[Announcement] Editorial and ownership transfer 2004

Organization and Administration

Moderator: Jani Soderhall

Glenn S
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Re: Will the REAL Martin Drayton please stand up?

Post by Glenn S » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:48 pm

Martin,
I have moderator right here on the site. I did that. It is the best I can do. If someone else (Jack, Adam, Jani) knows how to change the name and picture please do.
Regards,
Glenn
Martin Drayton wrote:Just for the record, I would be much happier if the moderator could remove my name/photo from Michael's post please. I do not want anyone thinking that I am connected with those angry postings-not my style.

HIS VIEWS ARE NOT MINE, FURTHERMORE MY VIEWS ARE MY OWN SO PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME I AGREE WITH ANY OF THE COMMENTS MADE!

Thanks, I will try to get him to log me out first in future.

Martin.

Adam Trahan
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Post by Adam Trahan » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:30 pm

Martin,

Jack can delete the post but doing the surgery to "remove" his words from your account and implanting it to Michael's is impossible as the moderators do not know passwords, etc to manipulate accounts like that. There is the possiblilty to delete the post though, that would be good form. Jani and Michael identified, you denounced that behavior, it is no reflection on you.

Dave,

Selling out? More like a realization that I did not want to be involved with these guys. Read the whole string to make a decision. It's all there for you to decide. If you want to look at it like selling out then I am ok with that.

Jani and Hans argue the "ownership" when each of you own your own words. This argument is not valid. You own your words, you can delete them or not post or what ever you want. I didn't slander anyone, that was tried on me, I just told my side of the story and gave you proof. When Hans and Jani start exposing personal e-mails, that will also be their business, not mine. The personal private stuff is a near mirror image of what I was forced to say in public.

I'm not self destructing in a public forum, I'm simply defending myself. The next move is for these guys is to start showing these e-mails that I wrote to them in private. This is their modus operandi, and what you will see is that everything that I have said fits together like a picture THEY TORE UP. I'm just afraid that the picture on the puzzle will reflect the picture I tried to keep private.

None of this should have been exposed. I just want the site in good hands and it is. I was responsible and will continue to be. The reason that this happened is the reason why I could not take it anymore and "sold out". Mistakes being made over and over, people not learning from them, including me.

It's not my business to make and sell forums although recently I have transfered ownership of a couple others I made in different communities. I work at a University, my position is stressful, I'm centering my time on my fiance' and my kids. I spend too much time online and the people who were helping me became part of the problem instead of the solution so I honored them with the offer of the responsibility to maintain the site. I did not force anyone to do anything.

If you can't figure it after reading this thread and thinking for yourself why I did what I did, you never will and it really doesn't matter, the site is in good hands, that's the bottom line.

Every day we are forced to make choices, I feel like I made good choices. Leave this alone, Hans and Jani have to look at themselves in the mirror each morning just like I do.

Have fun and take care.

Michael Stride
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Post by Michael Stride » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:34 pm

Jani, good to see you get passionate about something, losing your Swedish cool.
Fact is, you didnt LISTEN tothe UK racers about your warped points system. You didnt LISTEN to how it was unfair to Paul Price in PAris how you worked out his times with Chris Hart. You have to accept that you arnt always right, and that when we go to competitions we expect to be treated fairly. I Wont stand for threats from one of your representatives, and you should have some process in place to make sure he knows what he is talking about.
Fact is, PAul Price was going to be unfairly placed in Paris, then consequently get a lower ranking in your system. He's a sponsored rider....this is IMPORTANT to him, and to me as I could see you'd goofed, Keith Hollien could see you had goofed, and so could Bruce Brewington.
Only you couldnt admit it. As an organiser you have to be able to understand the ramifiactions of your system, and as a racer I believe you understood EXACTLY why we protested, but you did nothing to correct the mistake. Shame. I did not threaten your officiial, he offered to punch me. Great Jani, thats the kind of organisation you run, whether you like it or not.
Are you involved with Antibes?, if so, refund my flights and I wont go. Otherwise, just leave me alone, and keep your weird bearded oddball out of my face.
Michael Stride

Jani Soderhall
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:50 pm

adam trahan wrote:It's not my business to make and sell forums although recently I have transfered ownership of a couple others I made in different communities. I work at a University, my position is stressful, I'm centering my time on my fiance' and my kids. I spend too much time online and the people who were helping me became part of the problem instead of the solution so I honored them with the offer of the responsibility to maintain the site. I did not force anyone to do anything.
Adam,

Ahh, finally I get the picture. Thank's for supplying the missing piece. There were more than just a missed out name in the magazine. There were other forums, other things that kept you busy and concerned. OK, that's what we thought. In the end you just decided to let go of it all. With that said and understood maybe we can put the blaming aside?
I always considered you a friend and never understood why all of this really happened. This may explain it.

Did you just drop my administrator rights or was that Jack?
May I be informed of why? Tell me one single thing I've done wrong.


To the readers,

To those of you who want this forum to get on "as before". You're right, that's all I've been asking for. I've devoted many, many hours to make the site appear and appeal the way it does, because I believed this was the right way to do ti. That's why my questions were brought up in this thread. It was Adam that brought out the dirty laundry. I didn't. I didn't bring out any email conversations. Adam did. I just wanted to discuss the future of this site, not it's history. Unfortunately I've had no chance to reply to Jacks post, because there's constant blah-blah hindering the real discussion taking place.

