Newbie...dialing things in......huge progress....i got it

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Lawrence Kurtz
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Newbie...dialing things in......huge progress....i got it

Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:18 pm

Big progress last night and thanks for all the tips.

I think the big one was switching out the RTX for the Bennett. I added the spacer (still have to shim the axle but the height is perfect). Tonight i will get some aluminum or copper sheet and install it inside the spacer.

I left the wedging the same as with the rtx....so maybe wedging was one of the issues. Anyways...i used a white khiro barrel outer and orange khiro inner barrel over the spacer. Its loose but very controllable.

I then tested out some rear bushing combos as suggested. First the yellow khiro barrel inner and black khiro barrel outer. It kind of felt really dead. I think cause of the short kingpin i had to really put pressure on the bushings just to seat enough thread. I switched the inner barrel to the red khiro barrel and the yellow outer barrel and felt a little better but still tight.

Switched the rear yellow barrel to try yellow cone outer...way too squirelly. I think partly cause of the height of the barrels and length of the kingpin.
...the rear end felt like it was overturning for some reason and i was overshooting as i swung my hips and arms as in the videos to drive the board.

so after trial and error I tried the original black tracker outer cone with the red khiro inner barrel...and after playing with tension, seemed to give great feel....a little flex in the rear but not too much....Im also trying the rear yellow barrel and inner and that tracker cone outer and the feel is pretty good. what i like is the adjustability with tension in controlling the rear trucks.

Nice balance in keeping my momentum.

So..the result....my street has very mild slope and moderate asphalt. I gave a 2 pushes and let the board drift to see where it would go...it went about 200m then stopped.

then 2 pushes and driving the board.....I would say i kept that board going for 6-700m before a hill stole all the momentum...i did get up a little bit....turned around and pushed back a bit.

Definitely can feel how the timing of hip and upper body movement controls the momentum of the board.....like using your legs to drive a swing back and forth....if u mess up the timing....speed starts to drop

Coming to work today...I took my board....from the train station.....completely flat...no wind, 5-600m....with sidewalk, pedestrians to dodge.....1 push and all the rest from the pumping....i could even feel myself accelerate the board...amazing.

Only things left to do....put a foot stop on with a spare bushing to control my front foot which keeps sliding forward.

I also tried some cones today...spacing 7 feet....i tried the same thing but i think the front truck was overturning slightly causing me to lose speed....but first things first....learn to pump...

Anyways...thanks everyone....I'll keep u updated.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:25 pm

Lawrence,

Just remember one thing as you continue to slalom: don't hesitate to try anything.

If you start thinking about bushing combination or truck wedging or whatever, just do it and see if it works. Too many times a skater will not do the out-of-the-ordinary because no one else has tried it.

Try to not let that kind of thinking get in the way of YOU going faster and having a more successful set up. I can guarantee you that NO ONE ELSE SKATES EXACTLY LIKE YOU DO. So it stands to reason there will be differences in how you set up and ride your board. So don't think twice about experimenting and trying those differences.

And, if they don't work so well, go back to where you were before. Doing it, though, is going to be 10 times better than not doing it.
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Eric Brammer
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Good progress!

Post by Eric Brammer » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:29 am

Lawrence, good to hear about your gains ! It is an awkward, even frustrating, 'progression' from making simple turns into the realm of 'pushing' turns. Commitment, but also a sense of 'feel', then also adding enough change in variety of turns, pitch of slope, and available grip, these "little" subtileties are what make racing intriguing, or (depending on your POV) frustrating to get a grip on. You've got a really good start on the basics, and you'll likely make good progress from here.
Sorry if I've gone 'over-the-top' on info or technique; it's a complex sport in the variety of equipment, variety of courses, and even in the venues offered. Racing on snow with a snowboard meant for racing actually is easier to deal with in terms of variables thatre with the rider's control; Honestly, I think only windsurfing or streetluge have more 'IFs' in their variables from race-to-race.
Meanwhile, work on the pump, get it fluid and really clean (btw, look for 'four wheels down' video by Gesmer, very dramatic pumping shown in that)In that video, I love the inner shoulder being angulated Up to the inside of the turn, something that's used in many similar sports to great effect. Once you've got the pump figured out, the world's your oyster.At that point on, you'll just then need to adjust your equipment by small degrees to suit the change in grip or hill pitch.
"Surfin' these Old Hills since back in The Day"

