A face for our sport

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Moderator: Jani Soderhall

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Hans Koraeus
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A face for our sport

Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:53 am

This came up elsewhere but I thought it needed a topic of its own.
John Gilmour wrote:the home page- slalomskateboarder.com.
I need to see new content.
I don't even go to that homepage since probably more than a year back. I always go to www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB (the forum) directly. Sometimes I don't even understand when people say "I was at slalomskateboarder and there are only old stuff. Look's like slalom died some time ago." Then a couple of seconds later I understand that they are talking about the homepage.

It sure is not a good place to send people interested in slalom right now unless you give them clear instructions to go directly to the forum. We desperatly need a place where we can send sponsors and the like to get a good and simple overview of the current slalom scene. Sending them to a forum is not a good idea. If we want to get some big sponsors for next year to support our sport and main events we need to act now.

I often talk to people of the growing skateboard slalom scene and each time I feel that I can't really give them a website that is good enough to go and look at. Especially for those who just want to have an idea what it is all about. Luckily I can give them the latest Slalom! magazine but it starts getting old too now. If we want to be able to push this sport forward we need to get some big sponsors aboard and we need to give them something in exchange. We need to build up a face for our sport. We need to be able to show that we have something serious going on. And even if that is not the case right now we need to get a face showing what our goal is and what we are aiming for.

I feel like ghost writer for Bush or Kerry. No fun now when the election is over. Let's try to continue that election hype over here.

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Faceless

Post by Jack Smith » Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:03 am

I agree the site needs to be updated. I do not have the time or energy to do it. Plus, I would probably screw it up if I tried to change the front page.

I do find it interesting that when I bought the name and site there was all this discussion about how it should be owned by a group/community, and yet when I offer to sell it to a group/community, everyone gets real quiet.

It would be great if a group would step forward and take over the site, and improve on a good start. We're talking $600. Heck, just make me an offer, all I want is for slalom to grow.

And now I'm going to say something that I have been holding inside for quite awhile.

If more of the current crop of racers don't start promoting slalom to both kids and adults in their respective areas it will die.

All of us know how much fun slalom is, share it. Stop preaching to the choir, organize a demo or grassroots race, invite street or vert skaters to come ride with you. Invite mountain bikers, road cyclists, tiddley wink players or even traditional jocks. Let people know about our fun.

If you have never put on a contest, call or email me, I will gladly share what I have learned with you.

Let's go.

All the best,
Jack

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Re: Faceless

Post by Jani Soderhall » Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:21 am

Jack Smith wrote:I do find it interesting that when I bought the name and site there was all this discussion about how it should be owned by a group/community, and yet when I offer to sell it to a group/community, everyone gets real quiet.
Jack,

You've heard my reply in private prior to this, but I still want to answer your post here. Partly because I'm also anxious to find a solution.

First off, when "all this discussion about a community site" was ongoing there was only Hans and I on that side of the pack. Everybody else was happy with the new direction.

Both Hans and I were discouraged by the way Adam transferred the site. He had a right to get out, that's alright, but to consider the site a property and ask money for it was too much and ruined the foundation of what we had built up so far.

Now that you want to leave the site after only a few months, it proves to me that this wasn't the right way forward. It would have been foreseeable that any one person would not have the energy, motivation and time to do all that's needed to make the site go forward, which is what it dearly needs. By making it one persons "property", I believe it makes people think twice before proposing their services. It also makes it harder to ask people to help.

I have been asked off line several times about the future of the site and I have always answered that I'm ready to bear a part of the responsibilities if someone comes up with a clever way to solve the ownership issue. As I wrote Jack privately my primary objection is to PAY to take over the site.

Without posting, I have continued to do part of my administrational tasks here just to make sure that the site's future is not endangered by anyone from the outside.


I will end this post with a request to those who posted in the flamed topic of "Transfer of ownership" to support Adams method of tranferring the site to step forward now and come up with some ideas on how to take the next step. Come on guys, don't be shy. Where are YOUR ideas on moving forward?

/Jani

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COLLABORATION

Post by Steve Collins » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:02 pm

Jani,

I suggest that we not be too concerned with who owns the domain name. If it could just stay in Jack's name for at least the time being that would be convenient. Jack has clearly stated that he wants to hand off the running of the site. That really opens things up for the possibility of input from all over. For the moment, it all stays the same as before, except with Jack owning the domain name instead of Adam.

The issue is: Who gets to have control over the format, maintaining & updating of the site? Perhaps the answer lies in the open-source community. We do it because we love it and nobody is concerned about ownership or profits (at least theoretically). Having a truly collaborative environment could turn out to be chaotic but could also be invigorating and would protect against the endemic problems associated with ncdsa.com.

I think the above is close to what you have been proposing.

How best to collaborate? How is input that goes beyond mere posting to be reviewed and added to the site? There have to be models out there already for that sort of thing. We shouldn't have to reinvent the notion of across-the-web collaboration.

The first step is for everyone to agree to collaborate (or not).

Cheers!

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hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Post by John Gilmour » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:06 pm

But I think it is time slalomskateboarders took ownership of a site for themselves.

The answer to this is to set up a paypal account for Jack to recoup the money he spent for the site.

Skaters can "buy" a single share in slalomskateboarder.com for $2 and be an owner.

