Spacers

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Seth Levy
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Spacers

Post by Seth Levy » Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:04 am

I'm sure this has been discussed many times, so could someone just post a link to the thread?

Wes Eastridge
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Post by Wes Eastridge » Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:14 am

What question do you have, regarding spacers?

Seth Levy
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Post by Seth Levy » Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:16 am

i really want a long winded, technical explaination on why you need spacers for slalom

Wes Eastridge
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Post by Wes Eastridge » Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:37 am

Seth Levy wrote:i really want a long winded, technical explaination on why you need spacers for slalom
I’m sorry I asked then.

It keeps the bearings parallel to each other.

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Post by Slappy Maxwell » Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 am

Go to ncdsa.com and do a search for 'spacers' under the slalom, wheels, and bearings forums.

You should get more than could ever want to know about spacers.

Dave Gale
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Post by Dave Gale » Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:56 pm

Or you could just ask Chaput!!
ENJOY!! (while you can)

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Post by Daniel Poweleit » Wed Feb 18, 2004 4:33 pm

Have look at this:

This is a wheel on a truck with an exact fitting spacer.
You can tighten the screw. The Wheel rolls light in the bearings.
Image

Now look at this:

This spacer is to large, the wheel wobbles around. The bearings and the wheel get damaged. And the truck cannot hold the lane exactly.
Image

And now this:

This spacer is to short. When you tighten the screw you will damage the bearings. The bearings become hot. The wheel can stop because of a broken/damaged bearing.
Image

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:22 pm

A bearing engineer I know who has designed the fastest and longest lasting bearings I've ever used (<a href="http://www.californiabearing.com/skate.htm">Rockets</a>) recommends spacers for street skating where stability is needed, but recommends no spacers for vert skating where there is constant turning and stop and go conditions. I guess you need to decide whether slalom is more like street or more like vert.

Nearly all slalom guys will say you must use spacers. But nearly all slalom guys also believe they are buying abec 7 bearings just cause it says so on the bearing. So i'd rather hear the science behind it than the commonly held belief.

The explanation gets mighty complex and I'll try to get some graphics to explain his point of view. Keep in mind that what you observe by spinning your skateboard wheel with your hand does not tell you much about actual bearing dynamics when you have your weight on the board.

-Rich

Terry Kirby
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Post by Terry Kirby » Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:03 am

Seth, take this for what its worth. All the top slalom racers,including Dunn, Gilmour ,Molica, Chicken, Dong, Ritchie, Wahl, Masey, Etc...USe Bearing spacers. And Despite what Rich says about them not knowing the difference between abec 3 and abec 7 these are some very smart guys.
These guys win races and win money. Chris Chaput is a world class downhiller and he uses spacers, in fact, his company Bilt In has the spacer built into the bearing.

I'm not smart , but I know what smart looks like. TK

Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:09 am

ummm...anyone who tells you you don't need bearing spacers in skateboard wheels (not just slalom) is blowing some serious smoke up your ass. Be it lack of knowledge of marketing BS.

Slalom may be more like vert skating that street, the comparison is slight though...but in slalom we are constantly loading our wheels with a hell of alot more sideload than vert guys ever do or need to.

Do this. Go out and set a 30 cone course you know you can make with ease. Run it three times with bearing spacers and average the times. Now remove your bearing spacers and run the same course three more times and average those times together. You'll see which one is considerably faster. That's all you need to know. Stopwatches don't lie nor do they listen to hype.

Don't listen to marketing BS.

Now on the issue of abec ratings and blah blah blah. I gotta say that I have a set of abec 3 bearings that rocks my world while I have a set or two of abec 7s that blow and a set of ceramics that are even worse. But I have 2 sets of ceramics that I love and one set of abec less bones swiss that i love....I have some roller skate bearings that are abec who knows that work while i have some fancy hype filled bearings that are the cool thing for slalom tht frankly don't show any diffrence than my $4.00 abec 3s.....my point is.....a good set of bearings is a good set of bearings. if you find a set take care of it, they are hard to come by no matter what logo or abec # is stamped on the seal/sheild

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Post by Rich Stephens » Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:33 am

Chris Stepanek wrote:Don't listen to marketing BS.
I don't see how telling people they *don't* need to buy something could be marketing BS, ha!

