[2004] World rankings: Overall

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[2004] World rankings: Overall

Post by Hans Koraeus » Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:03 am

Here are the links to the current overall world ranking as it stands for the moment.
Note that the current ranking is inofficial so far and only including competitions from the 2003 season. Other competitions may be added.
The current competitions and their proposed statuses can be seen in 2003 West Atlantic Statuses and 2003 East Atlantic Statuses.

Here is the male top 30 overall ranking
Image

Complete overall ranking: Men
Complete overall ranking: Women
Complete overall ranking: Junior boys
Complete overall ranking: Junior girls

This topic is aimed for discussion and comments on the rankings.
Last edited by Hans Koraeus on Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:42 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:33 am

The ranking for 2003 will have a slight advantage for people who entered the West Atlantic Major
in Morro Bay, California. That is why there are many Americans with a good placement in the ranking.
This is because the East Atlantic Major in Antibes, France, didn't have a PRO class.
The top 14 racers all participated in Morro Bay 2003.
Only seven racers that didn't attend managed to get into the top 30.
Only 3 racers that didn't attend any Major at all are in the top 30.
But remember that Morro Bay was titled the World Championships and
that the Americans even in a normal scenario are a big part of the world slalom scene.

Another important factor is getting at least the 8 discipline points you are allowed to count.
The top 8 ranked all have at least 8 discipline points.
There are only 6 racers among the top 20 that doesn't have it (so far).

P.S. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to put an image that wide in the forum.
The forum doesn't handle extreamly wide images very well.
The forum width also gets very wide and lines get wrapped outside the screen and
the Reply button is also outside of the screen. Maybe I should put in a link to that "Top 30" table instead.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:23 am

Just shrunk the "Top 30" image above. Now that looks much better. At least on my screen.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:27 pm

I have had many comments and questions during the early initial process of the World Ranking. I thought it could be a good idea to publish some of them since they often show some of the concerns people may have.

- Counting historical values is not fair. If people would have known about the statuses given maybe some would have entered competitions with higher statuses.
I agree. This will hopefully not be the way to do it in the future. Right now we just want to get something going. It will not be perfect but good enough to give an idea of what a world ranking will look like.

I know some don't like the fact that we used 2003 results and that statuses have been set after the fact. Remember there where those who thought that we should go as far back in time as possible. I think counting at least some of the more important comps in 2003 (that was a good season for international slalom) was a reasonable half way solution. I am aware that it will not be a 100% correct. But hopefully it will create more interest that way.

And even though the overall World Ranking goes over 4 years (2 years full points, 3:rd 50%, 4:th 25%) don't forget that the overall ranking for only the current season will create just as much interest. So every season is in itself a new interesting project each year.

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:13 am

I haven't understood yet why we're not counting all historical values (for the current ranking period). I think those who did race during the last couple of years should be credited too.

No matter what period you use the World ranking is only valid at one point in time anyway. The older results will soon fade out and the previous top racers will slowly descend the ranking ladder unless they continue racing and produce good results.

In my mind it doesn't matter if the racers know, or knew, about the ranking or not. You don't go to races only for the ranking. It's just an additional thing to help you make up your mind.

Excellent work Corky! It's so cool to scroll through the ranking and check out the current standings. I'm also impressed with the total number of participants. And still you've counted only the major events so far. Having the ranking may change the way I look at racing. Initially I was thinking I didn't care about racing too hard and doing well this year, but with the ranking in place, I guess I have to wipe the dust off the board and get out there. I also see that a young lad named Vlad something is just ahead of me. Gotto do something about that!

/Jani

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Post by Adam Trahan » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:30 pm

...unreal.

I appreciate the work that you have put into this.

You have my respect for taking on such a difficult task.

adam

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:47 pm

I have now shortened the width of the image above. I now only show Major and Main competitions. Click on "Here is the male top 30 overall ranking" on top of the image to show the complete width.

Interestingly when doing that I saw that there are a couple of racers that only have entered 2 of these high status competitions and still are among the top 30. Barret Deck (9), Paul Dunn (22), Terence Kirby (23), Charlie Ransom (24), Gary Holl (25) and Chris Barker (30).

That shows that you shouldn't look yourself blind on high status competitions only. All competitions are important. Especially until you reach your 8 disciplines. And of Paul Dunn's 2 none was a Major. There are only 3 by the way that is in top 30 without having entered a Major. Vlad Popov (16), Paul Dunn (22) and Chris Hart (28 ).

Worth mentioning is also that Terence Kirby (23), Charlie Ransom (24) and Gary Holl (25) have only 5 disciplines under their belt.

All the guys mentioned above have lots of potential still and don't be surprised to see them rise in the ranking during the 2004 season.

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Post by Vlad Popov » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:34 am

Corky, bravo! You did it again! Image

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Thanks and a question

Post by Michael Dong » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:57 am

Corky,

Thanks for all of your hard work. This will going a long way towards really making slalom a more international sport.

My question is, is it only 1st, 2nd and 3rd placings that receive points?

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:05 am

Dong,

Everybody gets points. Even those who DQ get points.

For complete rules and point tables look in the Administration: Rules topic.

There you can also ask questions about the rules and Dr Corky will try to answer them. :-)

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:12 am

How come I have more points than Luca in Antibes even though he placed better than me?
As you might have noticed in the Top 30 ranking there are some green fields in the otherwise orange column. This is no mistake. Green color is for competitions with status Main. Orange color is for status Major. There are only 2 Majors for each season. One on the West Atlantic side and another on the East Atlantic side. You can only count one Major per year. So if you have entered the both of them, which is perfectly ok, only one will be counted as Major. The other one will be counted as a Main.

In the ranking this is the case for Luca, Dong and Price. They have got more points in Morro Bay so it is counted as the Major for them and Antibes will therefor be counted as Main. Since Main points are lower than Major point there will be cases where a lower placed racer will get more points than a higher placed racer. This can only happen in a Major though.

How come certain racers have 0 points in the columns?
Only the 8 best points counts per season. For those who have more than 8 results the lowest ones will set to 0. So where you see a 0 it means that the racer attended but the points didn't qualify among the racers 8 best points.