I don't want people buying multiple shares and trying to have more ownership. if someone wants to give more than $2 that is fine...but they will only get one share.

I also don't think we should force people to buy shares to access slalomskateboarder.com...it is only if they feel the content has been worthwhile.

if you don't like this idea- how about this one?


A cool thing would be a link to retailers that puts in a tag to place $1 as an optional "Purchase item" when ordering their "slalom set up" in a shopping cart. So that when people make a purchase it is easy for them to recognize the value slalomskateboarder.com was to them in deciding their purchase. The $1 would go towards site administration costs, as well as general slalom promotion...be that banners, contests, prize money to be allocated to contests, appreciation plaques or certificates to large companies that supported slalom- like Red Bull, Pepsi etc.

I don't think people would want to go through the bother of paypaling as a separate "thank you" to slalomskateboarder.com but I do think people would click a box to add $1 and I think it would be good for slalomskateboarder.com to have some source of income for doing things like promoting contest. I think for every item a slalomer researches here- that he wants to buy...say a high tech truck, or a board...I think $1 is a bargain- and people only click that box if they want to.

Vendors would be on the honor system to paypal the money to ss.com. (or perhaps there is a way to automate this so they don't need to keep track- like a one click link that doesn't require them to fill out an addittional paypal slip) It would be easy to add- just like adding a new sku# item in their inventory on the shopping list. If you want verification we could have an email that went to ss.com automatically when payment was made...but I don't think that is needed. A simple description of what the $1 went for would be good.

*** Option...
And they get added to a list of "owners of Slalomskateboarder.com" who have contributed to the site. For people that give multiple times- they get an extra * by their name for each donation made for each purchase.

I would like to see a SS.com contest kit circulate in a trunk- or have a ss.com kit for schools in trunks for kids. (Banners, timing system, timing program, demo decks , cones rules).

Having something like this would be great and would take some coordination between vendors and ss.com but it would really help develop grass roots slalom, as well as support the site, and vendors could feel more connected to the site without feeling like an advertiser.

Most importantly- it is no money out of the vendors pocket- advertising is an expensive tax for emerging manufacturers.


I think this would quickly settle the issue. Jack would have his cash back quickly. We would also have a continous trickly of cash to help cover costs and promote slalom.


A quick draft of the item box would be.

"I'd like to thank slalom skateboarder.com for helping make my purchase decision easier. I would like to become an owner of slalomskateboarder.com for $1 and for every successive $1 I give I'll get additional recognition on the owners list. I realize that my $1 will be used to support the site and help fund efforts to expand slalom skateboarding world wide.



Where can I send the first dollar?
One good turn deserves another
john gilmour

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Re: Collaboration

Post by Jani Soderhall » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:56 pm

Steve Collins wrote:Who gets to have control over the format, maintaining & updating of the site? Perhaps the answer lies in the open-source community.
...
How best to collaborate? How is input that goes beyond mere posting to be reviewed and added to the site?
...
The first step is for everyone to agree to collaborate (or not).
Five, six of us currently have access to the site in FTP mode and could do updates, post pictures & videos and potentially even damage the site. It has worked so far, all sharing the same login. The work has mostly been restricted to uploading images and videos, but there is a variety of other tasks to be done. Adam was responsible for getting the images and titles of racers up and assumed his role as supreme moderator. I did basically everything else.

I think we could pretty easily get a collaboration model up and working. I assume there are enough skaters interested in keeping this site going and ready to give a helping hand, so although this is the most interesting aspect of what lies in front of us, I still think the ownership has to be settled first, before we can get on with the rest.

To me it can't be a true community site if the owner considers himself "owner" and could envisage "selling" the site. I think we need a clear statement that this site is community owned and not someones individual property even if someone has to be the registered owner on paper. Johns proposal on shared ownership is one of right type. I've been promoting the idea of share holding, mostly off-line, but have yet to come up with the complete scheme to make it work.

Maybe it's just as easy as:

* I'll buy the site by advancing the necessary money.

* I'll sign over ownership to the ISSA (which after all is reason why the site was created - as a tribute to the ISSA and Slalom! magazine).

* I resign from my old, but current, post of president of the ISSA.

* A new "ISSA" is created with new guidelines, new goals, a new board of directors etc. It's primary goal being something like "Promoting international collaboration to develop slalom skateboarding". (The best method I can think of today is by running this site and making sure topics are brought up to discussion. John mentioned other activities that could be considered as we move on.)

* ISSA elects someone to be the owner of the site in the registry files. For example John. Having invested almost no money (only a participation of $2 or $20 or so) would not be able to defend a total ownership. He'd simply accept to hold onto it for administrational reasons.

* The ISSA then obtains monthly sponsorship (as before), sells "shares" and possibly through other methods generates cash to:
a) pay the monthly site maintenance
b) refund me for the expenses
The montly sponsors and other share holders would be forever recognized in an appropriate listing.

Sure some people like to express their mixed feelings about something called the ISSA that they heard about, but never knew. But that's history. If you're a regular visitor to this site with its Slalom! logo, you can probably live with the revival, in a different format, of this historical association.


To clarify, I do not want a too important role in this new organization. I will do whatever is choosen to be my part, but I cannot allocate the time needed to do much more than a smaller part. A shared committment is needed to make this happen.



... just something to keep the debate going.


/Jani

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Post by Adam Trahan » Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:17 am

Jani,

There are two sides to the story.