What is marketing BS is billing skate bearings by their Abec ratings. Even if the ratings were true, which in the case of the "big three" slalom bearings has turned out to not be the case (I like to believe they were simply ripped off by their chinese manufacturers and not selling bearings they knew to be market incorrectly), there is much more to a good bearing than an abec rating anyway.

George Powell also speaks negatively about spacers - though his reasons for avoiding them can be dismissed if one has trucks with perfectly true, 8mm axles and hanger ends machined to be perfectly perpendicular with the axle.

(I also think its ridiculous to say loads on the bearings are a "hell of a lot more" in slalom than in vert.)

I just think there is more to the story than has been told and I'm looking forward to hearing it play out.

Chris, feel free to step up with all the knowledge you think you have that you are accusing a bearing engineer of not having.

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:40 am

Terence Kirby wrote: And Despite what Rich says about them not knowing the difference between abec 3 and abec 7 these are some very smart guys.
I know they are smart guys. My comment was in reference to the fact that we skaters have been deceived to by the makers of these bearings. Biltin, Pleasure Tool, and many others, are selling bearings marked with Abec ratings that they do not in fact meet. I hope that Ed and Chris are taking this up with their suppliers, or better yet, just staying away from Chinese bearings, for future releases. In other words, the skate industry has not always proven itself to be the best source for accurate knowledge.

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Post by Wes Eastridge » Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:50 am

Rich Stephens wrote:A bearing engineer I know who has designed the fastest and longest lasting bearings I've ever used (<a href="http://www.californiabearing.com/skate.htm">Rockets</a>) recommends spacers for street skating where stability is needed, but recommends no spacers for vert skating where there is constant turning and stop and go conditions.
That is the opinion of someone who sells bearings. What a coincidence - the last person who said using spacers was not a good choice also sold bearings!
Nearly all slalom guys will say you must use spacers. But nearly all slalom guys also believe they are buying abec 7 bearings just cause it says so on the bearing. So i'd rather hear the science behind it than the commonly held belief.
How about a slalomer who:
1 - Believes that spacers are good to use
and
2 - Doesn’t worry about ABEC ratings, but rather chooses bearings based on things that are more applicable to skateboarding, such as experienced performance.
Would you consider their opinion to be reliable?

I wonder if there is any footage of this rocket bearing guy skateboarding.
Keep in mind that what you observe by spinning your skateboard wheel with your hand does not tell you much about actual bearing dynamics when you have your weight on the board.
I think most people here have already considered that.

Dave Gale
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Post by Dave Gale » Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:54 am

Running bearings w/o proper retainers/spacers is down right IGNORANT if you don't think it matters Bearings have a name..."bearing" in reference to "direction" They need to be oriented to maintain a direction, w/o they will wobble and find the path that least resists..which isn't normally where you aim them!!
Get a clue before you do!!
ENJOY!! (while you can)

Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:35 am

Look...I'm just a guy who skates. I could care less what you make and I could care less what the other guy is riding, ride whatever the hell you want...makes no difference to me. maybe your product is the the best thing since sliced bread. I don't know i haven't ridden it. i have ridding alot of products that seem to live on hype only while I have ridden products that get poo-poo'ed because they don't have so and so on their team or don't have a cool logo whatever. I know what i like and what is working for me. I've tired alot of this stuff timed it and made my choices on what the stopwatch says and not what logo or hype is on said product.

I offered my opinion. Go out buy this guy's product run them without spacers...great...if they work and make you the fastest guy ever...good for you.

I don't care. Just don't believe everything you read. Form your own opinions.