Note! Only Main and Major competitions are shown in the visible ranking avove. That is why the "Rank Total" may look wrong. To see the complete top 30 ranking click on "Here is the male top 30 overall ranking" just above the visible ranking.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:55 am

The World Ranking Golden rules
Remember that the ranking is not necesseraly showing the fastest skater. It is showing the best skater following the current ranking rules. The best skaters according to the current ranking rules are those who...

1. Have entered at least one of the Majors.
2. Have entered at least 3 other competitions with high statuses.
3. Have done well in at least 2 disciplines in these competitions.
4. Have traveled to other regions to compete in more high status competitions.
(You can only count your 8 best ranking points but once you have more than 8 you can exchange better points with lower ones.)

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:30 pm

How come an Am rider can be higher ranked than a Pro rider?
It is possible because the Am points table overlap the Pro points table a little bit. To simplify it, if you are in top 3 you may get more points than some of the lower placed Pro's.

Let's take an example. Noah Heinle has been racing as Am in 2003 and is ranked 14:th. Brent Kosick who races as Pro is in 19th.

In the Noah - Kosick case if we compare the 2 big races they both entered it looks like this
Morro Bay
Noah Am 2 and 3 (870 points), Kosick Pro 18 and 25 (860)
Breckenridge
Noah Am 1 and 1 (660), Kosick Pro 11 and 12 (523)

I checked the qualification times for Morro Bay. In slalom Noah was 1.84 sec faster than Kosick. I think Noah was worth his points. The consensus is that just because you ride the Pro class you are not guaranteed to get better points than the very best Am's. Top Am's are on the edge of becoming Pro's that was showed very clearly in this case with the qualification times. But as a pro you will always get more points than the big majority of the Am's.

This is just one case that came to my attention. If you find others that seem strange I will try to look into them. It might not always be as easy to compare racers as in this case if they race different competitions and courses. The only true comparison is when racers compete in same courses at the same time. That is the idea with only the 2 Majors. Here the best should all be gathered to compete under the same circumstances.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:14 am

I have now added all the competitions I know of, and have some results from, for 2003.

No major changes among the men top 30. Jani moved from 17:th to 12:th. Attila (27:th) moved into the top 30 at the cost of Chris Barker.

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Request to archive rankings

Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Apr 23, 2004 5:41 pm

Corky,

From now on we need to archive the published rankings so that we can see over time how it changes. Would be nice to have complete rankings dated and saved for reference.

For example the current ranking is no longer correct as there are already results to take into account in 2004. Luna Slalom Jam for example. That'll certainly change things as it was assigned Main status I believe.

/Jani

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:44 pm

I have no idea if the east costers want the Luna race as a Main status. Joe Iacovelli tried to get some attention on the subject but no response from his fellow east coasters. Seems to be a sensitive and a very difficult subject. In the end I will be forced to do the selection myself but I would have prefered that each region could handle that themselves. For USA I will use the American Cup as logical Main status competitions if not otherwise is decided by the regions. In that case Luna will be assigned Main status.

The administration of all this will be much easier once we get the web ranking program up and running. Then you could select to see the ranking result at a specific date. And also to compare results against another selected second date. That would be sooo cool.

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Funky Points?

Post by Chris Barker » Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:53 pm

Hey I just got a copy of the new Slalom! magazine and saw these rankings for the first time. I see I'm ranked 31st, but Fluitt is not in the top 50. Then I look ahead of me and see Mike Ohm at 30th. There is something funky there considering that I personally beat Mike Ohm head-to-head twice at Worlds and once at Breck. In the other two Breck events, I think I beat the guy that knocked Mike out. Please explain the details of how he could still be ranked ahead of the Open World Champ.

I'm not picking on Ohm, he just happens to be one of the guys that I have raced the most and is one spot ahead in the rankings and keeping me out of the top-30. I like facing him whenever we meet at the same race. It's always very competitive. I've just never lost to him.

I beat Noah twice at Worlds and he beat me twice at Breck. In other competition like Luna 2004 and JPL/WLAC, Noah has finished ahead of me.
He probably should be ranked ahead of me so that makes sense.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:32 pm

Chris,

The first thing to look at when comparing rankings with someone else is to look at the number of points/disciplines the racers have. Until you have reached 8 it may very well be that the reason of someone is before you in the ranking is that he/she has more disciplines counted and by that a logical advantage over you. In the case with you and Ohm this is the case. You have 6 results and Mike have 7. You have both entered a Major (Morro Bay) where you have better points than him. You have both entered a Main (Breckenridge) where you have better points. You have both entered a Basic competition where you have collected more points. The thing that turn things over in Mikes favor is that he has an extra competition. And that extra competition has on top of it all a Main status (Vista, Da Farm). That's why he jumps up ahead of you. If you would have entered Da Farm and got the same points as Mike you would have moved up to 16:th place just after Noah Heinle in fact. That is probably a better judgement of your skill but remember that the ranking also reflects competition attandence and how much you travel to competitions. There are others in the same situation as you that could have got better points if they had just entered one or two more competitions last year.

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Points

Post by Chris Barker » Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:52 am

Thanks for the explanation. I guess that makes some sense. It's quite an effort to even try to come up with World Rankings and I agree that attending as many events as you can will help grow the competition levels for all races. Can you explain why DaFarm is a "main" and JPL is a "basic". Both were push-start, single lane, best time events. On top of that, they limit the number of attendees to DaFarm to total of 40. By the end of June, they declared it a sell-out and closed the entries. At DaFarm, top 10 riders were: Gilmour, Dong, Mollica, Heinle, McCree, Hollien, TK, Smart, Ohm, UR13. In the two JPL/WLAC events, I raced against the likes of Chicken, Sherman, Richie/David/Rene Carrasco, Heinle, Thomas, O'Shei, Attila, Fluitt, Reid, Kosick, Maysey, Jack Smith, Englund, Carpenter, and other good racers. Why would that competition count for any less?

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Strength of Field

Post by Chris Barker » Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:08 am

I guess what I see missing is any kind of "strength of schedule". I wouldn't want the whole thing turned into something like college football's BCS system, but shouldn't the strength of the field factor into the classification of the races or the amount of points awarded? Outside of Worlds, Breck, and Elsinore, I think the July/Nov JPL/WLAC races had one of the strongest fields, very comparable to Da Farm. Mollica had planned to attend the Nov race, but couldn't make it. That would have added to the case. I am hoping to make it to DaFarm this year. Just waiting for them to finalize the date and get a signup posted so we can make definite plans.