I don't feel the need to tell mine again.

Personally, I hope that Gilmour's idea takes hold.

Have fun,

adam

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:07 am

Jani Soderhall wrote:* I'll buy the site by advancing the necessary money.
I'll revise that because there are already several proposals to chip in a part of the foundation money. Looks like we could have 6 people paying $100 each, out of which 25 is a donation and 75 is to be reimbursed. I suggest Jack should be one of those 6.

No objections, no counter proposals?

I've got my credit card out already... Better act now if you want to have a say in this story. It may soon be too late for those of you who don't like this idea.

/Jani

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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:27 am

i would like to throw 100 in the pot too

how and when is the next question,jani

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Post by Steve Collins » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:54 am

Jack has expressed the desire to be bought out, so this is probably good.

I'm assuming that this is just an interim measure with the basic intention of preserving the site, with the long-term interest being the redevelopment of the site.

On the other hand, if there are only six "investors", how will a broad range of input be preserved? In other words, how will the site be protected from the possibility of a close group of individuals becoming overly dominant in determining it's direction? Will a future, further parcelling out occur? Determining a consensus on that issue might be a good idea.

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Post by Pierre-Yves Ritschard » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:11 am

Hi

Most of you must not know me as I haven't been in the slalom game for too long and I've only competed in french slalom events (PSWC, Antibes and St-germain).
When I'm not slaloming or bombing hills, I'm a security IT consultant and we do our share of domain name buying and selling.

Today I host 4 important community web sites one of which is run by me and my association: Riderz.net.
Our goal is to promote riding in many of its forms, and especially downhill and slalom. Our website sports more than 3000 users. We also are the organisers of the Paris Slalom World Cup, with the help of Jani.

I read with interests the whole controversy on the ownership of the domain. I understand that conceding ownership of a domain to another person is difficult, hence the long argument here on ss.com. Now what strikes me is the price you put on the domain, I really think $600 is way too much, as an example, for $60 i could have today slalomskateboarder.net, slalomskateboarder.org, slalomskater.net and slalomskater.org, all pointing to a site containing the same userbase and content than slalomskateboarder.com. Yep $15 per domain is what you pay these days.

Of course, nobody's willing to do that and we better work things out together.
If the community is willing to trust us, I propose the following scenario:

We buy the domain from jack smith, restore administrative rights to the team (with our help of the migration and day to day administration if we can be helpful) and ask for a small fee each month to recover the cost of the domain (it is the case today isn't it ?).

I think it would be a move towards a fully community owned website, as we are not 1 person but an association with no strings attached to any vendor.

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Post by Pierre-Yves Ritschard » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:16 am

And by the way, in the previous thread started by adam trahan, there was a talk about electing the administrators and editors of the site.
I'd be willing to have a system like that were we to host the domain.

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How should it be organised?

Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:06 pm

Steve Collins wrote:I'm assuming that this is just an interim measure with the basic intention of preserving the site, with the long-term interest being the redevelopment of the site.
The six initial investors is just to avoid it being one person. It is a temporary measure, but these people would be ready to throw in 100 each whereas the standard contribution would be for example 25. It just a loan until there are enough 25 dollar donations.
Steve Collins wrote:How will the site be protected from the possibility of a close group of individuals becoming overly dominant in determining it's direction?
This will be new board of directors, either of ISSA (call it whatever you like), or why not a subgroup dedicated to the forum itself.

Ideas welcome on how to handle the formalities of this group and it's election. But in principle I think the most important is a statement from whoever is the group of owners, that in reality they're not the owners but merely the representatives in the interest of the community. That would allow this group to change, either in a structured way with election, or in an unstructured way by simple "I'm in, I'm out". The list of collaborators need to be publicly known and maintained. The more the better, but it needs to be a dedicated group, actually doing something. Those not working will somehow automatically be replaced.

/Jani

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some clarification please

Post by Matthew Wilson » Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:52 pm

Can somebody please layout the itemized list of costs for this site, please?
We are talking very globally here, but let's layout everything. You can't ask people to invest in something without them understanding the more intricate aspects of the picture.

For example, I donated $23 or 25 (can't remember which) for the site for October or November in the name of Boston area slalom, but I have no idea what that actually pays for. Is that just hosting?

Also, if ISSA actually exists, that is...on paper, as a true organization, then the domain does not have to be owned by any person at all. Simply register the domain in the name of ISSA. If there are appointed/elected officers within ISSA, then it would be their duty to simply maintain the ownership status of the domain.

As far as site maintence goes...I think that there are enough geeks in the community to put together a healthy ring of web developers and designers who can contribute to site updates. I will include myself as one of these people.

Next, we are talking about TWO different things here:
1) Community/organization governance
2) Web Project Management

If we treat these as one thing only, we might be asking for trouble. We are bound to have people who know nothing about technology as ISSA officers trying to manage a growing piece of technology that is vital to the community's ability to communicate.

IMHO, the website needs to be handled like a website...not a community in itself. That means the maintence aspect of the site should be handled as such: project manager overseeing developers and designers.

As far as paying for the site, that is a community governence thing, in my opinion.

Get ISSA or whatever group running. Elect/appoint officers. Either the secretary or vice president (if those are the titles) should be in charge of appointing a website project manager. The project manager solicits the help of developers and designers within the community.
The treasurer figures out how to pay for the site.