Thank you.

/Jani

Jani Soderhall
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:05 pm

Michael Stride wrote:Fact is, you didnt LISTEN tothe UK racers about your warped points system.

You didnt LISTEN to how it was unfair to Paul Price in PAris how you worked out his times with Chris Hart. You have to accept that you arnt always right, and that when we go to competitions we expect to be treated fairly.

Fact is, PAul Price was going to be unfairly placed in Paris, then consequently get a lower ranking in your system. He's a sponsored rider....this is IMPORTANT to him, and to me as I could see you'd goofed, Keith Hollien could see you had goofed, and so could Bruce Brewington.
Only you couldnt admit it. As an organiser you have to be able to understand the ramifiactions of your system, and as a racer I believe you understood EXACTLY why we protested, but you did nothing to correct the mistake.
Michael Stride
Michael,

If I was still able to moderate this topic I'd move your accusations to a separate thread, but OK, let's continue this cocktail of everybody blames everybody. Readers will have to spend endless hours trying to sort out the bits and pieces, but at least it generates traffic to the site!


First off. I had no part in deciding the points system. Chris Linford was part of all early conversations as far as I know and had a chance to comment, as had Chicken and many others. It was only after the ranking went public that he started commenting. That's a bit too late for a revision of the first version.

Paris. I agree that there was a doubtful decision by the cone judge affecting Paul Price. A complaint was made and I allowed a re-run. Paul lost. That's fair isn't it. Could it have been done any other way?

THEN you came up with the idea that a re-run is actually a dual re-run, ie once in each course. That's when I decided that enough is enough. "Paul had a second chance. No, there will not be a third.

Maybe this was your understanding all along, but it wasn't mine. So as the race organizer I had to make a decision and I did.

...that's when you continued to argue and wouldn't let go.

/Jani

Rick Stanziale
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do you wanna go to that land?

Post by Rick Stanziale » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:21 pm

There's a famous story that is often heard to spew out of my mouth when reminiscing or intoxicated. It has to do with when I use to ride the bus to school in Elementary. No it's not about the time I pissed all over the floor of the bus and got everybodys book bags wet. It's about a poor little girl named "Abagale Flabagale". I can't remember that girl's real name, and it doesn't matter what her real name was, but that was the name everyone use to call her to make fun of her. When this happened she would curl up into a little ball and say "I'm going to turtle land. Everybody likes me in turtle land."

This made the other fellows on the bus laugh and punch this girl. They thought she was a stupid bitch and should go to turtle land and never come back by stapling her knees to her forehead so she would permanently be in that fetal position. But it seemed that staples weren't strong enough to keep her knees to her forehead and eventually they all gave up on that idea.

Then I made a song about Turtle Land. Everyone hated that song and said "this song is a piece of shit." That made me want to staple peoples knees to their foreheads.

Now, the update lies beyond:

Jimmy Hat [who can be seen in Mollica's La Costa video] was in psychology class today (August 13th) when his professor mentioned Turtle Land. His professor said that in the early 80's psychologists use to teach this as a defensive method to children.

I thought that was pretty cool, pretty cool.

So let's review what we have just learned:
You can not staple someone's knees to their forehead with a normal stapler
It is very fun to try and staple someone's knees to their forehead with a normal stapler
Turtle Land is a psychological tool for the weak
Turtle Land is a nice place for nice people.

In conclusion I would like to say that I do not approve of psychologist using Turtle Land as a trick. I am glad that they have stopped. I think Turtle Land is a really nice place and you should all go from time to time.

John Gilmour
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Re: Questions about SS.Com

Post by John Gilmour » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:46 pm

Why I bought this site...because I enjoy slalom skateboarding and want to see it continue to grow.

I think Jack really does want to see slalom grow as do many of us. His decision to make starter decks and really put more focus on starter decks that are affordable more than anything else proves his desire to increase the size of the sport- as opposed to developing solely a high tech/material/performance line with the associated bragging rights.


My purchase of the domain from Adam seems to have opened a big can of worms. All I wanted was for the site to continue promoting slalom.

I also think this is true. Jack was one of the people Adam approached in the launching of this site...so why should it be a surprise to anyone that he should be at the helm for a while?

- Is this a community site? Yes.

- Is this site owned by the community? All I own is the domain name and the site hosting service is in my name.

sounds like a "yes" to me.

- Who's property is the files stored on the server? The files are owned by the person who posted them.

- Why do community members pay the monthly fee, if someone owns the site in person? If I continue with the site I would not ask for members to pay the monthly fee. The August fees were already paid when I purchased the domain name. Thanks, Rick and also to those who paid the previous months fees.

IMHO I think the community should continue to cover the costs. I think it fosters "good will" amongst racers.

It spreads the ownership and makes us all more appreciative and mindful of the content. I don't think anyone should be solely burdened with the costs. Like a well run skateboard slalom contest- it is easier with help.


- Could this site be sold? Yes.
I think Adam T's original costs should be recouped, but after that IMHO slalomskateboarder.com probably should not be thought of as a saleable commodity, it represents the consciousness and concerns of our tiny slalom community worldwide.

- Why would a site like this need ads? It doesn't need them. As a slalom company owner, "Bahne", I would like to be able to advertise to this audience. Ok, start the howls of conflict of interest.