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Strength of schedule

Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:40 am

Chris Barker (and others):

The proposed World Ranking system is supposed to work like this:

1) Before the season starts, contests are anounced.
2) The organizers of those contests are supposed to make "bids" or "cases" as to why their contest should be awarded a certain status.
3) Through some authorized body (or by consensus) it is agreed that contest A gets "Main" status, contest B "Prime", etc.
4) Now, before the season starts everyone can know what the potential is for gaining points at which contest.
5) The racers seeking the highest points might want to go to contests with the highest potential.

Of course, it is not yet working that way because the system is evolving even after the season is underway, and new contests are popping up all over.

The contest status in order of potential points are: Major Main Prime Basic. There are a limited number of each type of contests per region. The region you are talking about is West Atlantic USA West. There has only been one proposal for dividing up the points in that region. You can see that proposal, and make counter-proposals and arguments on the thread titled "WEST ATLANTIC USA WEST".

Of course, we have no main organizing body for races in the USA, so it will probably come down to a consensus of interested people. (Few people have shown an interest so far).

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Points

Post by Chris Barker » Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:54 am

I guess going forward, having race organizers make bids is good. I hope the assumption isn't that every region should get the same number of points to divide among it's races. I got the impression the 2003 points were not based on bids. When I look at how the contests got divided up, DaFarm and W. Virginia got the same points as Breck and Elsinore. I'm assuming the objective must have been to allocate the same number of points to every region regardless of the competition levels at the races. The same looks to be true in 2004, except now it's 3 main/prime for USA-West and 2 main/prime for USA-East. If it is decided to divide USA-East into East and Central, it will make things even screwier if the total points for USA is fixed in World rankings. Why even make a distinction between USA East and West? It just adds to all that contention between these websites and the whole east/west coast banter. Throw all the USA races in the pot and break up the points in the best way. The points allocated between East/West may vary from year to year. Heck we don't consider ourselved in Colorado as East or West. All the piss on this side of the Rockies flows east to the Miss. I like Fluitt's idea with American Cup points to factor attendance into the equation for points.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:41 pm

Chris,

In the first post of this topic you can see the competitions included in the 2003 ranking and the statuses they have got. The same division is planned for 2004. The idea is that people from the corresponding region should handle what status is given to what competition. 2003 being the first ranking year the statuses was not set according to the World Ranking idea, i.e. in advance before the season. 2004 has worked a little bit better for some regions where discussions have taken place. Maybe for 2005 we will be able to set up the status schedule in time before the season starts.

The current split of USA in East and West is my idea. If you like to work for a region called USA including the whole of USA instead you are welcome to do so. I think it's up to you Americans to decide how you want to handle it. In the USA East forum some are talking about going the other way towards the possibility to add a third USA Central region. Whatever the outcome the 5 Mains and 5 Primes should still be the total number of statuses for USA though. The idea with the current system was to encurage people from West traveling to the East and vice versa. Actually the whole World Ranking system is built to encourage traveling to other regions to compete. But as I said. I'm ok with anyway you Americans want to handle the USA region.

Go ahead and start the discussion. Posts about USA region format would preferrably be discussed in the
West Atlantic topic
found in the "World Ranking" section. Or you could join the current discussion in the "USA East topic".

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Post by YOYO SHULTZ » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:30 am

Corky,

I checked the Men's world ranking and could not find me...
My son Philipp is listed twice; in Juniors and Men..
Philipp Schulz is from Germany btw, not Switzerland.

So: Where is YOYO Schulz??

...it was good talking to you in Grüningen.
Hopefully the weather will be better next year!

Ride on,

YOYO
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World Ranking

Post by Bill Wahl » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:21 pm

Corky...who are you?...what a joke your world ranking is..completely wrong. I suggest you stay where you are so you don't get a world #¤% kicking....please do me a favor and remove my name from your retarded list. I know I am not the only one who has requested this. You are an insult to professional skateboarding.

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Rankings

Post by Claude Regnier » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:09 pm

As much as people may or may not like the World Rankings, they serve the purpose of showing that there are Worlwide competitions and competitors.

Maybe someday the standings may truly reflect the riders skill and standings in the Slalom World. For now now this is the Slalom world.

It's not perfect but it is better then nothing when you are trying to pull contests and global organisation together.
Many Happy Pumps!

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Wacked World Ranking

Post by Bill Wahl » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:33 pm

The world rankings serve no purpose if they cannot be accurate. I skate with some of the fastest slalom racers in the world and I can tell you that not one of them believes Corky is even close to accurate. When you have the majority of professional slalom racers saying that the rankings are wrong then that alone should be taken seriously...instead it was ignored and printed in a publication. What a mess, what a fucking joke and a bad hit to the integrity of the slalom magazine and skateboarding alone.

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Post by John Gilmour » Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:11 am

Wahl,

If the fields are so easy then all you would have to do to get a good ranking is travel and attend a few contests. Unfortunately...it is difficult to do well at many different venues and courses.

Many have made the trek to Breck and MB. It isn't unreasonable to want to motivate others to travel to other venues as well.

It wouldn't make much sense to have the world ski tour just stay in Austria and Switzerland for instance (despite the high local talent concentration). It is a lot nicer when the competitors move about to different venues. It makes it a sport- as opposed to a local's pastime.

So one way we motivate skaters to travel is through points. Chicken is ranked very highly- and he hasn't flown around to many slalom contests- but had Chicken attended just two contests outside of The USA it is likely he would have ranked higher- and certainly displaced me in total points. Certainly Chicken is ranked high regardless, so it is not impossible to have a high ranking and stay in the Western USA.

With skaters going to different venues- it enables local skaters to more easily "test" challenge the visiting skaters and get more involved- if they do well they will be motivated to enter the World Championships. It motivates them to throw better contests to make the trip worthwhile.

Lets look at Luna for instance.

