

6) Nations : how many nations on the preceeding edition.
1 Grueningen 10
2 Antibes 9
3 Paris 7
4 Koln 5

7) History : what the place of this race in the slalom world.
1 Paris : Trocadero famous place since the seventees
2 Grueningen : 4th edition
Antibes : first race in 79, 4th edition this year
4 Koln : 2nd edition

8) Public : Is there any public.
1 Paris : Amazing!
2 Antibes, Koln and Grueningen : good, but can be better

9) Road quality :
1 Koln : perfect
2 Paris, Grueningen, Antibes (good)

10) Good reason to be master :
1 Antibes : Last big race in the season so we can consider as the final
2 Koln : Euro championship
3 Paris : most famous place
4 Grueningen : center of Europe

11) Animation : parties, others animation, attraction for public.
1 Grueningen : parties, and a lot of place around the slalom
1ex Antibes : beach and a very secret but crazy party
3 Paris : Limited about place. No official party.
3ex Koln : No information

12 What about this years?
1 Antibes : big project with animation and tv report. New place for flt slalom)
2 Grueningen : Still ready to receive the race
3 Koln : Annouced after the others.
4 Paris : Problem with autorization.

TOTAL
1 ANTIBES 2 GRUENINGEN 3 PARIS 4 KOLN

It's rather tricky for me, because I'm organizer of Antibes but here is my selection.
MAJOR :ANTIBES
MAIN :PARIS/ GRUENINGEN/KOLN


About principale.

We know Chris LINFORD and the famous english races as Brand Hatch, Eastbourne, Longleat, Westcoast.

We know Gianluca FERRERO the very activ president of Italian federation who organize : Rimini.

We know the very important Swedish scene and I hear about a project in Stockolm.


My analysis : Gianluca with the Stream Games makes a big work.
Unfortunately last year it was cancelled. I'm sure Rimini will be a great race, Gianluca has a lot of ideas about perfect race.

English scene is important I know Chris want to have a main race in UK, but we know those races are still too regional. Give U.K 2 principal races
Brand Hatch (the most famous) and Eastbourne.

For the last one : I propose something in the other side of the europe. Stockholm. I'm sure Swedish scene can make a nice event who can bring people from near nation as Russia, Latvia, Norway...

So for me, here are the principale

RIMINI/BRANDS HATCH/EASTBOURNE/STOCKHOLM.

[Wes Eastridge]

If Pierre is listing the races in order of preference, it looks like Paris should have been listed first on the Organization catagory. People can’t control the weather. Or was/is it scheduled for a time of year that typically gets a lot of rain?

[Jani Soderhall]

Or was/is it scheduled for a time of year that typically gets a lot of rain?

May is not a month that gets a lot of rain in Paris. The winter months are rainy, but May is normally good weather, but for sure you can never be completely sure. We had rain last year (all day Saturday and some on Sunday). We can't have such bad luck this year. If rain should be considered a risk I guess Gruningen and Köln should have their share of the risk too.

Now let's see if I can come up with a 500 word explanation why Paris should be the major...

[Chris Linford]

This should be a main or major event. I think it is the most demanading place to skate and there is no venue to match it anywhere.

Skating is never like it is at Brands.

Chris

[Pierre Samray]

Corky has opened a discussion I follow him.
It would be good that everybody implicated in events give their choice.
That the way I put mine with explainations.


My choice in not the truth : that only the vision I have on european slaloms and I explain why.
May be I'm not enough objective because I'm organizer
So I'd like you to do the same with your analyze.

Pierre

[Hans Koraeus]

I can see 6 competitions in the 2004 calendar that have the potential of having a Main status.

May 29 Paris
Jun 05 Brands Hatch
Jun 10 Rimini
Jun 19 Grüningen
Jul 31 Köln
Sep 11 Antibes

Since there are only 4 Main's a selection has to be made. Pierre have a set of interesting points but one that he have missed that I myself think is important is the dates. I think it's good to spread out the Main's over the season. Looking only at this factor I see a natural selection of Paris, Grüningen, Köln and Antibes. Paris, Brands Hatch and Rimini are all fighting in the same date zone with an advantage towards Paris. Possibly Rimini could fight also in the Grüningen date zone but there is a small advantage for Grüningen.

Would be good to have this settled by mid April.

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

Unfortunately, I can't do such an evaluation, as I wasn't at the events in Paris/Antibes and Cologne. However, I think that Pierre made some good suggestions for the evaluation criteria.

In my opinion, the organisers of this four races should assess each other, but for this purpose they should be present on each of this events. Then, there would be four different valuations and out of these the Major Event for the following year can be determined.

Special rule: An Event which was major in one year, can't be again the major in the following year. It can only be voted again in 2 years.

I think, through this we will push each other mutually and thereby the quality will increase constantly. Additionally, Prime events should stand a chance to become a Main event one day.

The following points should be rated:


Organisation: The race organisation should be in the foreground. Can the race be carried out without any problems? Conformation of the location, catering, party etc. should also count, but not very much.

Location: shouldn't count, in my opinion, as Paris is always Paris and Grueningen is always Grueningen.

Accomodation for racers
Is certainly an important issue. Not only the accomodation but also the whole support for the racers. For example: In Grueningen, the racers are picked up at the airport with a mini bus and are driven directly to their accomodation in Grueningen. Sunday evening after the Event, they are driven back to the airport.

