Newbie....help dialing things in....

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Lawrence Kurtz
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Newbie....help dialing things in....

Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:48 pm

I've been trying out my Skaterbuilt VRSII which I like very much.

I just want to refine things to get in the groove.

I'm running it with 20" wheelbase, 70mm lime Zigs, RTX/RTS 106 front and back. The front has the SK8kings mod for bushings (orange khiro barrel inboard, and white !tch outboard.) Its nice and loose and I like the feel of the front. I have a spare Bennett 4.3 stock which I tried out but it was too tight. I like the RTX better (for now) at least until I modify the bushings. The front and rear trucks are wedged and de-wedged respectively.

I started with the stock RTS rear and I'm playing with bushings....still not sure what combo to use. I played with black khiro barrel and red cone insert and black barrel blue insert. Other combos worth trying? Or is the rear less important for set up?

Big noob question - when do I know the set up is dialed in? Is there a magic feel to look for? Is there value in increasing the front wedging to improve the pump?

As far as riding position, I've tried and I kind of like a parallel surf style with my back foot tucked into the kick and the front foot over the bolts. I'm finding a windmill swing gets the board moving but not too quickly. Any advice?

Lenny Poage
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Post by Lenny Poage » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:20 pm

First of all, welcome! Next, know that most stuff comes from trial and error and what may work for some may not work for others. That said, here are a couple things I learned which may or may not help:

About the pump: It sounds like you have the basics down, but try to "compress" it a bit so you can keep your momentum and wiggle more quickly. The biggest thing is practice. Go someplace and do a ton of figure 8s. Once you can keep your momentum without kicking much, try to climb small hills without kicking. Once you do that, cones'll be a breeze.

About knowing when it's dialed. It'll be comfy for you and you'll be getting results (i.e. improvement). Know in advance, though that about everyone continues tweeking and trying different stuff. That's half the fun.

Hope that helps.
HOSS

Rick Floyd
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Post by Rick Floyd » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:16 pm

Lawrence - as Lenny points out, don't think of bushing choice as "set it and forget it". In general the rear bushings will be about 10-15 duro points harder than the front ones, but it depends on rider weight, style and ability, among other things. As you progress you will change bushings and truck tightness for each course/race, dependent on things like: steepness/speed, course set (tight? / open? / big offsets?), course type (GS / HY / TS), temperature (a 77a softie can get rock hard at 35 degrees!), truck type (what works in a Radikal on a given course may not work for a Splitfire or RTX), wheelbase, (and even wheel size used (66mm turn faster/easier than 75mm).

Change things up when you are training/riding and take notes as you do so, noting the above issues or any other thing that seems to affect your speed, comfort, turning or pumping ability. I keep a training log with detailed notes so I can learn what works best for a given board/wheel/truck combo, in a given course set, for given conditions (even wind - headwind/ tailwind and strength), on a given steepness of hill and pavement type/quality. that way you develop a database of info so that when you encounter those combos of conditions in the future you can much more easily set the board up at least CLOSE to what you want, then make minor tweaks, and thus spend more time learning where the gas pedals and "gotchas" in the course are, and less time wrenching - and you will likely spend a LOT of time wrenching at first...but that is good...it's how we learn what works!

Happy riding - hope to see you at a race somewhere down the line!

-RF
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- Jason Mitchell (Criddlezine Interview)

Jonathan Harms
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Post by Jonathan Harms » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:37 pm

Good advice from both Lenny and Rick, IMO. From your description of wedging, dewedging, etc., sounds like you're on the right track with what you're riding.

In my experience, the RT-X doesn't really come alive as a front truck until you wedge it at least 10 to 12 degrees. The Bennett doesn't need as much, maybe 5 to 8. Bushing choice depends on what you weigh, but in general, bouncy is best--which is why a lot of racers pay primo prices for old Tracker Stimulators (RIDICULOUS rebound) and bushings made from high-rebound wheels.

Rear setup DOES matter. You want it firm enough to give you power around offsets instead of mushing out and overturning. Run the front as "juicy" loose as you can, and crank down the rear so it's quite a bit more dead. As your technique gets better, the difference between the two will likely get even larger. As far as the "magic" feel, it will vary from course to course depending on tightness and speed, but in general, you just want it to feel like an extension of yourself. One way to gauge this is to ride other people's setups and compare yours to them.

I'd also add, watch some video of good racers if you can and compare it to video of yourself. Notice what they're doing that you're not and see if you can gradually incorporate some of their techniques. One of the biggest things that separates faster racers from slower ones is how the faster ones use their arm swing in conjunction with their hip movements to generate and maintain power and speed. In general: wider swings to generate power; shorter, more precise ones to negotiate tighter cones.

Above all, as Lenny and Rick also mentioned: Practice.

Eric Brammer
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Bushings, et al.