I did not go. But the promoter really wanted to do a good job. I spoke with Mrs. Chapman (one of the mom's of one of the families competeing, Ben Chapman is her son) she was very impressed with the level of skating and the overall presentation and organization of Luna. She thought the slalomers were a great group of people- so much so....that as a Mom she has decided to pick up the sport herself and try to compete. She and her husband Glen are backing their son to several races as a result (And I believe their very young daughter Millie will race as well). Mrs. Chapman was able to see how her son faired against some very good skaters. This convinced her to invest her time and money into the sport to encourage her kid to do well. She and her husband are very excited about slalom racing- and this excitement has grown since going to Luna and meeting the Florida skaters, Fluitt, and others.

They drove to Luna from Gloucester Mass (God knows how long a drive that is ....16+ grueling hours?), and met some relatives that drove to meet them there from Florida. Would they have driven to California? Doubtful. Would they have flown there? No. But this drive was doable. So they went to the trouble to drive a long way to see their son compete- who BTW is ranked top 5 in the Snowboard Nationals for racing. They got a great skater deal on hotel rooms that were normally more than $200 per night for the whole family (rooms were discounted to 1/2 price and 3rd night was free so the whole cost was about $200 for a great weekend of racing for a new enthusiastic family) I think Red Bull subsidized some costs. Having great racers show up from afar- makes Red Bull and other sponsors get involved.

After this Luna experience the Chapmans are flying to the Hood River race as well as Breckenridge and Morro Bay. Glen Chapman is another Dad who races.

If you take the time to talk to them- I think you'll understand how important seeing other top skaters at Luna was, and having a points system ...even if it only draws as few as 4 top traveling skaters to an event - is worth it for the promoters and the attending local skaters.

The points system asks that you travel out of your region for perhaps only 2 weekends per year. I would think that is pretty affordable- especially when sponsors like Red Bull step up to the plate to make it possible. For the Chapmans it was more affordable than visiting Luna on vacation (they saved over $400 in hotel costs)- and they had a great time.

(-That is only one example of a single family. Without kids and enthusiastic families- the sport will die within 10 years.)

In time we should see more sponsor particpation (even if marginal)....and perhaps payouts that are larger and go deeper in the placings. At that point- it may be financially worthwhile for skaters in say...... places 1-12 to attend more contests- assuming that they could win some cash at at least 1/3 of the races.

It will take a bit for this to work- but I do have faith that it will work- all it takes is about 4 or more top skaters to travel to each race. As the ranking continues it should become more reflective of who would beat who on "average". The more contests the more accurate it should become. I don't expect it to be accurate to 3 places. But certainly if someone was ranked 10 people below you I would hope you could expect you could beat him more than 2/3 of the time. The ranking only truly becomes accurate if ALL racers attend ALL races...this simply won't happen. The ranking tries to accommodate this by only counting your best results (assuming you enter several contests per year). It isn't an attendance ranking- it is weighted to show your BEST results. If you have many results and a few of them are good- your ranking will be better than if you have too few results.


Frankly- I'm sure it makes the promoters feel more rewarded when they see that skaters make the effort to travel long distances to their contests- they feel appreciated- just as I am sure if you ask Jack Smith he feels more appreciated when he sees skaters traveling from England, Trinidad, Australia, Sweden, France, Italy, the East Coast, Switzerland to his races. I think other promoters will feel similarly appreciated when skaters from Europe and California attend their contests. If the points system makes promoters feel more motivated to throw better and bigger contests IMHO it is a good thing.

As the ranking continues, I think you'll see ranking adjust to reflect the skill level of the skaters more. I wonder for instance....how many points Olson has picked up by going to Europe. Certainly his sponsors are happy he went and likely his board sales will go up a little as a result.


- and BTW if you look at your average points per race---you have a very high average score of 409 points...not many are in your club.... it is just that you only have 4 results out of a possible 8 counting towards your score. Only 11 people score as high as you on average. so if you were to attend 4 more races and score about the same...you would be in the top 10.
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Post by Rick Stanziale » Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:44 pm

Good explanation.

I believe we all understand the World Rankings. I think I'm next to last of all the people who actually have 8 races to count.

But that's the point. How can someone be considered a professional (that's another thread entirely) skateboard racer if they aren't participating in as many races as possible?

The next great controversy will be when Fluitts series wraps up this fall. There is no way to place in the top ten without traveling outside of California.

And Wahl, no disrespect intended to the level of skateboarding in California........that's undeniable.

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World Ranking

Post by Bill Wahl » Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:03 pm

I support the idea of a ranking system. I support the good intentions. I do not agree with the formula and especially printing it in a publication when it is as subjective as it is. I am not the only skater who believes it is a joke and completely inaccurate. I have spoke with numerous slalom skateboarders who believe the rankings do not reflect overall talent as much as it does attendence. I'm just one who is willing to say something about it here online. In regards to your statement about pro skateboarders Rick. That is another topic entirely and it is very subjective as well. But the bottom line is that it is no longer about a skateboard company paying someone salary or sending thier team to Europe. Especially slalom skateboarders. There are only a handfull of racers who are lucky enough to get that type of treatment. It has more to do with talent. Charlie Ransom may only race LaCosta and Morro Bay in 2004. But he has the talent and can step up anytime and be on the podium any race anywhere and take the cash. TS, Hybrid, GS and Super G. His talent makes him one of the fastest all around PRO/Elite skateboarders in the world. We know who is fast in Europe and who can or can't skate steep grades as well as flat TS courses. Pro skateboarding is not what it once was. I've been there. I know.

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Ams ranking versus Pro ranking?

Post by Bill Wahl » Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:33 pm

Corky,

You are ranking ams higher than pros based on their times and placing? Numbers cannot be denied. But the circumstances when racing against someone like Steve Olson and Chicken who are the fastest starters out of a gate change dramatically. No disrespect to an am racer but if you put him up against someone who is more capable of a mind game, or forcing mistakes because you are rushed to get good start etc. The hill and course may be the same but the times could be much different based off of the competition. I have won races against fast skaters such as John G. because of errors on his part. I have made my own huge errors and have changed strategies specifically to each racer. I just believe there is more to it than times. I believe the outcome would be different if the am was racing in the pro class. Perhaps he would be faster or slower...but the circumstances would be different. And that should be considered and thus the ams should be separated from the pros until it is their time to race as a pro. There is no shame to be an am Corky.