I don't mean to sound like this should be so micro-managed. But I think that if we lump the community governance in with the maintenance of this site, then this site will eventually fail. Plain and simple.
slalom is good

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Moving Forward

Post by Jack Smith » Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:07 pm

This discussion is good, we are moving forward.

Pierre, the $600 is what I paid for the site. I have donated many thousands of dollars towards promoting slalom, and no I'm not rich.
I cannot afford to just eat the $600. I will however contribute $100 as Jani
suggested.

I would love to see Pierre involved with the running of ss.com. The people who have posted over the last few days have one thing in common... they love slalom.

I'm very excited about the future of ss.com

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Post by John Gilmour » Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:40 pm

well if 6 people ant to put up $100 then the issue IMHO is solved.

I would however like to be able to have people donate to Ss.com through retailers when they make a purchase.
I think it is a good way to get new people even more involved.

Like anything addictive...it all starts with the first try. Helping out in the slalom community is addictive- rewarding and fun. $1 is a way to get a small taste of participation. Even a kid can contribute- and should feel it is within his duty to do so. Most kids won't want to contribute $25 at first. They would rather put that towards gear. But over time in small increments that same kid would be willing to contribute even more than $25 everytime he buys gear.

$1 gets him a small sticker with his purchase. How about that?

$1 Small sticker for Helmet
$2 Large sticker for board
$5 pack of stickers
$20 Bad ass dealer sized sticker
$15 T-shirt
$120 Lycra body suit
$2 Cone with sticker
$15 Hat
$10 baby T
$ 40 Team jersey (retro mesh longsleeve 70's style!)
$5 Bumper sticker slalomskateboarder.com
$35 back pack
$50 Board bag

etc.... I would have to look at pricing.

If there is interest for these products I can do it- as we are just about to do a run of promotional gear for Madd Snowboards.

we have a lot of members here- like any membership drive I'd like to give something to the membership that also serves as advertising for the site.

I still like the idea of people pledging a month. We should definitely keep that going indefinitely.
One good turn deserves another
john gilmour

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:23 pm

Panda,

Your proposal of putting the ownership on an association is the way to go I think. But I don't feel that "Riderz.net" is that association. That has nothing to do with Riderz.net as association in itself. I would think the same of any other simular approach. The ownership I think should be in the hands of a pure international skateboard slalom association. Just happens there once was one so why not revive that one.

Then step two. How will we build up ISSA again. I think Jani explained that very well above. What I would like to add is that the core board of directors should contain people from all the different international slalom regions. To talk world ranking language for example 3 from West Atlantic region and 3 from East Atlantic region.

The board of directors I see more like a couple of persons having a surveying role to make sure things are done in the spirit of an international slalom scene/association. Not much work hopefully. But then under ISSA I can see many different sections/tasks that would need some working hands...
- an international skateboard slalom site
- an international skateboard slalom forum
- an international slalom magazine (Slalom!)
- marketing and sponsors on an international level
- basic rules and definitions
- international world ranking
- world tour
- T-shirts, stickers, ...
- administrative tasks like taking care of accounts and the likes (a treasurer?)

What have I forgot? Well it doesn't matter. There are things enough for everyone who wants to help out. :-)

But let's take one step at a time. I'm in for a $100 to make the ball start rolling...

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Re: some clarification please

Post by Jani Soderhall » Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:30 am

Matthew,
Matthew Wilson wrote:Can somebody please layout the itemized list of costs for this site, please? For example, I donated $23 for the site one month.
At the time when Adam started asking for participation to the monthly costs these were the figures:

Host : $10
ISP: $10
Domain Registration: $35 per year / 12 months = $3 per month

Matthew Wilson wrote:Also, if ISSA actually exists, that is...on paper, as a true organization, then the domain does not have to be owned by any person at all. Simply register the domain in the name of ISSA.
To my knowledge there seems to be no way to register a site in the name of an organization. Also the ISSA was never a registered association. It was just a way to work together.
Matthew Wilson wrote:As far as site maintence goes...I think that there are enough geeks in the community to put together a healthy ring of web developers and designers who can contribute to site updates.
I think we should be able to come up with a suitable team. I'm glad you volunteer.
Matthew Wilson wrote:The website needs to be handled like a website...not a community in itself. As far as paying for the site, that is a community governence thing, in my opinion.
Yoiu're right, if we have an organization covering many aspects, we need to create a number of working groups with the qualified people (for each aspect).
Matthew Wilson wrote:Get ISSA or whatever group running. Elect/appoint officers. Either the secretary or vice president (if those are the titles) should be in charge of appointing a website project manager. The project manager solicits the help of developers and designers within the community. The treasurer figures out how to pay for the site.
Well, that's the process I'm proposing here. It couldn't be done without a consensus. We used to have country representatives and they had the voting power. Maybe we should renew that system, maybe invent something else.

Here's a proposal for a new, different, interesting voting system.

- Ownership shares in SS.com is $25
- Monthly sponsorship is $25

Both of these options gives the person one vote. No limit to the number of owners/monthly sponsors, the more the better. All previous monthly sponsors obtain one vote each (which instantly creates approximately 15 votes, add the new "investors" and there are 20). I initially thought nobody would be able to own more than one vote, but maybe we have a better chance of accumulating some money if every $25 paid gives one vote. Some people would then have more voting power, which may seem awkward, but it works in companies.