Communication/Media
Very important. Is there enough promotion for the whole event? Inform the scene.
It is sometimes difficult and also expensive to involve the TV. For this reason, that point shouldn't be rated very hard.

Level/Nations
Very important. One of the most import points for me. Should be valued more than other points.

History
Shouldn't play a very important role. Concerning this point, Grueningen deserves also a good rating, as this is already the 5th Contest and moreover, in the 80ties, I think it was 1984, there was a World Championship in Hombrechtikon, just 2km away from Grueningen.

Audience/Spectators
This is surely an issue which has to be rated. Through the audience comes the atmosphere and the emotions.

Road quality
I think, that the road quality in each of this four places is good enough for a Major event. Therefore not rated.

[Vlad Popov]

In my opinion, there's nothing more important in choosing an event's status as recent history and location. What counts is how many people from how many nations came in previous years, how many locals vs. visitors were present. Prime location, such as a big city, is more attractive then a country side with a strip of smooth concrete in the middle of a barn.

There's a 5-million-dollar racetrack in Washington DC. The surface is perfect. But the location isn't. There's no history. The place has a huge potential for many kinds of slalom including 150 cones, but it's in the middle of nowhere. The White House Plaza, on the other hand, has a crappy surface, is almost flat, is short, but it's a much better place for a parallel slalom cup.

From what I've seen and heard from others whom I trust, nothing from this list comes close to Trocadero.

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

I don't think so.

I think it's diffrent if you have tourists as spectators or people who are intrested in this sport.

For Grueningen isn't important now, if we are a Major, a Main or Prime event. The Grueningen race will be visited by more than 100 rider's, and this is the fact who count for us.

A group of the Grueningen race organisators will visit the Paris, Antibes, Köln, München and perhaps Brands or Eastbourne race this year.

Cheers Jadranko

[Etienne de Bary]

I haven't been to most of these races, so all i can say is, by looking at the videos and photos, only the Paris cup looks like a major international event.

Trocadero still enjoys the prestige of the races in the heighties, that is why the Trocadero attracts a lot of transatlantic riderz. Trocadero is the World Cup, others are open international events, whatever their qualities, they remain local events by their settings.

Trocadero is the heart of a capital city, it was meant as the prestigious core of the Exposition Internationale setting, a setting that fits being covered as a major international event of a major sport : bigger than Rolland-Garros, more glam than the Stade de France, more slopy than the Champ de Mars, and better paved than the Champs-Elyseeeez.

Of course, the Trocadero !

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

All events, where are 5 and more countries represented are World Cup's.
And that is in all sports.
Not the place, but the participants make a event as a World Cup!

[Etienne de Bary]

All events, where are 5 and more countries represented are World Cup's.
And that is in all sports.
Not the place, but the participants make a event as a World Cup!

All these World cups are world cups, I agree on that, (though championships open would probably be more relevant for all, and not only in Europe ).
But the setting gives one a bigger prestige, a bigger growth potential and a much better chance for developing the sport and getting media coverage.

Of course the success of the Paris World Cup does not only rest on the setting. The personality of Jani, for instance, does a lot (as does Pierre's, but mostly in the French DH crowd).
But I think we have to consider the events in a dynamic perspective: Can you imagine Gruningen or else becoming a major sport event like the motorbiking TT, tennis Rolland-Garros, Monaco Formula1 Grand-Prix or the NY marathon ? ... I'd say: "- yes, ... if you just change the setting first."
Only the Paris Race has the potential.

[Jani Soderhall]

With Italy out of the game there's one less event to compete for the higher statuses Major, Main and Prime within this ranking region.

Main / Major
As seen in the above discussions there are basically 5 events that are hoping for the Main status:

- Paris, France, May 29-31st
- Brands Hatch, UK, June 5-6th
- Gruningen, Switzerland, June 20-21st
- Köln, Germany, July 31st-August 1st
- Antibes, France, September 11-12th

There's one too many. In some people's eyes Brands Hatch is the most likely candidate to fall out of this category, but we haven't had much UK skaters here in this thread to defend there position.

If we had a governing body the decision should be taken rapidly to select four out of these events in the main category. The next decision can then be made which one of these is a major? Probably we need some kind of vote, possibly by country representatives from the following active countries within this region:

England, France, Latvia, Italy, Sweden, Switzerland.

In-active countries in the region, but with slalomers:
Estonia, Lithuania, Czech republic


Prime

There are four slots to fight for in this category. All other events will be assigned the Basic status, which also gives points for the participants and are unlimited in numbers.

Contestants for this category:

+ one of the candidates from the main group above
MonacoCone, Germany, April 24th
Valberg Slalom, France, May 9th
St Germain slalom and downhill, France, June 19-20th
Bude and Hayle, UK, July 3-4th
Eastbourne, UK, July 25th
Latvia, autumn? (not confirmed)
Stockholm, autumn? (not confirmed)

Ideally each country would only have one event in each category, but if England falls out of the main category, I would suggest we compensate them by giving them 2 prime events. That'll give their local skaters equal chances to gain points at local events. With the events listed and known so far, Munich looks like a sure Prime. Only one of the two French events would be a prime, which? Stockholm would have a good chance as they're not present elsewhere, but is there any event in the autumn in Stockholm?
Does anybody know about other events being planned but have not yet been announced?

Can we have some votes and suggestions please? We have to confirm the status of Munich before tomorrow evening!!