Post by Eric Brammer » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:58 am

Lawrence, I'm only gonna add two tidbits here(well, and addenda,of course):

Front, go softer on top, equal or harder (BY ONLY A FEW POINTS!) on the lower. At the rear, do the OPPOSITE, put the stiffer (Up to 5-8 points higher) on Top, and the 'squishier' bushing below.

O.k., so what happens here?

At the front, you need to 'commit' to the turn, and Timing is everything! This part of your turn is all about quick, light muscle, Aiming your board where you think it oughta go. So, say you're running a lower front of 80A;That's gotta respond to your intensity of turn input, the upper bushing simply is the 'dampener' or resistance needed to finish the turn. The more skilled you are (or, rather, more comfy with the speed), the softer that top bushing in front can be.

At the rear, the lower bushing is your 'pump' resistance. Softer equals less energy, or mass
input, and yeilds quicker turns usually. As you gain confidence in your 'pump' timing and strength, that lower rear will need to get a bit stiffer. The upper rear bushing is the dampener here (all the rider's force lands on the lower bushing under compression), so it's the BIG variable. I run mine at some 10 A-Shore (like 95A to 101A) points stiffer than my lower rear bushing, almost 25 points more than what's up front! But, again, it's something that'll change almost daily to suit the course/hill/your mood/board flex, etc, so be ready to play a bit here before writing your own rules.Wide bushings like Stims, Stims III, JimZ's,Pumkins and Radikals can add to stability while giving good pump rebound (and thus staying softer by a few points, in the mid 80's to mid 90's).

Oh, and REBOUND in any bushing RULES!!! That's why I advocated Stims some 12 years ago! They 'bounce' better than anything else, save for 'custom cut' bushing made from the juiciest wheels available. Keep an eye out for Vemons, Bones(up front), Khiros, Holey, Jim-Z's(Rear mostly), and Pumkins(rear). Also, note that for front bushings, many rollerskate companies have great items available (not that this is needed now that Khiro/Venom/holey have added BIG soft bushings to the market) that turn really easily and fit tall trucks like RTX/Bennett.

Disclaimer- I know nothing, haven't really skated hard since, um, '81 or so... ;-)
"Surfin' these Old Hills since back in The Day"

Lawrence Kurtz
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Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:50 am

confused...when we say lower...do we mean the inboard (close to baseplate) or outboard bushing (near kingpin nut).

I'm still have trouble pumping the board...it loses momentum really quickly.

I've decided to try my spare bennett up front....im going to fit 2 white khiro barrels up front (readily available)...i know the stack height is different....i found a bmx peg spacer with the right height for temporary fit...but there is a little slop....if i cut another bushing to fit what is the best way to ensure level and even cut?

Lawrence Kurtz
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Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:35 pm

Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:51 am

should i try adding a little more wedge to the front since it wont hold a pump?

Jonathan Harms
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Post by Jonathan Harms » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:23 am

Lawrence Kurtz wrote:should i try adding a little more wedge to the front since it wont hold a pump?
Won't hold a pump with the Bennett up front or with the RT-X up front? Most people seem to agree that an RT-X needs more wedge to come alive--maybe 12 degrees or so. A Bennett shouldn't need quite as much, although you can always give it a try. Perhaps if you're not Joe Pump yet it'll help to have that extra wedge amount. As your technique improves, it might be too "dive-y" and you can always back it off a bit.

Bushing talk: By "lower" bushing, most people mean the one closer to the baseplate--which you've called "inboard"--and thus upper is the opposite, i.e. closer to the kingpin.

As for using a slice of bushing to make up that extra height a Bennett needs, try using a belt sander and holding the bushing as flat and steady as you can. If you don't have a belt sander, you can always try stacking a few washers next to the baseplate and using your Khiro barrels.

Hope that helps.

Lawrence Kurtz
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Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:34 am

i have the rtx up front. maybe i'll add an extra wedge and see what happens.


front foot placement....behind, on, or in front of the bolts?

As far as that spacer and slop...i just remembered a trick i used with a bike handlebar stem that was loose...a small piece of coke can...cut to slip inside snuggly does the job.

it would be so nice if somebody posted a video of some very basics of pumping...starting out...hip movement, etc.

Lawrence Kurtz
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Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:35 am

only thing i dont like about that rtx...it looks like the inboard barrel bushing is herniating from the truck..

Eric Brammer
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Lawerence's pump..

Post by Eric Brammer » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:08 am

Thank You, Mr. Harms for that timely, and accurate added info. I was just about to rant on about how to get a Bennett to 'flow' in pumping, but you have that covered.