The money obtained would help initiate the actions that JG proposes and which I fully support. Corky has mentioned a whole agenda too which needs financing.

There will be too many aspects to discuss in one thread, but it's good to throw up a number of ideas here outlining the general ideas. We'll then split the discussion into a multitude of threads to nail down the details.

...more ideas anybody?

/Jani

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:40 pm

Jani wrote:Also the ISSA was never a registered association
Then let's do it now. :-) I don't know what it takes to do it but only in this thread there seems be people who could know. Why not create it in a neutral place like "Isle of Man" or something. I've heard that is a common way to do it.

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International coming together

Post by Steve Collins » Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:48 pm

I like the ISSA idea a lot, although I am concerned that certain people not feel put off by it. There is also the issue of those in my humble State who have never really taken it seriously. Perhaps a period of rapproachment would help assure the necessary widespread involvement before the site is committed to that specific organizational course.

If we are suggesting locations for the ISSA to be registered in, I nominate Bali, Indonesia. Another option might be Raglan, New Zealand. (That's right, Glenn, I know you see where this is going - MEETINGS!) Perhaps the very best location, following the same sensibility, would be Bilbao, Spain. How controversial is Spain in this forum?

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:45 pm

Steve,

I don't worry too much about what people think about the ISSA. With a new constitution, new board members and new strategies I don't see why anybody would have to be concerned with it. I think we shouldn't miss out on the opportunity to use an organization which can point to a history of 20 years. That's probably worth something as we approach potential company sponsors outside of the slalom world. The alternative would be to tell them that we started less than 6 months ago (or something like that). How impressive is that?

Maybe some people have something against me in person, which is OK. But those have probably kept away from publicly posting on this site so far. But let's make sure my role is diminished, or inexistant, and that situation is dealt with. As to voting "power" I have already suggested a somewhat democratic voting system which would only give me one vote.

/Jani

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Post by John Gilmour » Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:45 am

I'll never understand the resistence to the ISSA by those who never participated in it.

All ISSA was was a discussion forum to try and get some standards passed. That way not EVERY contest was a completely new learning experience, so we could concentrate more on the racing and NOT constantly changing rules which seemed rather arbitrary.

Rules at some slalom races I have attended in the 1970's and 80's were just plain ridiculous. Hand held stopwatches, traffic cones, line judges....it ruined the racing experience.

So If we don't call an organization ISSA what should we call it? (You know, it really doesn't matter what name we use)

And in what ways should it be different than ISSA? I'll accept a different organization if we can get everyone on board- as that is the ENTIRE purpose of having an International organization.

I think what bothers ISSA objectors more than anything else is having to deal with an International organization as opposed to just making up their own domestic rules and not having to answer to a committee.

I think that we will have to relax some of the definitions that were older ISSA definitions which seemed to mostly pertain to shortboard slalom. I think the old ISSA defintions fit too narrow a range of racing. (Mostly not very steep racing and shorter courses and focusing on shorter wheelbase decks) (the reason for this was to make all access about the same to everyone- whether they came from a hilly region or not- but in retrospect I guess this is no longer needed as there is considerably more diversity in the types of courses and slalom racing than ever before)

I also think we have to make a good effort to accept our flatland breathren and Ultra TS racers from the UK and Moscow (should there be any Ultra TS racers left there) and Japan. We must recognize and extend credit to these promoters to further grow the slalom scene and promote more racer exchange.

This can be done- but only if people work constructively and instead of argueing work towards division we should work towards being cohesive.....because ALL Good Rules in sports are an elegant compromise.

I think 1 vote each is good to start - we can consider some other way of recognizing those with accumulated judgement from more race experience later.
One good turn deserves another
john gilmour

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ISSA - old rules or new?

Post by Jani Soderhall » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:29 am

John,

Rules: Of course the rules must be completely revised. They were developed back then with the situation we had then. Now some things are widely different, a few others are not. It'll be good to use the ISSA rulebook to have a starting point for the discussion, but I assume much of it has to be re-written. There is no point in keeping old stuff that is not applicable.


Voting power: I would extend my previous proposal of $25 a vote and let anybody buy as many shares as they like. We shouldn't say no to money, and those that pay more, should be recognized as having a stronger interest and therefor voting power. However we should add that nobody can at any one situation have more than a 10% voting power (you can pay more, but your vote will be resticted). That would shield the site from ever being taken over through a simple buyout.

/Jani

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:26 am

Pierre-Yves Ritschard wrote:Today we host 4 important community web sites one of which is run by me and my association: Riderz.net.
Our goal is to promote riding in many of its forms, and especially downhill and slalom. Our website sports more than 3000 users.
Pierre-Yves proposal to host the site solves an aspect which we yet haven't had any problem with, but certainly will once we grow bigger: Bandwidth and diskspace.

Riderz have been thrown out from a number of providers because the site generates too much traffic. No commercial providers wants them anymore. Since 8 months or so they are hosted by a computer university using their own hardware. Bandwidth is excellent. But they're still aiming for more. The French ISP www.Free.fr has offered to host the new equipment being donated to the Riderz association by a sponsor for FREE. They'll be using a 1 gigabit (!) line which won't be saturated even when traffic increases further.