/Jani

[Marcus Seyffarth]

As of today this years Wednesdayraces are official. It might sound funny that the Wednesdays are official, but the truth is that this year we won't race every week. Instead we are going for 8 events that will form a cup and to top it off we have the Swedish national championships the last weekend af August. You can check out the calender by visiting

http://www.ettsexett.com/onsdag/main.html

and then clicking on "onsdagscupen" in the leftmenu. This site is only is Swedish, sorry about that, but since the races are local thers no point in translating everything. If you like stats you probably understand that you can lookup old events and check out the times and such that doesn't need translation anyway on the site.

Anyhow. We'd love to have each of the Wednesdays to become a basic, and the national championships to become a prime. But we won't fight for it If you look at our calender you see that we have planned all our races so that they won't interfere with Paris, Gruningen, Köln and Antibes which we see as clear main events. nuff said!

[Hans Koraeus]

When you start to list all the competitions in Europe this year it looks amazing. I think this shows how important it is to try and set some kind of status on them. Otherwise it would not be fair for those who will only be able to go to some of them. I.e. all of us. We can't expect people to travel to more than 4-5 competitions per season. If you do more it will be a small advantage in the world ranking but not the main factor.

This is my suggestion. Brands Hatch I have put as a prime and I agree with Jani that England is worth a second prime. I did put "Bude & Hayle" as prime but I have no idea why. Let the English guys decide. I think France shouldn't have any primes since they got 2 Main. Germany and Switzerland also got Mains why I think it would be nicer if Sweden and possibly Latvia got one Prime each.

Main
- Paris, France, May 29-31st
- Gruningen, Switzerland, June 20-21st
- Köln, Germany, July 31st-August 1st
- Antibes, France, September 11-12th

Prime
- Brands Hatch, UK June 5-6th
- Bude and Hayle, UK July 3-4th
- Latvia, autumn? (not confirmed)
- Stockholm, Sweden Aug 28

Basic
- MonacoCone, Germany, April 24th
- Valberg Slalom, France, May 9th
- St Germain slalom and downhill, France, June 19-20th
- Eastbourne, UK, July 25th
- Swedish cup's

[Jani Soderhall]

I think that MonacoCone definitely looked better than a Basic status. There wasn't much media attention to this event before happening, but maybe that was just this English speaking forum. The German and Swiss seems to have been attending with their best. I think we should assign this event Prime status.

I wasn't there but pictures tell us it was a nice event.

/Jani

[John Gilmour]

Hans,

At second thought...if France has only mains and UK has only primes- looks like both countries will have to participate in each others contests.

So even if Brands is not confered Mains status there is still a bright side in that both UK and French comps might have more competitors as both countries would be inclined to particpate in each others competions instead of doing one prime and one main in their home country.

[Michael Stride]

It wont happen John.
No French racer wants to travel and lose. Brits dont mind travelling and are open to the possibility of losing.

To have two Mains is an absolute joke.

Will we have the ludicrus situation where Martin Drayton raced in France and was given a two second penalty on a cone, where all the way through the race it was 2 /10ths.

Some nations consider the winning the most important part, and that rule changing, fixing, and genaral shenanigins counts towards winning. Phyric Victiories I feel. I have been disqualified in the final round of a French race as they decided to bring in a length rule for the final. Did they tell me? Nahhhhhhhh.

Its the same old same old bollocks. True the Paris location is great, BUT the hill isnt a patch on Brands Hatch.

[Hans Koraeus]

John, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean but of course it would be better if France and UK could have 1 Main 1 Prime each instead of France 2 Main and UK 2 Prime. I guess if you have a Main status competition then people are more likley to make the trip. At least maybe. Nothing is decided yet and still people have talked more about going to Paris, Grüningen, Köln and Antibes than other competitions. If Brands Hatch got Main status some would maybe reconcider their slalom competition schedule. Changing Main status from Antibes to Brands Hatch maybe isn't such a bad idea. The field of skaters from other countries than UK in UK comps have not been very large though compared to the others. I don't know the reason of this. I mean going to London shouldn't be that expensive for people. I don't know if it is a money issue or not. Stride is right that the French are not very eager to travel to other countries. It has always been like that. Again why I don't know. But we must not forget that France and UK is a little bit like West and East coust in the States. At least the English have a plus in my book since they go to French competitions. It would be great to see the French doing the same the other way around. But it's not just the French. The only people that I know (I might be wrong) that have gone competing in UK recentley is Carrasco, Dong and Jani. And Jani is the only European of them. Funny enough he is living in Paris but he still is a Swede. Shows off very clearly because he travels around a lot.

So Michael you have a good point but what that has to do with the other things you complain about I don't know unless you think there is some sort of a French conspiracy against English racers.

Now then again, how important is it to have a Main compared to a Prime. Maybe not so much as one might think. If all the good guys comes to a Main competition the world ranking points are really hard to get hold of. For many of us a prime competition could very well give us more points in the end.

[Pierre Samray]

Hello Michael
The problem is not here.
We have to compare the level of the race. Paris and Antibes had one hundred racers coming from ten nations. I think Brands Hatch hadn't the same succes, (maybe 20 racers) only because there was less promotion.
The same I have on French event in Valberg two weeks ago. I wanted to come to Brands last year, (certainly to lose, but especially to learn) but it was very difficult to have good information.