Lawrence Kurtz
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Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Mon May 04, 2009 6:55 am

More updates...still playing with the rear truck. I'm thinking i might dewedge it a little more. What will be the effect of dewedging? As far as the bennett. I had two regular short khiro cones and when paired up against the stock bennett long barrel, they were just a tad short by a mm or so. I had a spare bushing cup and it appeared to make up the diffence, so i installed it. I stacked an orange cone over the red one (i know a little hard but its all i had), Then i replaced the white khiro barrel back on the outer. I tightened up the rear truck. Then pumped on a nearly flat surface for 500m or so. I was quite tired by the end. My pumps are rather tight and short....anything wrong with that? Good news is I went on a basketball court and i was able to maintain my pump continuously first 1 way then the other. Totally freaked my 6 year old out when he stood in the center as i pumped circles around him.

So....next question is how do i achieve longer flowing pumps and more endurance. I also notice that if i use too hard a rear set up that the rear trucks tend to lift off the surface on hard turns.

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Post by Stephen Lavin » Tue May 05, 2009 12:21 am

LK; the de-wedge will "deaden" that rear more. Not sure how much you weigh so this info may not be very valuable on this question. I am thinking you are lifting a wheel but not to worry because likely this is happening at very reduced speeds right? Maybe that rear is a bit too high as well. Speed up and see if you still feel or experience that problem after a de-wedge.

On the flow and longer pumps I think you will feel this come naturally as your speed picks up. It is real hard to get lower frequency, low amplitude and low speed pumps, and have some forward motion. Try using your arms more with dramatic motions at first so you can feel the swing in your pump. As you speed up bend in the knees more and swing those arms and then try lower frequency and lower amplitude pumping to maintain the momentum.

On the conditioning/endurance.., who needs conditioning? Have another beer and relax. Sounds like you've found a great milestone in the pump man. Keep doing the court and cut clockwise and counter without putting your foot down.
LAVIN

Lawrence Kurtz
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Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Tue May 05, 2009 4:56 am

Ok...I think i just figured out the physics of dewedging....reduces the angle of attack that provides rear end turning...so rather than go with a rock hard rear end, if I dewedge it a little more, the rear end can lean into the turn allowing me to provide a lateral push without wasting all that energy in turning the rear (like skating). I still want it a little stiff so energy isn't wasted in the bushings but still soft enough to allow me to get some dampening and support the turn. Am I right?

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Post by Stephen Lavin » Tue May 05, 2009 1:37 pm

"Yes" I think you're right. I have gotten great advice over the last couple years from skaters I really admire. They have all given me similar direction and correction on my rear equipment. The mantra has been to de-wedge 5-10 degrees (for me anyway) assuming there is no make-up for a deck tail, and go with stiffer bushings. I weigh 165#. I use a Radikal black at the base plate now and a Radikal green or blue (if I'm feeling spirited) at hangar. I used to go softer but that wasn't working well for my style even though I kinda' grew up on squishy trucks.

The advice paid off and although I'm no blazer I can feel the conservation and better direction energy, like you point out, as result. My times have improved and there is no going back...
LAVIN

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Post by Brian Ellison » Tue May 05, 2009 5:39 pm

i too weigh 165 and i am currently running a flat rear with a small red cone on top and an orange superball on the bottom. the rear turns just ever so slightly and it seems to work for me well. last night the whole pumping to gain speed and not just maintain lightbulb went on in my head. i was able to pump all the way to school except for one stop which is just over a mile and it was awesome. but hopefully tomorrow i will be able to film some and post it up in my topic

Lawrence Kurtz
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Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Wed May 06, 2009 4:01 am

Here's a pic of my set up Image

The front bennett truck has a small orange khiro cone at the base. stacked on top and squished in there (its a little long but it fits) is a white bitch cone. On the outside is a white khiro insert. The main wedge is 15 degrees plus there is a 1 degree riser. I think overall though because the front truck is installed a little on the front kick, the effective front wedging must be closer to 17-18 degrees. Is this too much considering that i find the board is a very tight turner? I can always remove the 1 degree riser.