If Riderz would host the forum we'd be able to profit from "unlimited" bandwidth. It's not a problem for us yet, our provider www.phpWebHosting.com is not (yet) complaining and so far they've allowed us all the diskspace we've needed. The easiest would be to just stay where we are, but if we were to be thrown out later, we might regret not having taken Riderz offer now.

/Jani

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm

Maybe I misunderstood Panda but he said...
Pierre-Yves Ritschard wrote:We buy the domain from jack smith, restore administrative rights to the team (with our help of the migration and day to day administration if we can be helpful) and ask for a small fee each month to recover the cost of the domain (it is the case today isn't it ?).


I'm not against them hosting it if that was the idea. I was only against them having the ownership of "slalomskateboarder.com". If there is an advantage of hosting it with them I don't see any problems with that. Two different things to me.

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Post by Pierre-Yves Ritschard » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:12 am

I proposed two things:

1. hosting of the site, since it would be cheaper for you and more flexible
2. taking ownership of the domain since it seemed nobody stepped up to do it and an association seemed better than an individual or a company, but if you revive ISSA there's no discussion than it would be better for ISSA to own the domain.

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Help Jack, help ourselves.

Post by Sam Gordon » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:32 pm

I'll match Campbell's offer.

Count me in among THE SIX.

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Post by Michael Stride » Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:25 pm

I have Jacks Smiths kitten. If he doesnt agree to our demands he gets it OK? (the Kitten that is)

Image

There is alwasy a simple answer to most problems.

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:40 pm

Sam, great - you're in! Let's launch the friendly take over bid next week.
Michael Stride wrote:I have Jack Smiths kitten. If he doesn't agree to our demands he gets it OK? (the Kitten that is).
There is always a simple answer to most problems.
Michael, I read "our demands", should I count you in too?

/Jani

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Post by Donald Campbell » Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:15 am

sam michael dani myself jani corky
that should be it
let's get things going,jani
do you have a paypal account?
with the smart brits joining the group of investors,future looks bright
let's finish this once and for all

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Non-vested interest

Post by Sam Gordon » Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:41 am

Being neither smart, fast, nor responsible I'd just like to get this sorted, mashed, wrapped, sized up and pumped out.

Either this (ssb.c) cat gets the cream or I'm driving off Beachy Head astride this:

Image

Let's go.
Last edited by Sam Gordon on Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kitten held up

Post by Eric Brammer » Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:29 am

Man, is That ever CRUEL!! Don't you know Cats just absolutely Hate Squirt-Guns!! Fiend!
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Post by Heiko Schöller » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:40 am

Hi Jani

You can count me in too!!! I just heard of it on Sunday and I think it´s good for me to get into the boat. I can paypal 100 bucks directly if you want!!!
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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:23 pm

so much interest and no reply on the incentives...
what's up,jani?
too much work on hand?
hope you'll find a few secs this week to give us details.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:16 pm

To get back to the "A face for our sport" topic have a look at this article about working for skateboard in the olympics (2008?).

Skateboard in the olympics article

Olympic dreams will need international and local associations for that sport. If there is an international skateboard federation created for this purpose that would be a huge step. After all we are a part of a big skateboard family.

This forum is not the whole world. It's only a small part even of an international slalom association that would handle...
- an international skateboard slalom site
- an international skateboard slalom forum
- an international slalom magazine (Slalom!)
- marketing and sponsors on an international level
- basic rules and definitions
- international world ranking
- world tour
- T-shirts, stickers, ...
- administrative tasks like taking care of accounts and the likes (a treasurer?)
- And more...

And an international slalom association is only a part of the international skateboard scene.

I hope that they think about the whole skateboard family if a new international skateboard association is created. With sub sections for both Street, Vert, Slalom, Flatland freestyle, Downhill and other.

By creating an international slalom association it could be a good step to get us all working in the same direction and to show that slalom is something to count on. That would be a good face for our sport towards a possible international skateboard association and by that also for olympic slalom dreams. Slalom is perfect for the olympics. :-) For now we are too small but looking at the family of skateboarding as a whole we are quite big. If skateboard gets in and we can sell ourselves toward the skateboard community...

We have to get organized. That is our only chance right now with the current slalom scene. Unfortuantley skateboarders are much like chickens. We all want to run in our own direction. Have a look at the movie "Chicken Run" and you will understand. Let's get organized! ...before it's too late.

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Post by alavoine jean paul » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:20 pm

Hans Koraeus wrote:And an international slalom association is only a part of the international skateboard scene.

I hope that they think about the whole skateboard family if a new international skateboard association is created. With sub-sections for Street, Vert, Slalom, Flatland freestyle, Downhill and other.
I'm really glad we're coming to that...
jean paul aka POPOL:
"I was born yesterday...
but I stayed up all night!"

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:51 pm

donald campbell wrote:what's up,jani?
too much work on hand?
Donald & Heiko,

Thank's for your support. It's really cool. Let's move forward now.

Yes, I've been too busy with my kids last week and every hour while they slept I spent on working with the forum the freestyle skaters use. I will not write the URL here, because I temporarily closed the forum for them during the work. My friend Stefan "Lillis" Åkesson who helped design part of this site is a World Champion freestyler and helping him fix the forum that he is in charge of as it had started falling into pieces. It's been tricky business, or at least slow, because their provider is not as good as ours!