My knowledge...well buy some bearings. I'm sure Walmart sells them. Put them in your wheels and go nuts. if they roll yiipie for you if they don't buy new ones for target or Rich here. I know a thing or two about bearings, from talking with another bearing maker and doing research on the subject for my own jollies....but I am sure since you sell/make these Rich you know more.

again, don't care.
Rich Stephens wrote:
Chris Stepanek wrote:Don't listen to marketing BS.
I don't see how telling people they *don't* need to buy something could be marketing BS, ha!

What is marketing BS is billing skate bearings by their Abec ratings. Even if the ratings were true, which in the case of the "big three" slalom bearings has turned out to not be the case (i like to believe they were simply ripped off by their chinese manufacturers and not selling bearings they knew to be market incorrectly), there is much more to a good bearing than an abec rating anyway.

George Powell also speaks negatively about spacers - though his reasons for avoiding them can be dismissed if one has trucks with perfectly true, 8mm axles and hanger ends machined to be perfectly perpendicular with the axle.

(I also think its ridiculous to say loads on the bearings are a "hell of a lot more" in slalom than in vert.)

I just think there is more to the story than has been told and I'm looking forward to hearing it play out.

Chris, feel free to step up with all the knowledge you think you have that you are accusing a bearing engineer of not having.

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Post by Rich Stephens » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:19 am

Chris Stepanek wrote:but I am sure since you sell/make these Rich you know more.
For the record, I do not sell or make any bearings nor do I have any connection to Ron at California Bearing, other than liking his bearings and having skated with him at skatelab in california a few times.


Ron does not make/sell skate bearings for a living. He designs and sells bearings for other applications in industry, nasa, etc. Did any of you bother to look at the website? Http://www.californiabearing.com

Ron wanted the best bearings he could come up with for his own use and so contracted NMB to make some to his specs. He now makes them available to skaters. They are specifically designed for vert skating, which I realize many of you here never do.

But everyone who has ever tried his bearings rave about them. A friend who rode another sponsoring companies bearings from Oregon to Virginia and raved about them now says that the Rockets are the best bearings he's ever encountered. George Powell, whose own swiss bones bearings made by WIB are recognized as industry leaders has recently popped up to discuss bearings with Ron and others on concrete disciples after he purchased a set of the Rockets to test and evaluate.

I'm practically begging any else who is also a bearing engineer, and has their own manufacturing and testing facility to step in here and provide information for us the way that Ron has on the skull and bones and concrete disciples forums. But it seems all the bearings we know about are simply chinese made bearings sourced by people here who slap their packaging around them and sell them so it's been hard to find anyone else out there who knows what their own product actually is, much less discuss the merits of features and recommended usage. If any of you do have this knowledge, please share it with us.

-Rich
Last edited by Rich Stephens on Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pat Chewning
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Bearings and spacers

Post by Pat Chewning » Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:19 am

Rich,

I am a mechanical engineer and I also skateboard. I have designed moving machinery using bearings, but I am not a "bearing engineer".

In the skateboard application, a spacer is needed to keep the inside races of the bearings from being compressed out of alignment with the outside races. This is clearly seen in the excellent graphics on a previous post by Daniel Poweleit.

You do not have to have a mechanical engineering degree to understand that if the outer races of the bearings are fixed at a distance "X" due to the wheel hub, then the bearing will work best if the inner races are also fixed at distance "X". Since we can only squeeze the inner races towards each other (using the nut on the axle), a spacer is required to make the inner distance "X".


This will be true for ABEC 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,9999999

This will be true for bearings made in China, Swizerland, USA, Rowanda, Zimbabwe ......

This will be true for Rocket, Pleasure Tools, Bones, Oust, .....

This will be true for vert, slalom, street, downhill .....

This is not marketing hype (nobody gets rich making spacers).

This is easily proven experimentally. In fact, some of the less-skilled racers (myself included) at the 2003 World championships were deliberately removing spacers from the wheels in order to slow down to be able to make the course.

The burden of proof is on you and your "bearing engineer" to show the rest of the skateboard world why bearings will work without a spacer.