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Post by Troy Smart » Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:23 pm

I for one am very impressed with the way Corky has done this.
Seems to be extremely well thought out and just about flawless.
Sure there are some people ranked low who shouldn't be and vice versa but there is a reason for this.
It's not perfect and never will be.
No ranking system is.
But it's pretty damn good. You can't argue with that.
It's new.
The more racing that happens the more sense it will make.
Corky's doing a great thing here.
Don't rag on it just because you think you and your buddies should be ranked higher.

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Post by John Gilmour » Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:42 pm

I agree with Bill Wahl that in Duals racing- certainly head games are a factor. And this alone would make the groups function better separately.

Likely you do have to separate the Ams from the pros in the ranking- if you want to show the results combined to avoid confusion it should be only after the separate classes are ranked and not shown without that. If the classes are combined it should also be explained that this is not a true ranking....mostly because the Pro and Am contests are run at different times of the day (with possibly different race conditions) and results may not be comparable directly.

I think it is valid to say that facing Charlie Ransom in the course is more likely to mess up your game than facing an AM.

Also AMs with good attendance likely should not make pros with lesser attendance get forced down in the ranking.

Realistically after about 3 more months of racing since results for both this year and last year count for 100% points (no loss of results) most of the people with fewer than 8 results will have completed the necessary 8 results (see how the ranking is calculated for details) at that point the ranking will start looking more like something that people will feel is correct. For instance Wahl now is moved down by many people who I feel he would regulary beat at least 2/3 of the time in competition some of those are AMS who likely should not be included in the same ranking as the Pros.

Though in other ranking systems cummulitive atendance was nearly "unlimited" (Making it possible for a lower ranked competitor to be ranked very highly if they merely attendended all the races)....in this model- attendance is "limited" to only needing a total of 8 results in two years, 4 per year would be the average...though one could do 8 races in one year and immediately get a good ranking...

A racer could do six races in one year and 2 in the next. Etc...

Since the older results fade out.... as old results beyond 3 years are reduced by a percentage...a racer can not rest on his laurels forever. It encourages some regularity of particpation to maintain a ranking...but does not force the racer to continuously race every race and get burnt out.

Likely there will be a way to take off a season ....not all new mom's are as easy going as Robin Mollica. And for the skating Mom's this is really important as I personally don't want to see any pregnant moms getting hung up on the gates.

How about seeing a ranking of racers according to their average results Pros and Ams separated? Just curious Hans.

Perhaps this is what we should go by until enough racers get 8 results.
I really don't care where it bumps me to so long as the ranking looks better for this snapshot in time. I merely did well because I traveled to many different venues and did well in a few of them. As a TS enthusiast I found TS was the more prevalent course set up as I traveled and likely my results reflect that. Though my GS win at Breck probably got me the most points.
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:31 am

Yoyo,

You are in the ranking (398) with only 1 result (Weisbaden). Your son is 297:th with 2 results. The problem with you and some others are that many results from Grüningen 2003 are missing. I believe you are in this case. You were at that contest in 2003 but your results are missing. Do you remember what you placed?

Bill and John,

My original idea was to mix everybody in one ranking only separating men and women. For the mag I just filtered out the best juniors in separate listings. Separating Pro's and Am's are easy in Pro/Am competitions. But what about the most common Open format then. Are they considered as Pro or Am results? Having pro's and am's in the same listing was a way to get around this. Pro results points are higher than Am result points. Open results is now treated as Am result points but should be treated somewhat higher. This will soon be proposed as a change to the current ranking system. The Am points does overlap the pro points a little bit. For what I saw at competitions at the time this seemed correct. Still does. Am's winning are on the edge to turn pro. Some may get a minor boost by this on a season if winning a lot. But if you win a lot you will soon find this guy will be riding with the pro's so you can't (and racer probably don't want) make use of this situation on a long term basis. Pro's will in general get more points than Am's anyway. Some are jumping between Pro and Am classes also. This was a way to tackle this problem too. If your pro days are over and you start to feel left behind in the pro class after a couple of years there is nothing in the ranking system stopping you from going down to the Am class again. If you again start to win some Am competitions it's time to step up in the pro class again. It may depend on the competition too. Some racing pro in not so big Pro/am's might race am in the worlds. This is the case already and is no problem for the ranking.

Again the main problem is that people look at the ranking as only a ranking of how good a slalomer you are. This you can only do after you have gathered your 8 best results (max 2 per competition) per year. When this is the case it should be the level of the skater that starts to get filtered out. Before that it is more a question of attendance. The system forces you to enter at least 4 competitions (with minimum 2 disciplines) per year. I think this is not too much to demand of someone who wants to fight for a good world ranking placement. The other thing is to select competitions with higher and higher statuses when your skill increase. There is a system with a limited number of competition statuses per year that is spread out in different world regions. This is done so that you will not be forced to go to every single competition. Instead the idea is that traveling to 4 competions a year is what you need. Going to others may help boost your point but only if your 8 best result points are affected. The system is also done to encourage traveling to other regions to compete. If Luca would just enter the World championships and win he could prove that he is the best slalomskater but if that is the only thing he does in a year I don't think he is not worth being no 1 on the world ranking. For that you have to enter more competitions and support the slalom scene and competition organizers. I think this system will encoruage people to compete more and travel more. I am sure this has been the case in Europe so far. Those traveling to competitions should be awarded because they help support the slalom scene. After 4 competitions the skill start to take over the ranking point power.

When we get the ranking database up and running you will be able to list results on Pro, Am, disciplines, regions, nations and the like.

Note that even though the ranking is printed in the latest Slalom! mag it says it is the inofficial world ranking. I think it was still a good thing to get the word out and to make more people react to the idea. If you read the ranking you can also see the average point for the racers. This is to be able to see that there are good racers lower down in the ranking that has not reached the 8 discipline results level.

Note that the current ranking showed is the 2003 ranking. After this year there will be a 2004 ranking. There will also be the big overall ranking counting results over the last 4 years. Some new changes will be proposed for this ranking format very soon.

For an overview of how the world ranking works check out the world ranking overview.