I'll contact Jack this week and discuss with him how to move forward.

/Jani

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Slalom in the Olympics.

Post by Wes Eastridge » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:26 am

WTF is that “International Association of Skateboard Companies” and why should they have any influence on how skateboarding is represented in the Olympics? I wouldn’t expect them to have any interest in slalom. Look what happened to non-GS snowboard slalom in the Winter Olympics.

Skateboard slalom is perfect for the Olympics. While I participate-in/appreciate some forms of skateboarding that this “IASC” holds interest in, I do not want a subjectively-judged format of skateboarding to make it into the Olympics before slalom racing does.
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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:14 am

we'll be waiting for your signal,jani

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Post by Rich Stephens » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:00 am

Skateboarding is perfect for the Olympics? Yes, timed skateboarding events (racing) resembles other sports that are in the Olympics and so one could come to that conclusion but, man, i would be so bummed to see skateboarding of any sort in the Olympics. And I really like a lot of the Olympics.

It seems the further geographically you get from the origin, the more something like putting skateboarding in the Olympics might sound like a good idea. But it makes no sense to me. So can someone explain to me: why the big desire for acceptance from the rest of the world? Why the desire to turn skateboarding into a "sport" like every other? Why the push to organize and sanitize and normalize something as free and pure as skateboarding (or at least it was and still can be free and pure)? There is such a thing as too many rules and too much standardization and too much concern for public image and too much desire for public accolade. No?

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Post by Wes Eastridge » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:02 am

For those of us that actively participate in slalom racing, the attraction to it being in the Olympics is undeniable.

Slalom racing could easily fit in the Olympics and not harm what we have all built up. Even our biggest events are still completely grass roots. There is no place to go but up when it comes to slalom joining something as established and prestigious as the Olympics.

As for there being “such a thing as too many rules”, slalom is really a rules concept, yet it is a very simple one. There is no reason anyone should be afraid of the Olympics “ruining” slalom.
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:10 pm

I have heard this thing about the olympics ruining the soul of skateboarding since the early 1980's. And that from some of the top pro skaters at the time. I don't know if there have been a change of mind in general since then or if people think the same.

Maybe there are just two different kind of sport people. Those who like more the racing/competition part of it and those who like more the feeling/free riding part of it.

Does a sport have a soul? Maybe. But in that case it can have multiple souls. Just look at snowboarding. In the beginning it was just pure feeling and freeriding. It was a lot of skateboard "soul" in it. Then it started to get more and more into competitions and racing. I too at the time thought that snowboarding was loosing its soul but what happened was only that a new soul of snowboarding was created. I had nothing incommon with those hardboot snowboard slalomers except that what they did was also called snowboarding. Sure the soul of snowboarding has changed since back then and I must admit that I do also use hardboots now and then when snowboarding. Uhh, that felt hard to write. But for me the soul of snowboarding is more inside of me than in the sport itself. I will do my snowboard thing whetever them racing people do but I do realize that it has brought a lot of good to the sport in general. You don't have to climb those hills by foot anymore and you don't have to fight with those lift guys to take the lift up the hills with your snowboard. Now you are welcomed as a snowboarder at the slopes.

Funny enough now I'm a "hardboot" slalom skateboarder. I think the racing part of it is more fun than the freeriding part. So what do I want to say with all this. All evolution of the sport is good. Even those parts that you don't fancy much.

I agree with WesE about “International Association of Skateboard Companies”. Why should they have any influence on how skateboarding is represented in the Olympics? But then again, I also believe whatever they do it will be good for skateboarding (and slalom skateboarding) in the end. All evolution of the sport is good so I support them for the sake of skateboarding. Then the next battle is to fight for slalom as a respected discipline in the international skateboard community/world.

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Post by Jack Quarantillo » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:22 pm

Hans Koraeus wrote:I agree with WesE about “International Association of Skateboard Companies”. Why should they have any influence on how skateboarding is represented in the Olympics?
It is fairly simple. In the absence of an organization representing the skateboarders, the association of companies is the only voice.

I cannot speak for what is happening in the rest of the world, but my guess is the Olympics see the huge popularity of the X Games. They are looking to tap into that fan base and interest base (and $$$$). I doubt the Olympics even know slalom skateboarding exists.

If an effort can be made to create an international organization of slalom skateboarders, then we'd have a voice. That would be a start. Until then, we will continue to carry on Grass Roots Style.

Q

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Post by Rich Stephens » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:29 pm

Ah ha. There is the question to ask: what benefits do any of these organizational ideas being discussed have *to participants* over simply continuing in the grass roots style we now have?

I can see the benefits of an organization and olympic participation to the corporate world, but I'm not seeing how it could increase the fun I have riding a skateboard. Anyone?

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Post by Peter Klang » Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:40 pm

Rich wrote:I can see the benefits of an organization and olympic participation to the corporate world, but I'm not seeing how it could increase the fun I have riding a skateboard. Anyone?
Well I can see plenty. More competitions to race (that's the fun part), hell even get big enough sponsors so we get financial help traveling to world tour events, like most good athletes in most sport do. I think it doesn’t matter what, it will end up in the Olympics, and there will be an International Slalom Skateboard Association. History proves it, if you don’t do it yourself, someone else will. I say we get in control and get our shit together, hell we all get along at the race weekends, how can it be so hard on this forum?
I just know, if slalom skateboard becomes an Olympic sport by 2008, I am in, I will kill every Swede if I have to…racing that is. Macster, bhu, I´m coming to get you.