As Bahne has a significant focus on entry level gear it would seem appropriate for that gear to be made known to new slalomers. Slalomskateboarder.com has worked well without advertising however. It isn't my decision to make or anyone elses except Jack's. Certainly should Jack decide to turn over the helm after a while to someone else...Then I suppose it would be their call. I think people should take some time to discuss the pros and cons of advertising...I'm not so sure it should be a thing that is voted upon without a lot of discussion. There isn't a lot of hype in this site and for people looking for information- that is likely a good thing.

-Who gets the money? What for? I was thinking it could go to a fund that would be used to promote slalom at the grassroots level.
I wanted a few trunks of starter boards along witha timing system, cones, possibly some cheapo car amp and speakers + mic etc. to be shipped to schools to start a league of competition interscholastically. Recently I saw some of the flat die cut folding Kaliber cones (neat idea and they appear to work fine). Jack is looking at the grass roots level which I think is very cool for someone who ran the World Championships. Having some fund for this would be great. But again I don't think the money should come from this site. Perhaps a portion of entry fees in races- or a pledge site could be a part of it. Schools should be willing to pay some of the cost...or they won't appreciate our efforts.

The more I think about this, maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all.

Jani, your contributions to this site are immeasurable, you know the workings of it better than anyone. Maybe you are the person to administer the site, with input from the slalom community.

I will gladly sign over the domain name and hosting services at no cost to you or anyone else who is interested and technically qualified.
One good turn deserves another
john gilmour

Adam Trahan
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Post by Adam Trahan » Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:37 pm

Jani and Hans, yes you guys are friends, brothers of sorts. Friends fight, friends laugh, cry don't talk with each other blah blah blah and friends are good and family is too. The important thing here is that we are not seeing eye to eye, we have to agree to disagree. I held the trump card and it got passed on to Jack. I don't regret this.

I like the idea of the ISSA, that will never change.

I like the idea of the WRS, that will never change.

This site is missing many people, that should change.

I set up this site as I did and I would not change one single thing that has transpired up to and including this thread. What does not kill you only serves to make you stronger.

I'm not proud of this fight but it is reality.

Remember what I told you in [private] e-mail?

Jani and Hans: You should have just said, "Adam, thanks for your work, you did a good job, time to welcome Jack Smith." That's what you should have done and what you should still do. No one likes to have their nose rubbed in it like a dog who pooped in the house.

Michael is right, when you lost it, that was your absolute best post you made here, finally we see you as human. You know, you can learn from your mistakes, yes, you made some mistakes, so did I and so did Hans. Just help Jack, keep the idea going, don't alienate me from this site with this bullshit finger pointing. Please, I have experience with much larger online communities that have even more passion than this one, just trust me, the same person who you trusted before. I'm over my head to try to balance the situation, Jack can do what I can't.

The problem here is, it's like when you fight with your wife or girlfriend: "You can't UN-RING a bell." You say the words and then they bug you more than the person you pointed them at.

Stop this now, your Mom taught you: "It's not if you win or lose, it's how you play the game." Although this is not a game, it's the way you present yourself.

If you are apologizing, then I accept your apology, otherwise expect me to defend myself.

You guys are hard headed and thick skinned and I would not have it any other way. This is the kind of thing that you have to endure when you are an organizer or a angelic figure like Gilmour. He plays a little dirty pool too with his insertion of the F-1 guy who does not know what's going on here.

Chill out, this is going to work out. You just have to trust Jack.

Time to be brothers again.

p.s. Rick, Gilmour and I have turtles (tortoise), does that count?
Thanks for the diversion.
Psychology is strange no doubt.

John Gilmour
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Dirty pool? More like dirty hotub.

Post by John Gilmour » Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:42 pm

adam trahan wrote: snipped- He plays a little dirty pool too with his insertion of the F-1 guy who does not know what's going on here.
Actually I've taken a lot of advice from Raymond- so far it all seems to be good.

Hey Jack....how about that Slalom museum? Who is willing to help?
One good turn deserves another
john gilmour

Adam Trahan
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Post by Adam Trahan » Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:21 pm

I have a board that I shaped/glassed made from a blank of carbon foam that was given to me by Dimitriji Milovitch (inventor of the Snowsurfboard) in 1979. I sent it to Gareth to be finished (I introduced him to Dimitriji), he sent it to Rick Howell and I paid Rick Howell to finish it and it's pretty cool. I would be willing to donate it to this project.

Hans Koraeus
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:21 am

Adam Trahan wrote: Remember what I told you in [private] e-mail?

Jani and Hans: You should have just said, "Adam, thanks for your work, you did a good job, time to welcome Jack Smith." That's what you should have done and what you should still do. No one likes to have their nose rubbed in it like a dog who pooped in the house.
Adam, you brought up the private conversations not me. You put your private conversation on the forum. I did not. After you did so I have just commented my version. If it would do anyone any good I’m ok with putting all our e-mail conversation public. I have nothing to hide. Remember it was you telling me to stop responding to your e-mails.

It's hard to develop a conversation that way.
Adam Trahan wrote: don't alienate me from this site with this bullshit finger pointing.
If I remember correctly it was you saying you wanted out. Wanting no more of this. It was we who tried to convince you to stay on. If just only as the owner. Without any workload or responsibilities.
Adam Trahan wrote: Stop this now, your Mom taught you: "It's not if you win or lose, it's how you play the game." Although this is not a game, it's the way you present yourself.
I agree. I have no interest in the finger pointing. I don’t know what made us go that path. I don’t feel like I started it. I just wanted to talk about the future after the transfer was official.