The rear truck - tracker rts is fitted currently with red khiro barrel inner and yellow khiro barrel outer. I had a black and yellow on today but i was losing contact in the rear end. The rear truck is dewedged also with a 15 degree riser but because of its placement on the rear kick I think its closer to 7-8 degrees. I also added a 3 degree wedge which i moved from the front end to the back last nite. Seems to help a lot with handling. So effective rear dewedging is maybe 10 degrees.

So...there is my set up....playing with it continuously. Any thoughts?

BTW...I was out for another pumping session today....the headwind was very hard to pump through but i made it...with the tail wind i was able to accelerate into a good rhythm before the rink ended.[/img]

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Post by Stephen Lavin » Wed May 06, 2009 4:48 am

Nice setup. I would be interested to know how the setup feels if you remove the flat riser in the rear and take that flat riser out of the front too. It will be a little harder to pump from a very slow start but I think you will benefit from the lower set. If you get wheel bite after removing the thick flats then add height (like 1/8" flats or 1/4") until wheels no longer contact the deck bottom in severe turn - I don't think you will have any wheel bite issues. I personally think the deck height up front should be a bit higher than the rear deck height anyway - helps drive in a pump.

Last thing in the rear; put the yellow bushing (the harder one) closer to the deck and the red (medium soft one) at the hangar. Generally if you mix bushing hardness in the same truck (front or back) put harder in the base plate softer in the hangar - I think you will have better results.

Only make one change at a time BTW. Takes longer to dial-in but you will know which dial setting got you home.
LAVIN

Lawrence Kurtz
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Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Wed May 06, 2009 5:09 am

How does lowering the board improve the drive...is it a lowered center of gravity?

If I just lower the rear end to start is that sufficient? Or do I need to lower the front as well?

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Post by Stephen Lavin » Wed May 06, 2009 3:36 pm

It will not improve the low speed drive IMO. I do think this effect will allow you to "spin-up" faster off a ramp for example. It will add stability and will also help that wheel lifting you've observed. What I was trying to say is with the fore of the board raised compared to aft, (1/4" to 1/2" max) and with that deck tail, you can dig into the pump with your back foot and drive the pump more effectively - just my opinion - I'm not a physicist - this is all test, try, rebuild type stuff you're working on.

You don't want a huge height disparity from end to end. Here's what I am thinking for you to try:

First use a 10 deg wedge (one that has almost no rise or small rise like a Khiro at the skinny end) up front only with the bennett and use whatever wedge you want in the rear to at least even the base plate parallel to the deck. In the rear use a 5 deg de-wedge or NO deg wedge for the tail - maybe an 1/8" hard riser. It does not look like that rear truck mount is in the tail so not likely you need wedge to get "even".

See how that feels. Remember to switch the red and yellow bushing too. I know I suggested one change at a time but you can make the bushing change with the height change IMO.

Second try adding another 1/8" flat riser to the front against the deck, leave the rear alone. try that and see how it feels.

Third if this all feels too low to you then add a flat 1/8" riser to the rear, try and see how that feels.

You deck is not like an AXE in the rear that requires some fairly massive de-wedge and riser to get that truck even with the deck surface. If the rear mounting holes in the rear get into the decks rise then you will need some similar compensation for it.
LAVIN

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Post by Rick Floyd » Wed May 06, 2009 4:08 pm

Stephen Lavin wrote:On the conditioning/endurance.., who needs conditioning? Have another beer and relax.
He's sandbaggin' ya Lawrence!