About the race with Martin Drayton 2 years ago, I won that race but I don't think I stole Martin, I was sorry for this stupid rule, but it's not for this reason he lost. Only because in semi final against Swiss racer Yvon Labarthe somebody yelled: MARTIN!!!!! and he stopped his run...and lost but please don't say all the races in France are like that, it's not true.

See you in Paris.

Pierre

[Pierre Samray]

The reason that not a lot of french go to race out of France, it's because actualy the level isn't still good enought.
But I expect it's changing now with event has Paris and Antibes which help us for that.
9 of the Antibes team will go to Grueningen. Last years we were 4.
It's moving in France with people as Jani, Dieter and me.
I expect a lot of English racers will come to our event.
Chris, Paul, Jon Warburton and Martin Drayton are already registered for the Antibes race, I'd like you to come Michael to have another idea of France.

Corky if you decide to change the status of Antibes and if we can't be at least "main" tell me now please because for us it's VERY IMPORTANT.
20 persons are working hard to do this event and a 30.000 euros budget to find for good TV report.
Tell us if we lost our time.

[John Gilmour]

I'm only trying to put a positive spin on the 2 mains for France 2 primes for UK scenario. My figuring was that it would be hard to get high points in both French Mains if you were not a top pro- you might do well to travel to the UK where there were fewer competitors and pick up extra points.

So let's take the past racing history into account- but not argue over what has been done, but work to improve future outcomes.

Part of the virtue of the Ranking system is that we can encourage travel to good venues through the use of the points awarded. I have wanted to attend Luna (out with injury) mostly out of curiosity. With the points system in place the motive to go there is stronger- as it is a inexpensive plane ticket (only 1/2 way to California), free accommodations, and would have the same value as a similarly sized California race. Also with the Points system in place I might expect to see other racers doing the same travel to the middle from BOTH USA coasts. Better attendance makes for a better competition.

I can certainly see the parallel between France and the UK and the East Coast and the West Coast.

UK= USA East Coast=Highest educational system, Conservative, World Financial center, more rain, UK highly motivated to travel and interact with others. Active sports lifestyle not actively reinforced by the culture. Conservative sexual attitudes. No disputes over contest timing results. The main emphasis on the racing on not on promotion of the race.


France= USA West Coast, Good Education with a few bright stars, Liberal to the point of being Socialist (and from me to say this coming from Massachusetts means something), Fresh food and wine, good weather system + mountains. French see no reason to travel, shows remarkable preference for their own. Active lifestyle reinforced by the culture. Non conservative sexual attitudes. A few disputes over contest results. More emphasis is placed on the promotion of the race and media/publicity and attention is not solely on the racing. It is extremely important to the French to have a Frenchman on the podium.

Of course I then find it hysterical that no Californians have attended a race on the French Riviera. It is California beaches only with better scenery, food, wine, and its topless without the obesity. C'est La vie.

I would hope that the UK would get a Main status- I think it hard to ask them to travel all of the time.

I also have to say that I found it funny when I lived in Killington Vermont that we had such ridiculously high numbers of novice British skiers on the slopes- when the Alps are clearly better for skiing and closer for the British. When asked several British skiers told me ...laughing... that the Americans were the lesser of two evils IMHO- its likely that their British accents get them further in American bars than in French bars.

If there are concerns that the French would alter a contest to suit their results- then to lessen this fear- Just attend French contests run by Swedes- there are ones to choose from. Other than that ISSA rules when followed should reduce disputes. If you are ever at a contest and you question results, appoint someone witness your run from behind the timing table- you'll be surprised at how few timing disputes crop up. With the amount of video coverage (timecode included) we should be able to reduce most controversies. The only controversy at the past Paris race was that some announcements were only made in French and as a result some French skaters got to take more runs in the GS- likely it affected my result negatively and likely some French may have benefited. Seeing as we can not state everything in all languages with only one microphone, the best we can do is follow the rules as closely as possible. If something can be brought up while the courses are still in place, it should be rectified...but not everything is perfect and we have to live with the results we get- your chance to rectify your results is directly proportional to how quickly you take action.


As for the length rule...issue- may I assume it was over wheelbase? If you don't change your equipment and you get to the final and the rules are clearly stated that your wheelbase must be such and such. You lose. But you must be given this rule in writing prior to the contest.

If such a rule exists the gear should be inspected prior to your 1st run (A stick of the minimum wheelbase length should be up on the starting ramps with a rope attached to it that can be held up to the axles. If you change your gear during the contest it is the racers responsibility to make sure his gear conforms to the specs...if it doesn't and he is busted...he's out.

Rules made up by organizers in the middle of the race ought not to count- and should be objected to. However if time or weather constraints interfere...as they often can, the organizer can abbreviate formats (reduce the bracket size, hold fewer runs for everyone(but at least one run in each lane in the case of duals), change race schedules, shift events (provided that events do not run concurrently or change the mix of concurrent events), , go on qualifying results, etc.)

IMHO a promoter should never eliminate an entire discipline unless there is no way around it- because it will affect the combined results of the competition and some competitors may have traveled with emphasis on doing well in that particular discipline.