Lawerence, sorry about the upper/lower bushing bit, did not mean to leave confusion in the air. I'd figured this quote, ["The upper rear bushing is the dampener here (all the rider's force lands on the lower bushing under compression), so it's the BIG variable.]" would give you a sense of heads-or-tails, but I guess it's a matter of whether you're on the board, or it's on your knee and you're working on it?! ;-) In any case, 'Upper bushing' is usually the one closer to the kingpin nut, 'lower' near the deck/baseplate. In the broader picture, what I really meant to convey is that bushing selection is not just one bushing type/hardness for any given truck, but the 'combo' of bushings for a truck's setup that'll create the turn you're looking for. Mix+match, and as Rick does, take note of the difference, in times, feel, and reaction with the board.

O.k., bigger issue; The board dosen't 'carry' a pump well. Usually, that's one of two things (at the truck/steering P.O.V.); The rear is too stiff, or not steering enough, so turn/twist/lean energy gets wasted (you can feel this in that the board just feels 'dead' in the last 1/2 of a turn); or, up front, the front truck is steering too much, and scrubbing speed (this is common with T.S. set-ups that're set for tighter turns). If at all possible, ride a 'fixed' course on clean, smooth tar on a hill you know well and use often.
Note the 'line' your wheels leave after 10-20 laps on the course. Any waviness in your tracks uphill of the cone[s] is likely the front turning too deep/quick. The rear, btw, should leave a less curved line, and it's tracking should complete the turn's apex at the cone or a bit uphill of the cone, but NOT below the cones. The reason I note these 'tracks' is that oftentimes the board will have the wrong 'ratio' of steering for a good pump, where one truck is dominant to the point that it sucks away the rider's speed, and also leaves a 'line' that makes the trucks fight one another through the turn's apex.
((This is analogous to setting up a racecar for right amount of oversteer/understeer for quick laps on different sized tracks. But I know nothing of that, as I drove Rally cars!))
Too straight of a line from the rear will clip cones or have a 'low' apex; the fix then would be more steering angle and/or softer bushing fit. The front taking too quick a turn-in will leave a very high apex, maybe some 'wiggle' in the wheelpath; And the fixes there are less steering angle/stiffer bushings/longer wheelbase. Putting the correct fix[es] together to get a board to work really well can take some time, so be patient, and keep track of your adjustments.

Lastly, Bennett bushings are Taller than most, so Jonathan's shim of using a belted/cut bushing near the baseplate is spot-on. Holey, Venom, and a few Rollerskate (lazer,SGI) bushings are just tall enough to fit Bennetts without much more than a shim/washer, but Khiro/Powell/Tracker/Doh-Doh bushings will need a thicker shim to work well, and a lower-profile bushing can limit a Bennett's turn a bit, too.
"Surfin' these Old Hills since back in The Day"

Jonathan Harms
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Post by Jonathan Harms » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:16 am

Lawrence Kurtz wrote:i have the rtx up front. maybe i'll add an extra wedge and see what happens.


front foot placement....behind, on, or in front of the bolts?

As far as that spacer and slop...i just remembered a trick i used with a bike handlebar stem that was loose...a small piece of coke can...cut to slip inside snuggly does the job.

it would be so nice if somebody posted a video of some very basics of pumping...starting out...hip movement, etc.
That's where Wesley's advice starts to kick in. Some of it depends on your height. If you're running the long "slalom" wheelbase on that deck, I'd say either over the front bolts or slightly behind. But try all of the above and see what works.

As for pumping, try doing tic-tacs, then gradually shift your weight forward little by little, so you're "scraping" your front wheels instead of lifting them. Then shift even a little more forward and see if you can keep your momentum going without lifting OR scraping your front wheels. Voila! You've got the basics of pumping.

And since you asked for video, check out: http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=6144 . Watch how they use their arms, legs and hips to generate speed and power, and work toward learning to do that yourself.

Rick Floyd
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Post by Rick Floyd » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:39 pm

Lawrence Kurtz wrote:I've decided to try my spare bennett up front....im going to fit 2 white khiro barrels up front (readily available)...i know the stack height is different....i found a bmx peg spacer with the right height for temporary fit...but there is a little slop....if i cut another bushing to fit what is the best way to ensure level and even cut?
L - try http://speed-dealer.ca/bennettac.asp ... don't know if these guys are still in biz, but the website makes it look so.

You can also use stacked "fiber washers" from the hardware store under the bushing, no annoying sounds from them and minimal wear on the kingpin. Also cheap! Stack 'em and then put the bushing on, then the hangar, press down on the hangar near the kingpin to simulate a tightened truck and the kingpin should be centered vertically in the hole where it passes through the hangar - then your stack height is correct.

Pumping - really push hard on the back foot then unweight it between turns.
"All the money in the world can not buy sharing the excitement of life with other people. Nothing else matters."

- Jason Mitchell (Criddlezine Interview)

Lawrence Kurtz
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Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:35 pm

Post by Lawrence Kurtz » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:37 pm

ok....i think im starting to get the foot movement....sort of bouncing on the balls of my feet at the outside of each turn to push....i find im pushing more off the front foot.

I picked my self up a couple of packages of khiros...orange and white...I will try them in the bennett later and see how they feel.

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