-- Pat

Rich Stephens
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Re: Bearings and spacers

Post by Rich Stephens » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:03 am

Pat Chewning wrote: In the skateboard application, a spacer is needed to keep the inside races of the bearings from being compressed out of alignment with the outside races.
Pat, it's great to have you posting on this thread.

Have you considered that all the spacers and tightening of the nuts do is hold the bearings' inner races in place on the axle? While turning, the wheel will still flex, taking the rest of the bearing with it in whatever direction it wants (since the outter part of the bearing is held by the wheel itself). Therefore the inner and outside races will not be in the alignment you mentioned the spacers giving you. Is it not possible that it would be better to leave the inner race free to move with the rest of the bearing than lock in it place and have the outer move away from it? Or some other advantage to not forcing the bearings to work as a pair?

There is also the issue that most skateboard axles are not straight, not the same size as the bearings, tolerances in spacers is terrible, hanger ends and nut surfaces are not perpendicular to the axle (even if it were straight), and so on. Many of these issues are eliminated by the extra machining some serious slalom guys do to their trucks, but remain issues for those of us with off the shelf indy or trackers.

I think we've been through this before in another thread but since this topic is "spacers" maybe I should try to repeat what I've heard again. Basically, Ron has called the standard spacer with tight nuts set up a "duplexed preloaded set". He says that he would rather have the bearings operate as independant high speed radial bearings with low starting and running torque. This may be more important in a start/stop heavy activity like vert where getting back up to speed is important, than in slalom where the wheel never stops spinning in the same direction. Anyway, he recommends the nuts be only lightly snug so that the bearings will have less preload and will run like a "high speed radial" bearing.

I've never been able to understand this whole preload and duplexed and independent radial and all that stuff though.


-Rich

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Post by Seth Levy » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:05 am

woah, i didnt mean to start a fight! i ride rockin rons rockets, and they are amazing. and for pool/bowl riding, i tried first with spacers then without and i noticed a significant speed increase without. no need to get defensive about what you do or like. i am not very knowlegable in slalom skating and just wanted to know some technical oppinions from the brainiacs on the forum (they know who they are!)

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Post by Terry Kirby » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:41 pm

Rich, have you done any of your own research on the spacer debate? If you have a timer you can set up a course and run 10 runs with and 10 runs without spacers. Average the times together and you will have a mini test true to the slalom application. Run any bearings you wish.

IF it turns out slalom racers are faster without using spacers I'll be the first one to switch . Right now race results tell us what works best.
Racing should always be the test as to what works and what doesnt. Everything else is just theory.

If you race the next race and blow away the open class or pro class without spacers I guarentee some guys will run spacerless next race.

As for me I just let Dong test everything running Cyber Slalom then copy him.

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Post by Nick Krest » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:25 pm

Rich, I've been riding the Rockets for a couple months now, and they are indeed everything that Ron claims them to be.

I'm still educating myself on preload. NMB links to this page to describe preload. Knowing firsthand the transitory nature of the Web, I'll re-post the information here:

Preload
Purpose for Preload
For eample, when a ball bearing is used in a motor, it has "Zero" radial clearance when an axial load is applied. If there is any radial clearance, vibration and noise of the balls will occur, and the stiffness of the ball bearing will be very low. This force that is applied in the axial direction is known as preload. An optimum preload should be individvally specified for each ball bearing size. If the Preload is applied excessively, Bearing Fatigue Life will be short and will increase raceway noise as well. Bearing starting and running torque will also be high. If the applied Preload is insufficient, fretting corrosion can occur. This happens as a result of vibration causing the balls to resonate and abrade on the raceways. Therefore, obtaining the correct Preload is very important.

Optimum Preload
Optimum Preload is normally recommended after calculating the optimum operating surface stress at the contact ellipse. The contact ellipse is the area of contact between the ball and raceway that occurs as a result of elastic deformation of both parts under load.