What it all boils down to is that the ownership now has become a topic. It was not before when Adam had it. With the latest development it has. At least for me. We can’t turn back the clock. Even if Adam would take back the ownership or if he gave it to John, Jani or some formula 1 guy it still wouldn’t change anything anymore. The ownership has to be dealt with.
Adam Trahan wrote: This site is missing many people, that should change.
I agree. That is our goal. But we can’t force people coming here. It must be worth coming here. For this we need as many persons as possible giving time, energy and doing interesting topics here. In my view the best thing for this is to create a neutral ownership base. As good as it can be.

I would like to see a certain number of people spread around the globe sharing the ownership. Why not according to the World ranking regions…

South America: 1 person
USA West: 3 persons
USA East: 2 persons
Canada: 1 person
Europe: 4 persons
Russia: 1 person
Asia: 1 person
Australia: 1 person

Start a “legal unit” containing these selected persons. Make the “legal unit” stand for the ownership. Select the members every year. Make them the “board” of “slalomskateboarder.com”. Majority of votes from the board to grant any major changes to the site.

Look there. A “United Regions of Slalom Skateboarding”. :-)

Sorry, just playing around…

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:25 am

I wish this site had the voting function like that other site so that I could give Rick a "best of" vote. That was some classic stuff, man. The rest of you are really kooking out and need to chill!

Thanks Adam. Thanks Jack. Let's carry on.

-Slim

Michael Stride
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Post by Michael Stride » Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:15 pm

Thanks jani.
Fact is you UNILATERALLY decided that it was not a dual re-run. As Chris Hart had DQ'd in his FIRST run, all Paul needed to do was beat him. He did this, on the re-run, by being within the 1.5 second DQ default time, running clean....only to find that it was on times. You did not tell Paul his true position, or what he needed to do to win. He thought he had to just be clean. And he was wrong, becuase your decision was not expalined to him. He was skating blind.
You were unble to understand this, your official accused us of always complaining.
Not all comps run smoothly, but in this case I beleive you wernt able, under pressure to be able to understand why we complained.
Think about it again, and when you realise that we spotted the error, in good time, that Paul was unfairly dis-advantaged by an inexpeienced cone judge.

Steve Michael
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Post by Steve Michael » Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:15 pm

I'll take 66's psychology one step further (got the degree to prove it, too).

A bunch of kids got together one day, and it was discovered that at one time, they all had played...and loved...the same ball game! For some of them it had been a long while since they last played ball, and some of them had never really stopped. These former and current ball players came from all over the world, and were united in promoting and enjoying their sport.

One of those kids brought a new ball to the group one day, and they began to have lots of fun with it! The new ball made it easier for all of the kids to play more often, and it also had the effect of bringing other kids into the game. There was also another group of kids playing with another ball, and sometimes some of the kids in one group didn't get along with the other group. However, EVERYONE in BOTH groups LOVED to play ball, and each group worked to promote their sport.

Well, after about two years, the kid who bought the ball, and had shared it with all of the kids, decided to go home. Rather than take his ball with him, he sold it to "the new kid"...who, it turns out, is one of the BIGGEST proponents of the sport, and a great guy to boot.

Most of the rest of the kids thought this was cool...but a few of them thought differently. "Why did he sell the ball?" they asked. "Is this going to change our game?" "What about all the work I've done during the game?" These kids felt slighted, and wanted the ball to belong to "everyone" instead of just the new kid.

The new kid shows up the first day, and all he gets from these few kids is "Hey, new kid...This is OUR game, and you better let us have a share of the ownership of that ball!" The new kid doesn't want to offend these other kids, but the ball is now his. Why do these few kids want so much to "own" the ball? Isn't it enough that the new kid is willing to bring the ball to the other kids so that they all can play?

The kid who originally bought the ball, the New kid he sold it to, and the rest of the kids are comfortable with the fact that although a different kid now owns the ball, that their game will continue to grow and prosper. Even some of the kids playing with the other ball will come around to the other group, as the New Kid is active and respected in both groups.

Now, if those other kids would just accept that a new kid owns the ball, we can all get to playing the game we all love.

-=S=-

Adam Trahan
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Post by Adam Trahan » Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:37 am

Jani and Hans,

I don't have anything more to add.

I hope you guys work this out.

I'm thankful to everyone for the accolades, I'm sorry that you guys aren't happy, everyone deserves to be happy.

adam

Hans Koraeus
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:11 am

Good story Steve. I like it.

The question is who makes the rules we are playing with? The guy owning the ball or the guys playing ball?
And when the guy owning the ball in his turn wants to sell the ball. Who will he sell to? Some of the guys playing ball or to the angry man living next door to the playground that just hate the noise we make.

Of course the guys could just buy themselves a new ball. But they rather like the ball they have played with and want to be sure they can continue playing with it in the future.

As I have said before. For the guys who just comes along to play and then goes home after the game it’s not a big deal. But for those who take care of the ball before and after the game to make sure it is good shape for the next time the guys come to play again it’s different. Their work also has a value. As long as the ball has no value (in money) they are glad to work for free. If the ball is a trading object to make money… Should the owner of the ball then pay them for their work? If so it makes logic that he can sell it and in his turn make money. If not it makes logic that the ball is not for sale.