In truth though, pliometric exercises like leg presses and torso wraps will do as much to have you exploding out of turns as any bushing combo will. ;-)

-RF
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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Wed May 06, 2009 4:32 pm


Stephen Lavin
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Post by Stephen Lavin » Wed May 06, 2009 9:13 pm

uh oh, the ombudsman is lurking. May be a dispute looming ;)
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Lawrence Kurtz
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Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Wed May 06, 2009 9:15 pm

Last nite a did a bit of switch-a-roo. I removed the riser in the back and moved the 1 degree riser from the front and added it to the back. I left the front 1/4" riser in place. I think its fine as it is. The front is still very turny and the rear can flex with the turn without providing much steering input. I went out at lunch for a ride and the board pumped pretty well.....fairly small pumps though...

Here's the next question. front foot placement. I use a little khiro insert as a footstop. but i'm wonder if i should change its placement. Where should the front foot be...on or behind the front truck?

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Post by Rick Floyd » Wed May 06, 2009 10:04 pm

The ombudsman has determined that the front foot should be on the top of the BOARD, not "on or behind the front truck". Additionally, I believe it was ruled that toe-stops were for sissies, and FOOT stops were the more manly route to go, so you're good to go there.
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Lawrence Kurtz
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Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Wed May 06, 2009 10:50 pm

Seriously guys....front foot placement...the ball of the foot is it placed over all 4 of the screw heads, the back two or is it just personal preference. if the back foot pushes the rear end of the board, what assistance in pumping will the front foot provide.

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Post by Stephen Lavin » Wed May 06, 2009 11:48 pm

LOL, yeah personal preference. Maybe take that stop off until you find the right spot. I do not use them (and no that's not why I suck Floyd) but I have practiced with a small piece of chalk to mark my foot up front for best angle and placement. That helped me find my spot on a variety of decks - seems different on just about all of them.

I think you will find the further forward your fore foot gets the harder it will be to pump. For me anyway I find the sweet spot for non GS riding foot behind all but lower left front bolt. I ride goofy so I see the top of 3 bolts when I start; foot covering the lower left one but just a bit. I am serious ;)
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Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Thu May 07, 2009 2:47 am

I'll try moving the footstop back a bit. I put it on cause I found as I started to pump my front foot was sliding towards the nose of the board. I also think that the 1 degree dewedge I moved to the rear is just a little too much dewedging. I can pump but I think its a little bit too dead. I think I need a little more turn in the back to initiate the lateral pump. what do u think. Is there a such thing as too much dewedging?

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Post by Stephen Lavin » Thu May 07, 2009 3:03 am

I don't de-wedge my trucks at all anymore. Still personal preference on the "too much..." question. The change to harder bushings out back did the job for me. Keep in mind some trucks like the Randalls have much built into the design already. I really think it's better to wedge the front a bit (I do 15 deg) and go even out back. When you get much more comfy in that setup then de-wedge the rear and feel again. If you feel like you accelerate more then keep the de-wedge but you have to also make the cones right? Dude you could also use a narrower truck out back like a Dart if you like Tracker; yellow at baseplate, superball at hangar you got one? I have like 10, will let you borrow if interested.
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Post by Rick Floyd » Thu May 07, 2009 5:38 am

Stephen Lavin wrote:LOL, yeah personal preference. Maybe take that stop off until you find the right spot. I do not use them (and no that's not why I suck Floyd)
What did I say? I didn't say anything. There was no suck comment. Ombudsman, tell him there was no suck comment.

-R
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Post by Rick Floyd » Thu May 07, 2009 5:53 am

Lawrence - with a nice tight dead rear truck and a snappy turny front, with correct bushings and truck tightness, feet as much over each truck as possible (my front foot covers three bolts - toe, uh foot stop on the other bolt / back heel hangs off back of board slightly), your ride should pump like a rocketship. You want a stiff springy, but not turny, back truck to push off of, and a snappy turny front to drive with the front foot.

-RF
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Post by Stephen Lavin » Thu May 07, 2009 3:45 pm

Rick Floyd wrote:
Stephen Lavin wrote:LOL, yeah personal preference. Maybe take that stop off until you find the right spot. I do not use them (and no that's not why I suck Floyd)
What did I say? I didn't say anything. There was no suck comment. Ombudsman, tell him there was no suck comment.