Image

Regarding the figure, the contact ellipse area (S) between the ball and raceway is formulated as S = (Pi)ab (a: the major axis of the contact ellipse area, b: the minor axis of the contact ellipse area).

Operating surface stress (P) is given by Q/S, where Q = Ball load or load on the raceway (Perpendicular to the area of contact), and S = Surface area of the contact ellipse. Generally, the unit is shown "MPa" (Kgf/mm2).

The aim for the surface stress is below. The following is one of the guidelines for noise life.

If the noise life requirement is over 10,000 hours, the Preload can be calculated based on an optimum surface contact stress that does not exceed 800 MPa {80 Kgf/mm2}.

For general applications with a noise life requirement between 5,000 and 10,000 hours, the optimum Preload can be calculated using a contact ellipse stress that does not exceed 1000 MPa {100 Kgf/mm2}.

For stiffness critical applications requiring an operating noise life of less than 5,000 hours, a surface stress of less than 1500 MPa {150 Kgf/mm2} should be used.

A way of looking at the Preload from the Basic Dynamic Load Rating (Cr)

Over 10,000 hours noise life requirement: 0.5/100 - 1/100·Cr

5,000 - 10,000 hours noise life requirement: 1/100 - 1.5/100·Cr

Less than 5,000 hours noise life requirement: 1.5/100 - 2/100·Cr

If a surface stress of 2700 MPa {270 Kgf/mm2} is applied to a high carbon chromium bearing, permanent raceway and ball deformation will occur. It is possible that stresses below 2700 MPa {270 Kgf/mm2} will result in no permanent raceway or ball deformation, but we would recommend to use a maximum safe operating stress of 1600 MPa {160 Kgf/mm2}.

Preload and Stiffness
There are two basic methods of Preloading: Solid Preload and Spring Preload.

Image
Solid Preload (example above) can be obtained by mechanically locking all of the rings in postion while under an axial load. The advantages of this type of design are that the components remain simple and the stiffness is high. The disadvantage is high variation in Preload under temperature variation, and that the Preload can reduce with wear.

Image
Spring Preload (or Constant Pressure Preload) (example above) can be applied using a coil spring or a spring wave washer, etc. An advantage of Spring Preload is that it maintains consistent Preload with temperature variation.The disadvantages are that the designs are more complex, and normally have lower stiffnesses.

The Preload can be applied in two directions, Duplex face to face (DF) and Duplex back to back (DB). When considering stiffness, DB is stiffer under moment loads than DF.

Duplex face to face (DF)Image

Duplex back to back (DB)Image

Now, having looked at that, I think you'll agree on a couple of things in a skateboard wheel application:

Noise Life Requirements are pretty irrelevant.

We use a Solid Preload (unless we use those spring wave speed washers from the 80's).

We use a Duplex Back-to-Back configuration when we use spacers, and a Duplex Face-to-Face configuration when we don't. DB uses preload on the inner race, while DF uses it on the outer race.

I think you would have to be a bearing engineer and have the full set of specs to be able to determine whether or not a spacer is appropriate for a given situation.

The problem is that skateboarding uses a constantly varying set of situations. Our moment loads vary in both force and duration.

I think if you're going to use spacers, it's extraordinarily important to get some that are the correct length. Chaput and I got into this a few months ago, and while I agreed then (and still agree) that having a properly sized spacer (typically .400" / 10.16mm) is important, most manufacturers just get it in the ballpark, and that's good enough for them. Undersized spacers are pretty useless, because they don't perform their desired function. Oversized spacers simply change the preload type from DB to DF, again putting the torsional loads on the outer race.

As for me, I'm gonna keep using them. I think a properly-sized spacer, used in a wheel that is either cored, or a non-cored wheel that uses sufficiently hard urethane, properly torqued, will resist torsional moment loads more effectively, and therefore resist operating surface stress at the contact ellipse most effectively. This, IMHO, makes for a faster, longer-lasting bearing.
Last edited by Nick Krest on Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Brady Mitchell » Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:50 am

Does anybody remember when Ousts were hyping on ncdsa? They kept talking about side loads and how thier bearings are better designed for side loads.