Ask the English football federation what they pay Sven-Göran Eriksson per year. And I don’t think he even cleans up the balls at all. Even though his former secretary seems to disagree. But then again, it may be a different ball game.

Hans Koraeus
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:36 am

Adam,

If you have finished your job and you are happy then you have won.

I still have in view trying to continue my work here and being happy by doing so. Let's see if we can work things out. If I can't manage being happy here I hope I can finish too and find happiness elsewhere.

This topic was not meant to turn into a blame game. It was just the perfect time to take this ownership discussion. Sit back and relax. It's all in Jack's hands now. I wonder if he realizes what work he has taken on. He seems to be a busy man.

Jack Smith
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Stories

Post by Jack Smith » Sun Aug 15, 2004 5:02 am

Friends, we're all grown men and women here, no need to cloak what you're thinking or feeling in stories. Though I did enjoy them.

As I have stated before, I just want this site to continue doing the good work it has done. I didn't buy it to make money. I have other websites that do that.

If a group of you wants to own and administer this site, just say so.

Until that happens, I do hope to continue working with everyone who has been prebiously involved with ss.com.

Jack

Steve Michael
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Post by Steve Michael » Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:27 am

Hans...you just don't get it.

It's still the same freakin' ball. If the rules change, DEAL WITH IT.

Who makes the rules? Well, there are currently a pretty good set of rules now in place. Jack knows that, and as he's so aptly stated, he'll continue with those for now. He (and I) also value what both you and Jani have brought to the game. But you had to have done so knowing that this thing doesn't run itself for free.

...and the Game (in this case, Slalom Skateboarding) will grow and prosper, regardless of who owns the ball.

Another analogy would be that of the community garden. The Mayor of the City proclaims that a small parcel will be used for the good of the citizens. Some folks work very hard, some just visit...but in time, it's a great garden.

When a new Mayor comes along, if he or she is attentive, then they'll do their best to continue what was built. But the new Mayor, in the end, still has the last word as to what happens to that little parcel.

Give the new Mayor a chance to breathe and get his feet wet before you hit him with the "What will happen to our garden?" stuff.

Or if you don't like it...run for Mayor. Jack has left the door open.

...but don't be surprised to find that some folks will move out of the city if that happens. I'm stayin' regardless. Jack has the ability to bring together the entire community. Give him a chance and quit worrying about it.

I'm done with this now. Sorry for all of the analogies and metaphors. If you enjoyed them...thanks.

-=S=-

GOD SAVE THE MAYOR!

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:43 am

Perhaps the new mayor can institute a ban on member profile photos taken from the ass side!(bravo to Rick for showing some style, and Jack and John at least have a bit of the front angle, but a lot of y'all could ask your photographer to stand on the other side, ha!).

Jani Soderhall
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Sun Aug 15, 2004 7:27 pm

Jack Smith wrote:If a group of you wants to own and administer this site, just say so.
Jack,

That's the kind of idea I wanted to discuss with my questions, but apparently very few cared. They all seem to believe it's a for or against you discussion. It's not. It's not for or against the ISSA either. And Michael Stride, it's not even a for or against Jani topic. Your acting just shows your poor taste of always throwing more fuel on a fire.


To me the main thing is that no single person should be allowed to damage the site or it's future and feel he has "the right" to do so. Probably a shared ownership (shares?) would have been good for the community in other ways. Most people like the site the way it is and it would be good for it to evolve. Like things do when you change mayor.
The difference here is that in a democracy mayors are elected...


The site will certainly be in good hands with you Jack, but I don't regret discussing this topic at a time, when after the owner transfer, we actually had no way of knowing what direction this site was heading. You've answered that in part now and I wish you good luck steering this boat.

I'm off for a while. I'm no longer sure what role I have or want. Maybe I should work less for the site, worry less about it's maintenance and just enjoy the occasional visit. Like 99.5% of you. I'll check in occasionally though.

Today my administrator rights are back again (cookie thing or intentional?). If I'm not supposed to be part of the administrator clan, let me know and drop my rights.

See y'all later!

/Jani

Steve Michael
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Post by Steve Michael » Sun Aug 15, 2004 7:44 pm

Rich Stephens wrote:... but a lot of y'all could ask your photographer to stand on the other side, ha!
<--- You mean THIS fat butt?

Yeah, Rich. You can be my photographer next time. But I'm not switching to goofy foot for slalom...sorry.

I get tired of reminding folks I'm wearing hip pads. I'm 40, but not nearly that ass-lumpy.

-=S=-

Glenn S
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Post by Glenn S » Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:12 am

I say right-on Jack Smith!!!!

I’d just like to see a continuation of “world slalom” and “grassroots slalom” as a big motive behind the site.

And Jani is a level headed guy with a want for good things in the sport of slalom racing. How many really take the organizational responsibility that he has, and puts the effort out as he has to organize the sport on a global level and bring it to the racers in a printed version! Please let him be a big part of the site by never stripping him of his moderator rights as had been done recently (not by you Jack I'm sure). He did not deserve that.

Lead on Jack!

"Without deviation, progress is not possible" Frank Zappa

Hans Koraeus
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:21 am

Steve Michael wrote:Hans...you just don't get it.

It's still the same freakin' ball. If the rules change, DEAL WITH IT.
I'm dealing with it all I can. I thought that this was a community site owned and maintained by the users. No commercial site, all work for free and a site that could not be sold or bought. With the latest happening I think the rules changed.