-R
Yes, you didn't say anything of the sort but that was my preemptive strike!! See you soon bro...
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Post by Doug Kadzban » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:01 pm

Sorry for the bump, but I figured this would be as good of a thread as any to address my concerns.

I've got a Pavel wooden GoG, bennett front, RTS rear, 66mm zigs all around, and standing on the board in my room (waiting for nice weather), I noticed that the rear wheels lift off the ground when I lean. I've got 2 soft Khiro wedges under the back truck that dewedges the truck probably around 5 degrees, after compensating for the kicktail, and I've got a blue Stim and a red Khiro bushing on the back. I think this wheel lift might be what's killing my confidence while pumping on the Pavel, so I was looking for a good solution, or at least a nudge in the right direction...Does this sound like something that a softer bushing setup might help, or is it a matter of dewedging more?
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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:56 pm

Yes, softer can help, that blue stim is pretty hard depending upon your weight. Also, often what happens while stationary on you carpet, is not indicative of what happens on a hill at 10 or 20 mph.

Whatever you do, just watch out for wheel bite. Once you get that dialed, you might try adding some more wedge to the rear. That doesn't seem like enough angle to me if you are going to get serious.

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Post by Doug Kadzban » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:02 am

Joe Iacovelli wrote:Yes, softer can help, that blue stim is pretty hard depending upon your weight. Also, often what happens while stationary on you carpet, is not indicative of what happens on a hill at 10 or 20 mph.

Whatever you do, just watch out for wheel bite. Once you get that dialed, you might try adding some more wedge to the rear. That doesn't seem like enough angle to me if you are going to get serious.
Alright, thanks! I actually used the blue stim/red Khiro combo on recommendation from...uh...someone (I can't readily remember who) when I first got my board. Although, that combo did work with the wide trucks I had on it at the time. I'll have to play around with some softer bushings though.
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Post by Doug Kadzban » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:18 am

Doug Kadzban wrote:
Joe Iacovelli wrote:Yes, softer can help, that blue stim is pretty hard depending upon your weight. Also, often what happens while stationary on you carpet, is not indicative of what happens on a hill at 10 or 20 mph.

Whatever you do, just watch out for wheel bite. Once you get that dialed, you might try adding some more wedge to the rear. That doesn't seem like enough angle to me if you are going to get serious.
Alright, thanks! I actually used the blue stim/red Khiro combo on recommendation from...uh...someone (I can't readily remember who) when I first got my board. Although, that combo did work with the wide trucks I had on it at the time. I'll have to play around with some softer bushings though.
I did a little pumping around today and did notice a little something. It did seem like I could emulate the wheel-lift a little by not having my weight set properly on the board, for instance, when my rear foot was perpendicular to the board itself or when I had too much weight on my front foot. Otherwise, when I kept my weight centered (or slightly forward) with my feet pointing more forward, I felt a lot more in control.

It actually was a bit of an odd feeling since I got accustomed to snowboarding over the winter, but I think the snowboarding bit actually helped me analyze where my weight was a little better.
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Post by Rick Floyd » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:25 pm

Doug Kadzban wrote:Otherwise, when I kept my weight centered (or slightly forward) with my feet pointing more forward, I felt a lot more in control.

It actually was a bit of an odd feeling since I got accustomed to snowboarding over the winter, but I think the snowboarding bit actually helped me analyze where my weight was a little better.
You got it. And yes, snowboarding is the perfect sport to compare to...if you are too far forward or back you are toast. :-) Good work.

-R
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Re: Newbie...dialing things in......huge progress....i got i

Post by John Gilmour » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:21 am

So ... you first try to get the timing right.

The lead and lag part of it.


After awhile you BLEEEENNNNDDDDDD it all. And the more you use conservation of angular momentum to transfer the rotational energy like a cyclone down into the ground... your body becomes a human whip.

Thats when you make progress.

When you think about it.
One good turn deserves another
john gilmour

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