Michael- I do understand your concerns. In 1993 I was at a downhill race in France where rain cut short the race. We had to go on qualifying results. Some competitors got 1 run some got 2 before the rains began. The French saw their results improved on their second run and wanted to count their best time. Indeed even the USA's results would have improved with this scenario. We put it to a vote. I, as well as the majority of the racers voted for 1st run to count. But, notably, the MAJORITY of the racers were not French in this race. Later in the slalom we saw a modified French version of bracketing used in the race rather than ISSA bracketing, and a confusion of times between two Swedes which shifted the faster Swede into a bracket facing Luca early. Not wanting to protest a fellow teammate the faster Swede let his time stand and was eliminated by Luca. The slower Swede was eliminated in the next round. Yet the fast times in Early brackets of the faster Swede were second fastest of the day. At that race there was an very good ISSA judge, Erik Raaitvir, but a single judge can not be everywhere at once. So again my best advice for you is to have a fellow racer or friend witness your run, have another near the timing table to hear and see cone tallies and times and let people know immediately if something is amiss. But all timing discrepancies are not in France, I've made mistakes in my own races at the 2nd July 4th race Vlad posted such a fast time as compared to his previous East Coast race results we thought it was an error- or a confused time and asked him to rerun. Vlad was quick to advocate for himself- and got a rerun (though he should have never had to rerun in the first place) Sandy Kirby lost one race due to what I believe was a timing error (in her case she was not given a rerun). My time at one La Costa race was wrong and messed up my bracketing and was only admitted to me long after the race was over by a timing official. It happens, but hopefully infrequently. Mistakes on timing reflect directly on the organizers credibility- and though I would prefer to have no timing mix-ups at any of my races, I realize that they have, and could occur and do the best I can to rectify them to the best of my ability immediately. No one is infallible.

Notifying the timer or organizer within a few seconds of a mishap will get it changed faster than trying to argue it 5 minutes later. Mistakes happen, and can sometimes take a minute or two to iron out. Intended manipulation - it caught early, usually reverses itself in nanoseconds.

[Hans Koraeus]

Pierre and everybody else. I might be active on the World Ranking projects and everything around it (for logical reasons) but this doesn't mean I decide. The idea is that everybody speaks for their cause so that we all can get as much information as possible. Then hopefully the majority will show the way. The same goes for all the other different world ranking regions. I know this could become sensitive in some cases but I hoped that each region would be mature enough to handle it. These issues exists in all sports. I (as the current world ranking administrator) will only step in if there is no other solution left at the end of the year.

But the main idea is that the statuses should be set in advance to asure that the elite skaters can better plan their competition schedule. We can't expect at this time that people travel to more than 4-5 competitions a year. On top of this there might be competitions close by where no bigger travel plans are needed. For the World Ranking to work the best though and be fair is if the stauses is known in advance.

But as I have said elsewhere. For many of us we shouldn't stare us blind on the Main status. If you are out to get high World Ranking points it can very well be that planning to go to Prime competitions will actually give you more points in the end. Luca's points from the Major in Antibes 2003 for example was not among his 8 best points. It's too early yet to know what tactics are the best concerning getting high world ranking points for each and everyone but one thing is clear. You should at least have 8 discipline results. And the more you travel around to competitions the greater the chance of raising the average of your 8 best discipline points.

[Hans Koraeus]

John,

Good words. Especially the ones about UK/USA east coust versus France/USA west coast. When I did my statement I didn't know it was that simulair though. You really got your words together.

[Pierre Samray]

John Gilmour tell something about last result in Paris which are very important accusation!!!!
about "some french result in giant". As I know I'm the only french who race in giant in pro class and finish 3rd. I have 2 runs as every racers!
I have no relation with the organisation.and was very angry when they forget to call me in the first run.if I don't ask them I miss this run! THERE IS NO FAVORITISM!!!!
They make a mistake if they don't give you information in english, but is it my fault?
We have the same problems (the french) when we go racing in another country. In Grueningen it's something like german we can't understand and in the other country it's always in english. Well, it's not a problem, I like to improve my english everytime.
I can say we have problem with americans or brazilians riders on downhill IGSA race. If a french racer push an american, he is DQ, if an american push a french racer. No body see anything.
ok there is exxageration in the 2 part. But I don't approve what says Mickael or John about french. Sorry.

[Michael Stride]

Pierre, I am only relating the problems Iknow about.
Martin did attend a race where the cone penalty was changed to 2 seconds from .2. This obviously affected his result.

As for Martin being shouted at, then i believe it was an honest mistake, and should have resulted in a re-run.

As for my race where I made it to the top 4, then they just announced the top 4 (French) racers without having the courtesy of telling me of any 'probleme' . Could it be becuase the Les deux Alpes series had been won each week by Martin Drayton.....then when he decided to allow a more open filed, Paul price won.....and then when he retired, it was obvious I was going to win the last race? Made us laugh I can tell you.

I must say that this does cloud my opinion of French races, my experiance tells me that odd things happen, rules change, and that skaters arnt aware until its too late.

[Hans Koraeus]

Michael,

My experience tells me that odd things happen, rules change all the time. It's not a French problem. It's universal. This was actually what ISSA was trying to fix 15 years ago. Seems to me like you should be an old ISSA fan. Uuuh, that must have hurt.

[Michael Stride]

I never raced during the 80's in Europe as I wasnt interested in travelling to races where the courses were useless after reports from my friends that did travel.

You dont need an ISSA. Just a simple set of rules, published before the race. Cone penalties, approx course description thats all.

[John Gilmour]

snipped:

John Gilmour tell something about last result in Paris which are very important accusation!!!!
about "some french result in giant". As I know I'm the only french who race in giant in pro class and finish 3rd. I have 2 runs as every racers!
I have no relation with the organisation.and was very angry when they forget to call me in the first run.if I don't ask them I miss this run! THERE IS NO FAVORITISM!!!!