Without ever having tried the Rockets, I would guess that thier own superiority is do to better side load management.

So just what is side load? AH, little grasshopper, you are finally grasping the surreal truths of skateboard bearings.

Specifically, any load that is NOT from the direct top or bottom of the bearing. So does sideload matter in vert? I can only take an edjamcated guess that it does. Unless vert skating is just about going straight (yeah right?).

And I thnk when someone calls a maker/seller that tells his customers that you don`t need spacers (or speed rings for that matter) as being a hyper, they probably mean the majer/seller is offering nad advice so you will wear your bearings out faster than should be so you buy more..

And you know what`s funny? Every time I`m at a skatepark and some little kids mom is buying him a new skateboard, they`re always puttung new bearings in. Why? Because he took the spacers out as not needed and proper maitenance was not kept.

I have Bones Swiss that are over 5 years old. I clean them regularly and ALWAYS use proper spacers and speed rings.

So if even the Rockets are better than any other at this time, proper maintenance is still needed.

And in closing, if anyone speeks to Ron, tell him I`m still waiting for a reply to my email or a post on ncdsa with an apology. That lambasting he gave to me was over a post from someone other than me.
Got ants?

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Post by Dave Gale » Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:26 am

I feel all this "spacer" talk is over rated!! It should be known as "alligner" talk! A "spacer" is only as good as it's tolerence, w/o micros it's no better than none!!

All bearings need allignment to 1 another when dealing with rotation.. anyone who claims spacers aren't need are LAME!!!!
ENJOY!! (while you can)

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Post by Glenn S » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:58 am

Terence Kirby wrote:Racing should always be the test as to what works and what doesnt. Everything else is just theory.
This has been a very good discussion on the subject. And I've learned some things.

But if a racer can get to the bottom of a course faster using spacers that means that less friction has affected the bearings. Racing results are the proof.

But I might also think that experience in setting up your wheels with the proper spacer might help. Having precise straight 8mm axles too.

One thing that I have tried to notice is how loose the spacer is in the wheel after I crank it down hard and then pull the wheel off and check it. If it is too big it might not move when I shake the wheel. Seems also that I notice if a spacer is too small and it is cranked down hard it slows the spin (same affect as running without spacer and crankin' it down, but it reaches it's limit of slowing when it is snug). I also get the feeling that no hub is exactly the same, and spacers are not all the same size exactly either. So if I put a wheel on and crank it down and is slows when cranked all the way, pull it off and notice that the bearing spacer is loose I try another spacer. I have heard of guys that use micrometers to check. And of course that would be a better way than just randomly putting in another spacer and hoping that is better. How many of the top racers that you know have a micrometer in their skate toolbox?

But honestly I don't mess with it that much. Usually if I crank it down and it slows I just back it off till it spins and just skate. But it makes for good discussion.

Tod Oles
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I don't make a living at this said...

Post by Tod Oles » Sat Feb 21, 2004 4:29 pm

My name is Tod and I have obsessive compulsive disorder.

This discussion has caused a major set back in my treatment.

What I see here is a perfect machine(bearing sets) being encased in a big goopy mess of urethane. Its my experience that smaller or harder wheels
are affected more by the "misalignments" and that bigger or softer wheels
are more forgiving of their innards.
"Perfect" is always desirable, but at least where I live and depending on the quality of the stuff Brown delivers it's rarely attainable.

Micrometer....? Where the hell is my Paxil!

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Post by Rich Stephens » Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:15 pm

I got an email from Ron of California Bearing and he said he would use spacers for "downhill". I think that means he would use them for slalom as well. (though maybe he'd not use them for steep ditch banked slalom).

Just wanted to say that so you guys can stop dissing him. You can diss me all you want though since I'm here to respond if I feel the need, ha!

I never use spacers in my vert boards but I guess I'll try to find a good set to put in my slalom wheels. Though I'm so slow anyway that I doubt I'll notice the difference, ha!