For more info check out the different topics in the World ranking section.

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Post by YOYO SHULTZ » Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:34 am

Hans,

Grueningen 2003 results are somewhere at home on my laptop.
I will dig them out. They are the original copy of the Excel spreadsheet from Dan that was used at the race.

Later and thanks,

YOYO
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:05 pm

Yoyo, you are bringing us some breaking news! Those results was thought to have been lost forever. This is really great news. The organizers will be thrilled to hear about that.

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Post by John Gilmour » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:19 pm

Hans,

I see what you mean about riders who are on the Cusp of going pro.

I see a few ways to do this.


One perhaps is to have the racer start with a clean slate once he goes pro. It might be more frustrating to do this- but the impetus would be that racers would gear up to switch in a particular season and really make the effort to go to many comps that first season to move up.

(Or perhaps one way to give an Am a "running start" would be to transfer only 75% of his points once he turns pro. In this way it is not a waste of money in earning points by racing in AM first...which of course should happen) Ideally we wouldn't want an entering AM to come in at teh top without ahving raced the top pros, likely the Am would enter near teh bottom. But it would be nice if the Am did not start at the very bottom of Pros with zero points if the Am is fast he should be able to readily progress upward through the pro ranks without having to race for a year and still be at the bottom in an effort to collect points.

The Pros can have their own separate ranking. In that only Pros should be in that ranking. Ideally a racer should win in AM before going Pro. At the bottom of Pro should be a few seasoned veterans who if they like can stay in pro or if they want to proceed further into the brackets return to AM (Which might be fun for Ams to face "Legends") At some point we may need a Legends class.

In other sports I am not so sure Amatuer status wins transfer to helping to rank in the Pro ranks. Realistically the only way to see how an AM would fair racing against the Pros is to use results from racing the PROS, Not AMS. A pro with a great racing strategy can displace an even faster pro (though perhaps you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time) I've seen it happen several times. (Perhaps a partial points transfer will suit our sport well without disrupting the Pro ranking much until attendance by the pros is filled out).


Finally A contest is a "Snapshot in time of ranking at that particular day"

A "World ranking is a "snapshot in time" as well......only that time interval is longer- 4 years as opposed to a day. Its like a contest series (with different mixes of racers at different venues) where only your top 8 results count.
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Post by Bill Wahl » Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:57 pm

Combining Ams with Pros is completely wrong. Gilmour made some very good points. From my experience I have never seen Ams combined in points with Pros. I have competed in both skateboarding and surfing in Pro/Am events where I was given the chance to measure my talent against others. A good example of this would be JPL or WLA. Even at a venue such as WLA an Am should be awarded for his placing even if he is not in the top Three. He should be awarded seperately for his efforts against the other Ams. So if he was six among a field of twenty but five pros were ahead of him, he still should be awarded first place as the Am and given equal points as the first place Pro. (Pro and Ams in seperate categories should recieve equal points. Keep it simple) The idea of a Pro Am is not to mix the points between the competitors. It is to allow the Ams an opportunity to measure thier talent against the pros on that given day, thus earning their respective Am points. They should still be seperate. Regarding an Am changing his status. It should be a clean slate. There should be NO points given to the Am. He is responsible for his discision and it should be timely. He may be more talented, but his racing circumstances, competitors and many many more factors will be different and this should all be considered. He should not enter into the Pro division with a ranking other than LAST. When I started surfing Pro events ten years ago I dropped $125.00 to get spanked and sent home after my first 20 minute heat. No complaints, I just worked harder at it and eventually made it to several finals. Now that I am older slower etc.. It only made sense for me to drop my Pro status and enter the Grand Masters division which is 37 and older. It is still very very competitive because everyone is so experienced and strong. But it is still not at the Pro level. So all this rambling can perhaps be looked at as constructive. I don't know, but I believe it supports Gilmours idea of a "Lengends" field or as surfing would call it Grand Masters. Reinstating yourself back as a pro should have its requirements as well. It should not be as simple as ordering an HBO fight the day before. A minimum amount of time should be required or certain race results. This would not allow locals to go pro just prior to thier hometown race.

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Racer Ranking

Post by Bill Wahl » Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:16 pm

Since I'm on a rambling roll. Let me please just mention this opinion or idea of mine that I beleive would have been a better start to the ranking mess Corky has started.

Put every Am and Pro racer seperated in thier categories on a list. Next to each racers name allow the appropriate space to rank them in each disipline. TS, Hybrid, GS, Super G and Banked Slalom. The ranking is done by every slalom racer in the world based on thier knowledge of the competitor. If they do not know enough to fairly rank the competitor then a default number would be given. Something low but fair. Total the ranking points and give each competitor their total "Value"

Remember this is just to start things from ground zero. So when Kenny Mollica enters the JPL race of a high Value ranking along with the likes of Ritchy, Steve Olson, Chicken etc...All with thier respective rankings. This would then give a total value to the JPL event based off of a democratic system, instead of someone like Corky who making bad assumtions as what the ranking should be. The competition is what should drive the value of each event. Not the size of the event, the region or even the amount of competitors. Perhaps the Eurpeans can have a seperate Value system and when they or us decide to travel then perhaps points can be added to thier "Value" becuase they have now helped mix the field of racers from abroad...This is just an idea..something I think would have been a better start than just Corky making assumtions about races and thier rankings...So take it or leave it...I'll still be racing .

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:02 pm

Bill,

I like reading your point of view, but I have edited out all your foul language.

Like it or not but we decided to keep this site somewhat tidy for generations to come.

/Jani

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Post by Rick Stanziale » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:08 pm

The quick and dirty solution is to sort racers by their average score (something that was vehemently opposed to when I applied averaging to FCR totals).

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Censorship

Post by Bill Wahl » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:08 pm

Jani,

You have just stepped way out of line censoring my posts. For the sake of "generations to come" you should leave it in. Your weak ideals of what is right or pleasant to you is not in our futures best interest. Your idea of a "Tidy" forum is only YOUR Opinion. NCDSA has made an absolulte joke of itself by beginning any sort of censorship. You only make things worse by empowering yourself and others to "Tidy" things up. Since you think it is important to do this. Then I have just as much right to enforce my opinion on you anyway I desire. And I promise you it won't be in a literacy fashion. You have now made it a personal issue by doing this. I don't give a F---K what you think about my posts or whatever I decide to write in this forum, so don't bother.