Pierre, I took my first run and passed on the wrong side of the timing tape. I had hoped to do well in theGS as my best result in Europe up to that day was in a GS race at the Trocadero in 1995 when I got 3rd. Time was running short and many racers had opted not to take a second run. I tried to protest my first run - but I was denied. If I knew I could get a second run I would not have bothered to protest. It was announced in French that you could take your second runs- but not in English. I was not paying attention to the annoucements in French since they were announcinging English as well for the rest of the competition- so why should I not expect this to be annouced as well in English.

When I raced in Japan- everything was in Japanese- which was fine because I made sure to have someone pay attention and translate for me.

As time went on some did get second runs. I believe Vlad and Mollica did not take a second run. I waited to get a second run (after I saw some skaters getting second runs)- but in the end I could not- because my name had already been passed. The GS was the last event, and up until then I don't think any French got podium.

I would prefer to look at this as an oversight. But Pierre it did occur and even though I waited I never got a second run. Had I posted a good first run I would not have cared so much...but instead I got a DQ instead of a place. This was upsetting because last time I raced there I was against a more skilled field on a slower board and got 3rd, this time I was racing much better, angainst a less skilled field of racers and I was on a faster deck- but only got a DQ. I felt confident for a podium.

That won't deter me from going to other French races- as I am sure that we will see races improve by all promoters. Paris was the highlight of last years racing- and I thank all the organizers for their efforts in pulling off a FIRST CLASS competition (pulling off the events of 2 days in just 2/3 of a day). I won't let a mishap or two spoil the feelings for me, and racing at the Trocadero will always be one of the highlights on a World Tour of slalom skateboarding. I am very sorry to be injured and not be able to attend this race- of all races to miss, this is the one I really want to go to- even as solely a spectator.

[Michael Stride]

Likwise John...I came last in the GS. Or at least I thought I did until I learnt you DQ'd.
Quelle Dommage!

[Hans Koraeus]

Just to remind you that this is the topic to try and decide World Ranking Statuses for the European region. Use your energy on this instead.

This is how the proposition looks like now. There are two points still in the air in my view...
1. Should Antibes and Brands Hatch change status between them?
2. If Latvia's competition doesn't happen. Who takes its place?

Main
- Paris, France, May 29-31st
- Gruningen, Switzerland, June 19-20th
- Köln, Germany, July 31st-August 1st European Championships
- Antibes, France, September 11-12th

Prime
- Silverstone, UK June 5-6th
- Latvia, autumn? (not confirmed)
- Brands Hatch, UK Aug 28
- Stockholm, Sweden Aug 28? (Date to change because of Brands Hatch)

Basic
- MonacoCone, Germany, April 24th
- Valberg Slalom, France, May 9th
- St Germain slalom and downhill, France, June 19-20th
- Bude and Hayle, UK July 3-4th
- Eastbourne, UK, July 25th
- Swedish cup finals?

[Michael Stride]

Well obviously change Antibes with Brands Hatch.
What more can I say. A proper hill with proper courses. Heck I'll even do the announcements in French if ANY French people come. Cant say fairer than that.

[Pierre Samray]

John I'm sorry you did'nt run a second time and I know that certainly i wasn't 3rd if you did it. Giant is my favorite discipline but I didn't expect this place when I arrive in Paris. But I'm not responsable of what happen to you and even if I'm french, they forgot me on the first run too, but I ent to tell them and not with a smill!. I don't think one second the organizer do something volontary against you.

About Antibes : You have to know that we have to pay 20000 euros to get proffessional tv report. 20 personnes are actualy working on this event front the sea. If you annouce me now we are no more "main world cup". I prefer cancel immediatly the event and save what we can about credibility with the city, the racers, the sponsors...

[Michael Stride]

Why on earth are you paying money for TV coverage? Thats insane.
You can call the race what you like (Paris World Cup is hardly that is it?)

Also, why cant we have BOTH Antibes and Brands as full point races. I see no logic in the current system at all.


Face facts, this world ranking system of yours is a pile of crap. It neither ranks skaters properly, or fairly and disregards a major part of the 'World'.

I think Pierres comp can get along fine without any ranking system being involved. It'll be a good race....isnt that enough?

[Ramón Königshausen]

Gruningen isn't on June 20-21st! It's on 19-20th of June!

rmn

< Ed note: Corrected in Corky's post above. Thank's /Jani >

[Pierre Samray]

Yes it's stupid to pay to have TV. I agree with you Michael, but that's life. Last year we had a classic report on France 3 channel, it was free but the report was ridiculous. We had our own team making a good report (Sam Gordon and Paul Price got it I think) but only distributed it to the racers.
This year we asked a profesional production to come, and they want money, a lot of money but we're sure we have a very pro and serious report. Maybe it's important for our sport no?

Why it's important for us to be main it's because we contact sponsor and administration to organize this. We expect to have the best racers of the world; and the best country for our nation's slalom. We make a lot of effort for that (internet site, organisation meeting 2 times per month...)
I understand you want Brand Hatch to be have Main status too. But I don't want my race to be sacrified. Why Antibes?
Maybe the world ranking rules are not still adapted to this situation.
We have to consider that some regions are very alive as west us and europe. In the same time we have no, or little movement in South America, Japan or Australia.

Well see you all in Paris and let's speak about this.