If so I got it. Since Jack is willing to offer the site to a group he seems to have got it. Get it?

I don't know how the ownership works. Can only one person or registered legal group stand as owner? Or can the owner of this site be multiple persons? A registered legal group is probably the best anyway. Otherwise the ownership has to be changed each time someone wants out and another takes the place. With a legal group the group can be owner whatever persons comes and goes in that group. The only negative with such a solution is that someone has to create just such a registered legal group. I can see a couple of people who could start as initial members and draw up the lines.

Adam: As the inventor of the site. But for logical reasons he won't be interested I guess.
Jani: Knows probably the workings of this site the best.
John: For his longstanding comittment to this site.
Jack: For his longstanding comittment to slalom skateboarding.

So that gives us...

Jani, John and Jack. Doesn't that ring well.

With these three owners I would feel satisfied and hopeful for the future adventures of "SlalomSkateboarder.com". Is this a possible solution?

Why select one Mayor when you can select three?

Dave Gale
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Post by Dave Gale » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:49 pm

Adam,
I, in no way intened the phrase "selling out" in the negative aspect that you took it! I applaude this site and know Jack will do what's right for the community!!
Off to work I go!
ENJOY!! (while you can)

Adam Trahan
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Post by Adam Trahan » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:43 pm

Dave: No worries, thanks for the clarification.

Jack, Jani, Hans, John et al:

Jack owns the site, it is not mine and I have made no plans to just go away. If you find my opinion valid and you want to consider my advice, I am more than willing to continue to give it. Moving forward, it will mesh with what I have said in the past and will reflect consistancy.

The capacity that I am able to spend time here must be reduced though and I can't go through any more dragging through the mud as what happened in the past.

I have an idea about the "ins and outs" of what you guys are moving towards. This is the natural evolution and again, I have experience here that may be valuable. It is easy to understand and I can give examples of the success.

Gilmour did not tell me about the F-1 guy and I do not regret my choice nor the explination of why or anything else. People have to say what they have to say, just don't ring a bell... I don't think ONE guy is the ultimate answer though.

At another site that has progressed and is older and much larger than this one, we have a core that had a stupid little acronym that took. (BIGCaT: Brooks, Ivan, Gerard, Chef, adam, Ted) Each one of us had a role to play in the making of the site. Each one of us had experience in a different aspect, all of us together made a pretty good core of ethics. It is an international fly fishing community. Each one of us balancing each other out. It's a fly fishing community and all of us (BIGCaT) have some sort of surf background, it's funny too as fly fishing is quite older than skateboarding (goes centuries back) and you have us surfers now at the core of this (we also live around the world with varying backgrounds) and we are definately a VERY strong group, it seems to work. I own this site but I am not the "owner". I set it up but it is not mine, it is truly the communities. I am a sponsored fly angler, I get equipment discounts and set up the rest of the guys with this or they do the same. The site has to be fun and we have rewards that keep us going. We have a sharp view of the "industry" and speak what we think, never mind the commercial media view. But the "commerce" of the site is quite small and does not overwhelm the feel of the community.

I don't have any more secrets, I'm quite open with my thinking, this seems to be the best thing for me because then people will see that I am human and trust me.

The smarmyskateboarder thing only reflects on Adam Nathanson, ultimately, people step in his mistakes and that is too bad. The "flack" that goes on over there happens here too, just a whole lot less.

If you want to hear more, then I will go on but Jack owns the site, it is not mine and if you want my opinion, that is all it will be, Jack is the one to make things so, he owns the site, someone has too...

adam

p.s. ...not saying that the "core" here has to be comercial, just some thoughts.

Cool story below Chris.
Last edited by Adam Trahan on Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Christopher Bara
KILL CITY RACING
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Post by Christopher Bara » Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:21 pm

Hey 66 and Steve AZ....I love all those brutal kids stories and how they relate to modern day quarrels
Here's another:
When i was a kid in middle school, i WAS that little kid...kinda shy and got picked on by the big "tough guys".
In fact, there were two of them that would get off my bus stop with me, even though it wasnt their stop, and either chase me home or kick my ass on the spot. The bus driver never did a thing and i never told my folks
That's when i was about 12 or 13....i went to a different school for other reasons the next year
Time passed, but i never forgot those kids
i'm not too small anymore ......
When i was about 30, i saw one of them at a carnival near my old neighborhood and as i walked by him i threw him a shoulder.
He turned around and gave me some lip, but he wasnt bigger than me anymore...

And i kicked his ass so bad he couldnt stand up.

The best part?...i'm 99.9% sure he didnt know who i was or that i was that kid he picked on almost 20 years before....or knew why he just got his ass beat..... But i remembered..

How is this relevent to this thread?.....

it's not, it's just another unrelated post.....like most of the other ones left here by folks outside of the ones this issue relates to.

but i still like the old stories .......
(i think it'd be better yet if that girl in the turtle position smokes one of the bullies one day)

I still have some pent up aggressions....

Hans Koraeus
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:13 am

Ahh, good old Adam is back. I can feel that the tensions are gone. Great.

Adam,

About this fly fishing community site. How did you solve the ownership? Was it registered on one of you Bigcats's or on all of you? Or some other solution? You make it very clear, we can't be the only "community" going through this ownership thing.