-Rich

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Re: I don't make a living at this said...

Post by Glenn S » Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:42 pm

tod oles wrote:Micrometer....? Where the hell is my Paxil!
Ok, well I do know two good slalom skateboarders that do use a micrometer and I am sure that others might. I think that it makes sense, but for me I'm just trying to make it around the cones and that is more important to me at this point.

I hope that Michael Dong does not mind me quoting him here again. But here goes:
Michael Dong wrote:“This brings up another thing that hopefully some smart manufacturer will address. The current bearing spacers are in need of improvement. First, it would be nice if the material was steel rather than aluminum. Those crappy aluminum spacers start mashing down over time and you eventually get an undersized spacer. The width of spacers varies HUGELY. I've measured 0.100 differences in a handful of spacers. A good idea if you are buying spacers at a shop is to bring a pair of calipers and only buy the ones between 0.400 and 0.405. This is also really nice at a race when time is short and you need to choose among a handful of spacers. The other method is to put a random spacer in, put your bearings in and then swear because your wheel won't spin because you just put in an undersized spacer. Repeat until you find one where your wheel will spin freely. This a fun way to eat up the short practice time and get you really frustrated right before qualifying.

It would also be interesting to know what the wheel manufacturers use for a spacer dimension. I know from talking to Chris Chaput that 0.4" is supposedly the standard. Then I look at the 3DM-SPORT.COM website and it says they use 10mm spacers. Using undersized spacers will put an axial pre-load on the bearing so the wheel doesn't spin freely. Oversize them and you may get wheel slop with the wheels sliding from side to side from the slop now introduced in the bearing pocket.

I know a lot of skaters who would pay for a high quality, racing quality steel spacer (ground bearing surfaces would be nice).”
This was orgininally a quote he made elsewhere, but I noticed some discrepencys on the 3dm website and quoted Mike here

So I guess that a hub gap and spacer should be .400" But I also don't see how every hub could be exact either.

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:15 am

I just can't figure out why truck manufacturers persist in using inch measurements when bearings are metric. Even trucks that are "made in the usa", such as indy, use axles and bolts sourced from China and surely they have metric stuff they could sell them. I guess the fear is that they may get some 8mm axles that are outside the tolerance and larger than 8mm and then the bearings wouldn't fit on (since bearings are much more carefully produced and won't go over). Hmm...

Similarly, wheel dimensions and spacer requirement and spacer sizes should all be metric as well.

Brady Mitchell
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Post by Brady Mitchell » Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:25 am

Rich,
Using your logic, the direct solution is make everything standard to the US way of measurement (inches) since mounting hardware, axles, and kingpins are US standard.

But what about wheels ? Well, I prefer the metric way>> 85mm, 80mm, 74mm, 70mm, etc, is easier than 2 inch something, something, etc.

Now on issue with bearing spacers, just having a standard hub measurement would be nice. And I think it has already been hashed and rehashed over and over. The standard is .400 " (ask for 10mm and you`ll get 0.400" (standard with Bones Swiss bearings)

So the next question is, which spacer is Ron going to supply with his bearings?

As for dissing Ron> It was perceived that I dissed him by just asking him a question. He then goes and reams me a new bog hole over comments some ANON posted (and I think it`s from an Oust hyper).

Since you seem to have his back, do you also kiss ass for him?

Yeah, I hate to do this on the forums but since he won`t respond to my emails and it was he who shot the sheot over on ncdsa, he had it coming.

I think I`ll disassemble my Bones Swiss and give them a good cleaning and lube to alleviate the stress. That`ll make `em last another year or so....
Last edited by Brady Mitchell on Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Got ants?