[Hans Koraeus]

Europe event statuses 2004

Unless I don't get hold of any more information these are the only European events that will get included in the world ranking for 2004. My intention is to have an updated ranking before the World Championships in Morro Bay.

[Major] European Championships [GS, TS] July 31 Cologne, Germany Contact: Axel Fischer
[Main] Paris Slalom World Cup [Special, Straight, GS] May 29 Paris, France Contact: Jani
[Main] Grüningen 2004 [TS, Special] Jun 19 Grüningen, Switzerland Contact: Jadranko Radovanovic
[Main] The Cone Festival [Straight, Special, Giant slalom] Sept 11 Antibes, France Contact: Pierre Samray
[Prime] Silverstone Grand Prix [Hybrid, TS, Super-T, GS] Jun 5 Silverstone, UK Contact: Chris Linford
[Prime] Baltic Slalom Cup [Special, Straight] July 10 Jurmala, Riga, Latvia Contact: Gints Gailitis
[Prime] Swedish Champs [Straight, Special, GS] Aug 28 Stockholm, Sweden Contact: Marcus Seyffarth
[Prime] Brands Hatch Classic [Special, TS, Super-T, GS, Super-G] Sept 18 Brands Hatch, UK: Chris Linford
[Basic] Monaco Cone 2004 [Special] April 24 Munich, Germany
[Basic] Valberg Slaloms [GS, TS] May 9 Valberg, Cote d'Azur/France Contact: Pierre Samray
[Basic] Lush Longboard Street Slalom [Super-T, TS, Straight] May 9 Sheffield, UK: Chris Lindford
[Basic] Slalom Brunch [Slalom] May 16 Zürich, Switzerland Contact: Chris Hart
[Basic] St Germain slalom & downhill freeride 2004 [TS, GS] Jun 19 Rennes, France
[Basic] Bude Classic [GS] July 3 Bude and Hayle, UK Contact: Chris Linford
[Basic] Eastbourne Flatland [Cyber, TS] July 25 Eastbourne, UK Contact: Chris Linford
[Basic] Latvia Open [Special, Straight] Aug 7 Jurmala, Riga, Latvia Contact: Gints Gailitis
[Basic] Pastended [Straight, Special] Sept 11 Pastendes, Latvia Contact: Gints Gailitis

[Etienne de Bary]

After a season of racing, it comes to a point where it seems that we have to reconsider which events are main and which is major.
We have all noticed that international riders in Paris have been little tolerant towards organising problems, such as: Jani had to switch from one timing system to another, or, then riders had to run over the tapeswitch and some did not, etc.
Meanwhile in all other main and major events, when there is several hours lasting timing crashes (only one system available), cone judges that do not know rules, judges unable to identitfy riders, cancelled or shortened races, terrible pavement, set-up not fitting discipline definition... everybody is actually quite cool... as a matter of fact it does not seem to matter so much to say things in a plain way.

Let's face up to the facts: international riders expect a quality level in Paris that is that of a Major world class event more or less equal to Morro Bay. The tension is extremely high, and the organisers manage to assume this level, while riders are much more tolerant in other competitions, and they have to.

[Hans Koraeus]

Etienne,

It is not very clear what exactly you are trying to say. And I don't know where I come in to play with some sort of hierchy. If I had a very low self confidence I could take it as you are trying to say that it's my fault that there have been problems at competitions. I don't think that is what you want to say. If I had a very high self confidence I could take it that you think that I have a magic stich to wipe away all possible misadventures that can take place during competitions. I don't think that is what you think either.

Hmm. Instead of answering something I don't understand let me give you my view of the season regarding some of the words you are using.

This year I have been at the competitions in Paris, Grüningen, Cologne, Stockholm and Antibes. None of these have been able to be run as they where planned. Either because of weather, technical problems or organizing problems. The best concerning this in my view was Stockholm which had a delay because of rain all morning but anyway managed to pull it off almost according to plan. Does this mean Stockholm was the better than the other ones? Does it mean that Stockholm should have had a higher Status? No. I think the statuses was set perfectly as they where. The 4 Main competitions had the best and largest field of racers. And the Major was set at the latest of them possible, Cologne, since Antibes had it the year before.

Now it's true that when going to a Main or Major competition racers expect more. That is ok and correct. But it is also true that complaints and problems does not always correspond. There can be a competition with few problems and much complaint. There can be a competition with much problems and few complaints. This is beacuse complaining takes factors into account like own involvment, your own personality, friendships, no friendship, is it good for the sport, did I place well or not, did I have fun apart from the racing itself, how much did this competition cost me in time and money and you name it. Some organizers get away easy other doesn't. That is not fair. You bet it's not but that's tha way life is. With this knowledge you should be very careful using expressions like "international riders expect a quality level in Paris that is that of a Major world class event more or less equal to Morro Bay". The grass is always greener on the other side of the valley as they say. Unless you have been attending both Paris and Morro it is easy to fall in the pit.

If you think that Paris got too much complaints than what was fair compared to the others you might very well be right. This can also have something to do with that it was the first big competition of the year and that expectations where higher than normal. Looking at it afterwards myself I think I would still rank Paris as the best event of the year and I know many others would looking back in the mirror. Antibes was also a very nice event even if you include the flaws. It may be a paradox that with this result it looks like it is going to be hard for France to have more than one top status in 2005. But than again factors like spreading high statuses out geographicaly and in time does also play in. So does prize money and letting other organizers have a chance. Also when talking Major status I tend to think the later in the summer season the better.