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Post by John Gilmour » Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:47 am

Ha ha ha- I missed the swearing. I personally think the swearing is funny- though I cringe when trying to refer parents to any site with bad language.

Anyhow- Bill I totally see your point. But I would want to discourage people from entering the pro ranks too early. Not giving any AM points might make a person enter the pro division early (And by definition he enters at the bottom) when in actuality- they could never win an AM race.

I understand you paid your dues going from AM surfing status to PRO by having to start over. Did you have to WIN a AM surfing event before you declared PRO? If so...then starting with zero points is OK...aaaaaaaaaaaaaand likely the best thing as you suggested. If you don't have to win an AM event before going pro....then I think Points could be pro rated to give racers a better option of waiting until thier skill level improves before going pro.

Were you happy with the Surfing ranking? Would it be applicable to our ranking? And if so do you think it would work better? I am not familiar with it. (I am curious as what happens when you have a concentration of surfing talent in a small place, can those competitors stay ..... and still do well in the ranking and not travel?)

In reference to separateing the disciplines... IT is a little difficult when some disciplines might be misnamed. The Bob Turner Memorial for instance at best could be called Hybrid or straight GS (Oxymoron)- ISSA tried to define the disciplines- but again it becomes difficult. Should a crappy GS on a flat hill be given the same weight as a good gs on a steep hill? Should a slow non technical TS grunter be given the same weight as a high speed tech ts on a steep hill? It is hard to judge....so the contests are weighted as opposed to the disciplines. Some Euro GS I've run would pass for some California TS...the lines are blurred.


I am impressed you are so into the ranking and looking for a solution- and I think if you keep at it and others join in- we may see some ideas that we may not have considered yet.

Basically- we have a bunch of results and we are trying to make sense of them as best we can. Nothing is perfect....but we hope to get as close as possible. I think it possible to get closer than what Hans has at the moment...but I also believe that as more results come in and more racers adapt to the system- Hans' system will yield a more accurate ranking the other previous rankings. Also Hans is open to suggestions and his goal is the same as yours-...an accurate ranking. He just hasn't had time to do all the possibilities. The goal of his ranking is not just to rank the skaters but to encourage skaters to go to more competitions- and not limit themselves to skating in their backyard (remember my Swiss and Austria Ski team analogy?)


BTW- if some AM points transfer......it is possible for the AM to still be at the very bottom of the pros, but ready to move up....and not from zero.

For instance...if Two AMS decided to enter Pro say Chris Stepanek (Ranked 129) with 620 points (2 comps) and Glenn S (ranked 283) 244 points (2 comps)- you wouldn't want both of them to start at zero you would expect the one with more points to have a bit of a lead. Certainly you could start them at Zero- but this would result in a skewed ranking. If we were to reduce their AM points by 1/2 in pro class even Chris Stepanek wouldn't rank higher than #235 Pär Svensson of Sweden- so certainly no Pro would be displaced by these ams taking 1/2 of their points with them.

I'm sure this system will improve with time. It is my hope that the ranking works way way down the list. It is far more exciting to move up from #312 to #89 than to go from #9 to #8.
Last edited by John Gilmour on Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Etienne de Bary » Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:35 pm

Thanx John for your moderate point of view once again, of course for some it must be hard to understand why this "world ranking" is quite unlike the "World Championship" results. There are top racers all over this planet, and that is why Corky had to build a system that would transcend local hierarchies. That is an achievement in itself, and it is surprisingly acurate too as a matter of fact, and it will become more acurate as more results will be considered (though a listing by average value would be close to my subjective idea, maybe I do not value consistancy that much ?)
This site is a bit "overmoderated" and it probably has to be, as long as US people as average will have this "patriotic" relational problem, ... so to keep this forum international, moderators have no other solution than erase all agressive declarations. (But maybe the real problem is that everybody is a bit too polite to their potential sponsor, when not mad with rage, isn't it ?)
California hosts quite a bunch of top bravest pro racers, ... but I wouldn't hesitate saying the same of the Swiss/Italian axe, and there is the British too, and so and so...
Bill, your "Joe beats Jack" considerations have no value, some guys who are in the 30th rank or so have beaten Luca, Kenny or John once or twice, it does not mean they are number one.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:12 pm

I will start responding on world ranking rules comments in the World Ranking rules topic.

This topic was intended more for ranking comments like "Why is Mr X before me in the ranking?", "How is my point calculated?" and "The ranking sucks!".

Funny is that I haven't got a single comment from Europeans that the ranking in 2003 is skewed in the USA (Californian) direction. This because of the worlds in California was the largest point producer. Never heard any complaints about Maurus Strobel and Chris Hart (some of the fastest skaters in the world) are ranked low. And they have never complained about it. They just realize that, "Hey, seems like I didn't compete enough last year. Better change that for 2004." And so they have. They don't automatically blame the ranking for not having a higher placement in the ranking. They blame themselves.

All this about I beat him so I should be higher ranked is so hard to judge. I did beat Ramon Königshausen last year. Now he is one of the fastest racers in Europe. Unfortunatley I'm far from that myself. Some competitions you do well other you might not. It's so complicated that I will not even try and explain it all. It may depend on the discipline, the course, the weather, you traveled all day before, it's your home spot, got a new board, wrong wheels a.s.o. a.s.o.

The ranking will reflect the world ranking rules. If you are a very good slalomer and you have competed the minimum requested of you then I would be surprised if you where not at the top of this ranking. If you haven't competed enough your point will not be accurate. The average point can give a hint of the caliber of the racer but having few competitions may skew even that. Tay Hunt for example has the best average of everyone since he did very well in his only counted competition last year, the Worlds. This doesn't mean he would have been number 1 if he had competed more. The more you compete the harder it is to maintain a high average. His "true" ranking is imossible to know until he competes more.