Time out for some research...

Adam Trahan
Phoenix, AZ, USA
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Post by Adam Trahan » Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:15 am

Hans,

Please remember, this is Jacks site.

What I say forward is just my personal feelings, that's it.

www.smallstreams.com is the site, it's huge. Like 30-50 people online at all times reading so many stories. It started out as my home page and people gravitated to it because we worked together on it and shared the love of fishing. But fishing is subjective and organizing racers should be objective.

So this group of us get's formed, each of us has a lean on a certain aspect. I am the wierdo skate/surf/soaring pilot, there is a lawyer in South Africa, a philosopher/photographer in Montana, a software guru, a world class Chef, a Australian Day Trader... We congealed much as Jack, Jani, Hans, Glenn, John et al and I did here. I "gave" them their space and they ran with it. Gerard took South Africa and ran with it. He got a job as a Editor for a South African Fly Fishing magazine from being found at the site. Many others used our site (it's a place where we publish stories in the vernacular instead of magazine article style) to launch writing careers. What I am getting at is that it all fell into place. Chef named "us" and we moved forward with this. The community accepted us because we made this cool spot to go and share.

I can't name us because I was over my head here. I LOVE SLALOM! The hermit thing that Gilmour talked about is what got this site on the map. I had the skills to put together the forum and I knew what I was talking about and had no problem fighting the good fight because the good fight fights itself. You can have just one person saying the right thing and a hundred people saying "F-you" and the right thing still slays the wrong thing.

John talked about admiting mistakes in another thread and I could not agree with him more. You get out there, say what you have to say as intelligent as you can say it and if you make a mistake, admit it, don't forget it and move on.

So you have one guy own it and the others who make the core of the group do what they do best. The rest of the group should "balance" out the "too far out on a limb" aspects. Ideas are usually born of thinking outside of the box. Jack touched on some of my ideas that I spoke of for the fund for small groups to apply for as a scholarship. Funds for timing systems or for a reporter to go and cover a race. I'm totally streached for funds, I've begged Jack a couple of times to cover me for a race and he did. I just don't have the funds...

I'm rambling.

There is no planned thing. This group just evolves and there is only one owner. If the owner wants out, he puts it up to the other guys to buy him out as I did. I did not want out like you think I wanted out. I wanted less responsibility because I am over my head with trying to balance you guys. I can't do it by myself and when you forgot about me in Slalom! and even Adam Nathanson was in there, it made me realize that I had too much invested in time, money and heart to spend any more time with this. Perhaps the way I left was not optimal to you but it is honorable to the sport and Jack won't forget anyone good or bad. That's what we lack, balance, we have it now.

All of this is subjective. You have to have some vision and more importantly, experience helps. Lightning does strike twice in the same place, it's not random, it does it for a reason.

If Jack asks for my help, I will help him. I like to think that I have been fair, even Arab himself said that I was fair but I am not in charge.

I NEVER hated you or Jani, just the opposite, you guys rock but I am unable to balance you, I don't have the time or energy.

All the best and let me know specifics of what you want.

adam

Hans Koraeus
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:11 am

Please remember, this is Jacks site.
You know Adam, during the time you where the owner of the site I never fealt it was Adams site. I saw it as the international slalom communities site. This was what gave me all my energy and motivation. Maybe I was living in an illusion but that doesn't matter as long as you feel it's the truth. Goes for life in general I guess. Even though nothing may have changed on this site since the transfer my old illusion is gone. And I don't want to see this as Jack's site. This is not against Jack personally. I don't want to see this site as Jani's site either. I would like to build up a new framework for getting back that old illusion again. Something that gives me the same energy and motivation as before.

Even if I turn to you (maybe by habit) that shouldn't be taken as I see you as anyone above any other normal user of this site. Our conversation is public and therefor indirect to everyone. Everyone's ideas on the subject are welcome.

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:30 am

Well, since you asked for other input, here's mine (as a nobody): we've heard your "concerns" several times now, but your plea for a grassroots rebellion against the concept of Jack "owning" the site is obviously not gaining any support. None of the rest of the users seem to be even the least bit concerned or worried about letting Jack do whatever he wants with the site, because we are well familiar with how the things Jack does always turn out to benefit others more than they benefit him personally. So...It's time for you to either just play along and see how things turn out (I think you will like it) or if you just can't let the issue go, you are free to go start your own "community" website.

Hans Koraeus
Corky - World Ranking Master Mind
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:00 pm

Rich, you're not a nobody. Your opinion counts as much as anyone elses. I don't plea for a grassroots rebellion. This is not an urgent matter for the masses. I just happen to feel very strongly for this site and what it stood for. Hopefully it still does and always will. I do agree that it is time for me to let go though. My concerns have been noted and that is all I ask for.

P.S. I thought you all liked this soap opera... ;-)

alavoine jean paul
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Re: slalom is alive and well

Post by alavoine jean paul » Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:41 pm

John Gilmour wrote: Raymond is a noble guy, who always tries to do what is right. .
and so am I, though I like the idea of grassroots rebellions, once in a while.
jean paul aka POPOL:
"I was born yesterday...
but I stayed up all night!"

Andy Bittner
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Post by Andy Bittner » Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:35 am

Y'know... I've been watching this topic since the beginning, and would like to offer the following observations on the whole episode from the beginning until now.