But, there are no rules. Just open discussion as far as we can take it and then trying to make a decision. The earlier in the season the better so that people can plan holidays and get cheap air tickets.

I don't know if this helped you, Etienne, or if I am compleatly off line.

Sure we could start to set up rules about what to expect from different competitions with a specific status and so on. And there it goes off again, the ISSA bell. I here it ring louder and more frequently every time. But why change anything when everybody seems to be so happy about the current situation. Let's continue to treat people who want to talk about problems for a bunch of whiners. That is certainly the best way ahead.

[Etienne de Bary]

I am not considering the complains as so, nor their legitimacy.
i am using the complains as a tool. I am only comparing the level of request, the complains actually reveal what the riders are ready to tolerate, and by so the esteem the actually have for the organisation.
By the level of their demands, one can see very clearly, that all riders, mostly international riders, ever though they might actually think otherways, have actually elected Paris as the major European world size event.

Even though lots of riders think Koln, or whatever other race is on the same level as Paris, by comparing the complains you can see they came to Paris with higher expectations by the very high and precise level of their complains. On the contrary, they were rather tolerant in other races, which shows that they did not take the organisation very seriously at first, and so they quietly took things as they come and just took as much fun as they could.
On the other hand Paris crew was also more able to face the problems, but this is actually secondary, from my point of view.

[Hans Koraeus]

So what you are saying is that Michael Stride had a very high "esteem" of the Paris organisation. I will tell him next time I see him.

I can tell you that Cologne got its share of complaints too on place. If you were there your theory would prove that Cologne sure was a Major. As I said, what you see on the forum is not necessarily in balance with what is happening. You have to be there to know. And sometimes even that is not enough. You have to be at the right place at the right time to know.

I think you are right that a factor among all those I mentioned in my post and many others also are the expectation you have of the race.

What makes Americans choose to come to one European competition or another depends also on many factors. Why no Americans showed up in Cologne might have been simply because there were no lobbying for it. Having a bunch of Americans saying they want to come to your competition in Europe may be a factor to increase the chance of getting a higher status. But, how much that plays in together with all the other factors is impossible to say.

All I know is that we will have a vivid discussion for 2005 soon. As a matter of fact it has already started...

[Etienne de Bary]

Michael Stride massively complained "equally" in Antibes, he is very generous of this on all races.

[Donald Campbell]

do you get extra points for complaining?
if so...i'm very good at it and also in stirring shit up.



on the complaining issue reg. races
complaining is cool and ok in my book,if the organizer or staff turn out to be complete dimwits.
bit if those people really try to give it their best shot-no sense in complaining at all.
i'll come to all the races in europe next year,i'm really looking forward to it.
besides your discussion,corky and etienne,especially,there's an outer,"real",world which differs from this forum.
i think you made your point etienne,but,since you really don't have any chance to change things which happen by mistake-accept em.
corky does his best to reflect on all complaints...but this is only a forum.


real life is and always will be different,see it from the sunny side of life.
go out there and race,meet friends,have a good time...

[Etienne de Bary]

Michael's charging up and down the raceline by his complaining inspiration was really part of the show in Antibes. I really had a great time there.

Corky doesn't mean to take all decisions by himself, (correct me if i'm wrong ) he expects us to take part in his improving that system by our comments.
The values of the European races has to be rediscussed now, and i bring useful (and strong) arguments, i guess, though my analysis may seem kind of abstract at first reading.

i have been physically and in person in Paris and Antibes (to my very big surprise i actually got points just for that !). i haven't been in Koln, but i have had loads of precise reports from the team. Therefore i request that you allow me to dare comparing those three.
i think Koln is a very important race, it is where the swiss and all the north european naturally meet, and that makes a main share of the good european racers actually, so it has the capacity to attract the french too. That easily makes it a genuine european championship, a main event indeed.
But it does not attract transatlantic racers, therefore it does not have the international representativity of Paris, which allows racers from both North/East Europe, including Italy of course, and the english speaking axe, to meet (where else do that happen, please tell me ???!!!)

-----

i also think the coefficient for frequentation is a bit high, while the average should be considered a little bit more.

These are my suggestion for 2005. 8)

[Peter Klang]

Ok here we go, I do have some point. I organize Surf and Skate events in Sweden, been competing internationally in Surfing and Skateboarding on both sides of the Atlantic since 1979.

In my book the status for the European competitions 2005 should stand something like below.

Paris - Major (If run like 2004, incl Jani).
Hannover - Main
Gruningen - Main
Stockholm - Main

To receive Major or Main status the event must provide Prize money, a start ramp, accurate timing system and coneheads over 10 years of age.

Log on, log in, log off
The KLANGSTER

[Ramón Königshausen]

Hannover?

What's going on???

My grandmother lives in Cologne, not in Hannover!
...have to forget my free-hotel

To receive Major or Main status the event must provide Prize money, a start ramp, accurate timing system and coneheads over 10 years of age.

Good argument!



rmn

[alavoine jean paul]

CORKY hasn't lost his sense of humour.
[/b]

[alavoine jean paul]

... and Donald is spelling COMPLAINTS the way it should be.
ET dire qu'il y a des profs d'Anglais au chômage en France...(voir le Monde en date du 21 Octobre.)

[alavoine jean paul]

Etienne,

It is not very clear what exactly you are trying to say... .