It's true that the top amateurs can be placed before pro's in the ranking. Or even an amateur that competes a lot can be before a pro that competes rarely. In the second case it's not the am's fault but rather the pro's fault for not competing enough. In the first case an Am running home a lot of top placements will get well awarded. Better than some of the medium pro's. But this you will not be able to do for more than one season. Beacuse then it's up to the pro's and prove yourself. It may also be a good thing to show that it is not because you call yourself a pro that you will be faster than all the better Am skaters. Even though you will always have an advantage racing pro in general. I think this is ok. If you want to call yourself a pro and race with the pro's you will be awarded positivly even though you may be slower than many Am's.

The so called "Legends" class already exist in the ranking rules. The age limit is set to 45 and up for the moment but we don't have a good measurement of what the age limit should be. For the moment some of the fastest skaters out there are quite old...

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Post by Etienne de Bary » Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:42 pm

Hans Koraeus wrote:The age limit is set to 45 and up for the moment
That leaves me little time... :(

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World Spanking

Post by Bill Wahl » Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:36 pm

John,

Regarding the surfing ranking system. There is more than one competitive surfing association. I surfed in different west coast series over the years, but never qualified for the elite top 44 who surf competitive at world wide locations. To reach that level you have to qualify in a smaller yet very competitive series. Aside from that series there are also other series for the non world travelers who have a career or are older but like to remain completitive from time to time. Each year/series everyone started with zero points and your finish determined your ranking. The top 44 got a specific seading because they out rank the rest of the pros in some of the bigger Pro/Am events. This required a lessor ranked pro to move through the qualifying rounds and surf much more to be given the chance to go up against the top ranked 44. If you jumped into the pro field from an Am status you started with zero points and there was no transfer points or win requirements because the truth tells all. If you aren't ready you will get spanked and sent home very quickly. No age limits etc in Pro Surfing. But as an Am there is. I don't believe we can apply many surfing rules and ranking to slalom racing. I believe we could do better by taking a closer look to the skiing/snow boarding associatations. I don't think we will ever have the world wide mix of pros from Europe and the US racing each other. I'm sure this is Corkys intention, but a very unrealistic one. That is why I have been saying we should approach this differently. Hence the word WE not Corky and his small bunch of clowns who are deciding the future of world slalom ranking. I'm wondering why there isn't an organization and a democratic system to creating something that can maybe have some substance and integrity. But then again what am I thinking when I can't even post my feelings or articulate as I like without being censored because some fat foolio thinks skateboarding needs to be PG13. What a dream world you old f#¤kers are living in. Skateboarding will never change. You only fuel the fire by being little girls. John that was for you....xoxoxoxoxosillybilly.

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World JOKer

Post by Bill Wahl » Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:50 pm

Corky,

Your Euro lovers are not complaining because they know that there are only a handful that can really be compeititive in the Pro/Am divisions on steep grades. So whatever thier placings are I'm sure they are creaming thier tight euro jeans over it and not going to stir the pot fearing their talent won't even be recognized because they are less likely to travel then we are. Like I said only a hand full and you aren't one of them. I really like how you have ranked your races and yourself. Nice touch. Couldn't be further from reality. Like I say Kooky. There is no shame being an Am. I know it doesn't look as good on paper being seperated from the Pros and thus really showing where you stand. But it needs to be done. You need to rethink your very flawed system.

Bill Wahl
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Location: USA

Post by Bill Wahl » Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:17 pm

How come an Am rider can be higher ranked than a Pro rider?
It is possible because the Am points table overlap the Pro points table a little bit. To simplify it, if you are in top 3 you may get more points than some of the lower placed Pro's.

Let's take an example. Noah Heinle has been racing as Am in 2003 and is ranked 14:th. Brent Kosick who races as Pro is in 19th.

In the Noah - Kosick case if we compare the 2 big races they both entered it looks like this
Morro Bay
Noah Am 2 and 3 (870 points), Kosick Pro 18 and 25 (860)
Breckenridge
Noah Am 1 and 1 (660), Kosick Pro 11 and 12 (523)
This post makes me sick!. What an idiot Corky is. Racing as an Am is completely different that racing as a Pro. Times don't mean a thing!. Kosick is one of the top GS racers on the West Coast. And he has proven it at La Coast, WLA etc.... His times at Morro Bay and his few races entered mean nothing considering the competition he has raced against at La Costa, WLA and JPL. Noahs points in a Am bracket should have NO impact on his placing in the Pro bracket. He should enter a ZERO and be forced to earn his Pro Status/Ranking...Kosick no doubt should not only be ranked higher than Noah but higher in the Pro standings period based off of his race results against a higher caliber of west coast pros.

Gary Fluitt
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points

Post by Gary Fluitt » Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:19 pm

I haven't had time to catch up on this whole thread, but I have some thoughts to share.

1. You can't merge Ams and Pros into the same ranking system. Have you heard the term "Comparing apples to oranges"? They must be separated or the whole thing is irrelevant. Can you imagine World Cup Skiing rankings merging Juniors and Pro in the same system?
In races where pros and opens are racing together in one big love fest, the Ams are competing with pros for the same few points. The Ams are not going to do as well as the pros presumably. So their points are not going to be very high either. It's a level playing field then. You get what you get when you enter a heterogeneous race (pros and Ams racing together).

Personally I think the pro/open distinction is pointless. There is not enough money in the pros to even call it that. Very few races actually separate these riders so how is your level determined? Self proclamation?
There are better ways to group riders of like ability to make for good expert racing, good sport racing, and good recreational racing.
I know this has little to do with Corky's points system, but it's bugging me.

2. You must announce the points criteria start of the season. You can't arbitrarily pick them out after the season is over. This will no doubt leave some races out of the points, but pardon the pun, that IS the point. Let us know what you're going to count and what doesn't count so I can choose wisely.

3. Points don't mean much unless there is money or prizes involved. Paul Dunn won the 2002 FCR series, and didn't get a penny for that title. Who cares? Paul does no doubt, but it didn't have much impact on his career. He retired the following year. The American Cup series will pay something to the series winner. It may not be much, and it may come out of my pocket, but there will be some meaning to the points winner.


So in SUMMARY- Don't mix Pros with Ams, Announce the Points Races in advance of the season, Make the points count toward SOMETHING.

Wahl - Come to Hood. I want to watch you skate that Ramp in the old lumber mill again. You were killing it 2002.

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