Terry Kirby
Team RoeRacing
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Post by Terry Kirby » Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:42 am

"People on Ludes should not post"

Glenn S
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Post by Glenn S » Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:19 am

Glenn S wrote:
Terence Kirby wrote:Racing should always be the test as to what works and what doesnt. Everything else is just theory.
If a racer can got to the bottoom of a corse faster useing spacers thot means that luss fricktion has afeected the bearinges. Racing resluts are the proff.
i think that this is key. racing resluts are the proff. if there is less friction thot means less weer. less friction is fastor. less fricktion they last longer. it is just a win won situasion.

Nick Krest
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Post by Nick Krest » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:50 am

The measurements 10mm and .400" are used interchangeably by both wheel and bearing manufacturers, though .400" is actually 10.16mm.

I've just spoken with the manufacturer of the wheels I am importing from Australia, and he purposely designs their wheels with a core width of 9.98mm, because there are so many undersized spacers on the market, and he has yet to see one come in oversized, in 26 years of making wheels. We both agreed that .02mm is certainly an acceptable tolerance, considering that the majority of skateboard axles are 5/16", rather than 8mm in the first place.

Again, the theoretical and the actual are at odds with each other.

The only spacers I have yet measured that came in at a true .400" are the spacers from ABEC11. Chris apparently has those made to his specs.

Bones bearings, by the way, no longer come with spacers - even the Swiss.

Brady Mitchell
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Post by Brady Mitchell » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:55 am

TK,
t`ain`t ludes. It`s the bug juice..heh heh!!

Actually I made the post in haste and couldn`t get back on to clean it up. Maybe Jani was tweaking it or something?
Got ants?

Glenn S
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Post by Glenn S » Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:16 pm

Brady Mitchell wrote:TK,
t`ain`t ludes. It`s the bug juice..heh heh!!

Actually I made the post in haste and couldn`t get back on to clean it up. Maybe Jani was tweaking it or something?
Hey you went back and cleaned up your post. That's not fair. Now it looks like my last post was pretending to be on ludes.

Hey what is it about Bearings and Spacers anyways that gets skaters all riled up? Maybe Adam T. and Jani did not add a “General Bearings Discussion” for a reason?

Steve Collins
Harbor Skateboard Racing
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are you talkin' a me?

Post by Steve Collins » Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:56 pm

Glenn S wrote:
Hey what is it about Bearings and Spacers anyways that gets skaters all riled up? Maybe Adam T. and Jani did not add a “General Bearings Discussion” for a reason?
... perhaps you haven't heard of the shady cartel otherwise known as the Bearing Mafia? ;)

Glenn S
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Post by Glenn S » Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:00 pm

The "Bearing Mafia" :-? .......Is that like a club?

A line from the club theme song: "Forever let us hold our Pampers high!"

Brady Mitchell
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Location: Hollywood Hills, Florida

Post by Brady Mitchell » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:54 am

Actually it`s "let us hold our BANNERS high" of which would be more apropo.

I can see Ron, Carl, and Ed jousting for banner space at the next big race.

Remember when Chaput`s banner was covered up at La Costa `01?...DOH!!!
Got ants?

Tod Oles
Lone Stranger Racing
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Re: I don't make a living at this said...

Post by Tod Oles » Sun Feb 29, 2004 4:49 pm

Glenn,
I said, "Micrometer....? Where the hell is my Paxil" and you replied,
Ok, well I do know two good slalom skateboarders that do use a micrometer and I am sure that others might. I think that it makes sense, but for me I'm just trying to make it around the cones and that is more important to me at this point.


I was poking fun at myself as I honestly need to police myself from this kind of behavior:)
I do see the full validity of "miking" all components used towards racing applications, but, as of now at my talent level, a micrometer would only make how slow I am PERFECTLY clear!

I Enjoy your posts and obvious enthusiasm, Cheers, Tod

Glenn S
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Post by Glenn S » Sun Feb 29, 2004 5:41 pm

Yeah me too Tod I understood your post, I felt similar, that is why I quoted you. Funny thing maybe measuring your spacers might just make life easier. It is frustrating to put everything together only to have to back off the nut to make the wheel spin and feel the play in the wheel too especially with 5/16" axles on stock conventional trucks.

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