Keep it real, even in the Olympics

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Slalom Olympics

Post by Eric Brammer » Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:22 pm

Not to discourage any of of the good 'let's get this moving' vibes here, but, I have seen from the inside just what the Olympics can do to a sport, and it ain't pretty. There's no way in hades that anyone can keep 'the soul' of a sport alive in the festering inept politics of the IOC. Sure, they want to tap into the X-Games' popularity! There's definately Money to be exploited there, brains to be washed as well.
The entire idea of the X-Games was to circumnavigate the whole IOC mess to begin with! The X-Games won't take Slalom in, it's too, um, bland and straightforward just like Streetluging is..
But to go to the IOC and say 'here we are, take us' is totally naive, if not foolhardy. Go there with a well thought out plan, and you Might, Maybe, come out with your shorts still on. Go in with your expectations up on high, eyes glassed over, you'll come out wondering just what ran over you and backed up, hit you again, and you'll be minus your shorts, dignity, and Soul.
Having seen this in Snowboarding, and having watched the FIS totally screw with Snowboarding , I'm a tad worried that anyone might want mess with my other favorite sport, Skateboarding.
I'm speaking for myself here, so, just understand that I don't want my experiences to cloud anyone's optimism, I merely wish to forewarn anyone dealing with entities like the IOC... Hire Lawyers first, then procede.
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Post by Donald Campbell » Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:37 pm

eric,thanks for your insightful post on the subject.

first of all,the body must be created though.

i see no body here,just a few peeps who share their thoughts on the i-net.

without a body nothing will happen at all,no decisions,nothing.
just hollow blabla.

maybe we should start from that point,before people start dreaming about things.

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:01 pm

It's pretty likely that this forum will be taken over in the next few in the name of ISSA. Then whatever happens to ISSA, we should discuss. I have no agenda set up. There's a lot that could be done. It'll be up to us to sort it out. This forum will be the place to discuss it. Hopefully people will committ to working in subgroups to develop one aspect of the ISSA and the forum at a time to move forward.

I'm just getting the initial group of investors together and sorting out the details with Jack. He's supportive of the idea to act, and agrees this is the right time to act.

/Jani

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:02 am

Text stolen from International Association of Skateboard Companies. I hope they don't mind spreading the word.

Olympics?!? AKA NGB AKA USA Skateboarding
John Bernards and myself attended a second meeting of the newly formed USAS (United States of America Skateboarding). At this meeting it was agreed to create a board of directors comprised of IASC along with USPA, SPAUSA, WCS and key individuals such as, Tony Hawk, Dave Carnie, Buster Halterman, Chris Miller, Gary Ream, Miki Vuckovich, Andy Macdonald, Mark Waters, Neal Hendrix and more recently Bryce Kanights, Steve Douglas, Charlie Wilkens and Pete Townend (the list is still growing!). The non-profit USAS has formed to represent skateboarding and it's best interests for the future growth and preservation of the skateboarding industries and culture.

What does this have to do with the Olympics? Nothing at this point. Though should the IOC consider a position for skateboarding in the Olympics the USAS will be in place to direct and/or protest such an effort, in the best interests of skateboarding. Much hoopla, misinformation and rumors have floated around skateboarding's presence in the Olympics for years. Whether or not skateboarding ever has a place in the Olympics, the formation of this non-profit entity can and will be instrumental in protecting and growing skateboarding into the future. I quote Pete Townend (AKA P.T.) long time surf magnate and father of Element professional skateboarder Tosh Townend, "The best interests of skateboarding must be in the hands of skateboarding" in any and all developments. This ranges from the creation and supporting youth programs, protecting the rights of the core industry in the face of megacorp insurgence, to lobbying government agencies and if need be skateboardings role in the Olympics.

The formation of the USAS is monumental. Never before in the history of skateboarding has a gathering of groups with this diversity with the common bond in the preservation and benefit of skateboarding culture and lifestyle come together. Just the presence of the groups and individuals noted above is significant. There must be something serious and beneficial happening if all these people are committing time to the USAS. IASC is proud and honored to have a voice within the USAS. More direct information beyond the IASC will quickly become available to all. Before you jump to conclusions or pass judgment, please make an effort to educate yourselves or better yet get your ass involved.

Skateboarding's secure future lies to our own responsibility. Any fault or failure to protect and preserve skateboarding will be by our own hands with lack of action or effort. Skateboarding, and skateboarders, not other organizations should be solely responsible for skateboarding's future. That's what USSA provides, skateboarders committed to developing and securing a skateboarder's future for skateboarding.

/International Association of Skateboard Companies

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:14 am

Jani Soderhall wrote:It's pretty likely that this forum will be taken over in the next few in the name of ISSA. Then whatever happens to ISSA, we should discuss. I have no agenda set up. There's a lot that could be done. It'll be up to us to sort it out. This forum will be the place to discuss it. Hopefully people will committ to working in subgroups to develop one aspect of the ISSA and the forum at a time to move forward.

I'm just getting the initial group of investors together and sorting out the details with Jack. He's supportive of the idea to act, and agrees this is the right time to act.

/Jani
It's done. News to follow shortly.

/Jani

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