1. The site hasn't changed a bit. To anyone who hasn't been watching this topic, the transfer in site ownership is a total non-issue. That means something. We should all take note of the fact.

2. As one of the few, true, 30+ year slalomers (not 30+ year old... 30+ years of largely uninterrupted slalom skateboarding!) , I have complete respect for the people posting here, particularly those who I've known, or known of, for years.

3. Corky has been decrying the destruction of his own misunderstanding all along. I offer the following...
You know Adam, during the time you where the owner of the site I never fealt it was Adams site.
and yet, Corky, it was.
I saw it as the international slalom communities site.
Why stop now? It was a misunderstanding before, and reality seems to dissapoint you. So, since it hasn't changed and since only you, Corky, are ultimately accountable for how you see things, feel free to keep seeing it exactly as you have. I see it much the same way, even though I've always known Adam owned it.
This was what gave me all my energy and motivation.
With all sincerity I say, I'd hate to see you lose all your energy and motivation. Corky, as that post continues it's clear you know what I'm talking about, so maybe you'll take this correctly and in the spirit intended, when I say I wish you were one of the people who hasn't even looked at this topic. If your considerable energy and motivation were based on a misunderstanding, and the reality of the situation drains your enthusiasm, I really wish you were still misunderstanding.

4. Adam, good move. I understand. Thanks for your thoughtfulness.

5. Jack, have fun.

6. Jani, You're a hero to the lifelong proponents of this sport; for Slalom!, for the ISSA, and for your continued dedication and effort here and elsewhere. I hope this change doesn't alienate you from this particular community, where you are a treasured commodity.

7. Michael, Despite your differences with Jani, and all the old, occasionally visible, bad blood between the continent and the island, you too are a treasured commodity in this community.

8. DaveG, do you even OWN any shoes?

Adam Trahan
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Post by Adam Trahan » Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:37 pm

Bittner, you have no idea how close I came to getting in contact with you. I have one confidant that is outside of Jack, John, Jani and Hans and I did talk to him about you as a choice. You were next in line Andy, this is my word.

We would have had this long drawn out process of figuring out how to vote, there are some people here who have a couple of accounts, I can't prove it but this is my intuition. I would have NOT been able to see the vote online as valid, it would have had to be on paper...

When the issue of Slalom! came out and then I looked inward, my own introspection forced me to change direction and NOT follow what I had set up, it would not have been a good choice for the community because it is not all yet in attendance. I hope this changes and I feel that Jack was the best choice.

Last night I flew my "gold watch" and I can tell ALL OF YOU that I am so happy to have it. Jack bought it for me but I feel like it is from all of you. I will take this kite and "free my mind" with it. It is a great equalizer, a diversion for the sadness that is in this thread.

Perhaps we will see one of Olson's poems here, that is my indicator...

Thanks for your words Andy, you know what you are talking about and I know you will stand up for what you believe in. I am proud to know you.

Dave Gale
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Post by Dave Gale » Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:12 pm

GBJ AKA Bittner...
HEY!!!!!!!!!!!!! I gots lottsa shoes!!! I just save 'em for special casions! I took the day to watch my boyz Parsons and Taylor in the whitewater world of slalom!!
ENJOY!! (while you can)

Michael Stride
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Post by Michael Stride » Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:32 am

I always thought this was Jani's site. after all he seemed to never post on the other one. For whatever reason, I just percieved it being because he wanted his own platform, rather than have to be shouted down by passionate skaters.

My own view is that this format of discussion (phpBB) forums tend to appeal to computer geeks, there is a similar skate one in the UK, and their survey is showing 70% of them work in IT.

Now hear me out....I mean this seriously....I do honestly believe that the structure of these forums appeal to the minds that think perhaps more structured and logically, and these tend to be the IT people...

I find these forums frustrating, but see the need for a different, perhaps more serious, discussion forum as is found here.

The other site conveys the pasion, the characters, and even the style of slalom better, this place looks and feels clinical and cold. It looks like every other geek ridden web forum, and skaters arnt generally like that. We are more creative.

I hope jani and hans, and their supporters can find a place to feel at home to discuss slalom. I know a telephone box that might be free most evenings.

Brady Mitchell
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Post by Brady Mitchell » Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:23 am

Jack,
I wish you the best in this endevour. You are exactly what this site needs.

Adam,
Man, you REALLY need to GO FLY A KITE! heh heh!! Speaking of which, I watched my brother flying his PPG into the water last weekend. Seems he caught a rotor off some palm tress as he was landing and while trying to abort the landing and punch it out over the beach again, one side of his wing collapsed and SPLOOSH!. He`s alright. Nothing like sending the motor to the shop to be disassembled and rebuilt. Also cleaning the sand and salt out of the paraglider wing. He`s currently down in Peru soaring and surfing.

Me, I keep my feets on the ground ,or on a skateboard (wit shoes mind you DaveG).

I tend to aggre with GBJ, I always saw this site as being owned by Adam and also being a worlwide slalom skating specific site in general.

And I also agree with Michael Stride, this place is difficult to navigate. The best way is with that Bastard 66`s search option ( * ) heh heh!! That way you at least get to see the latest posts. Maybe this site should move closer along the lines of ncdsa.

And Adam, I didn`t know you were part of smallstreams? Man, I was on that site before I found my way to ncdsa, and then here. I`ve been fishing longer than skating and as a hobby collect old lures.

And in closing, in line with more dribble from me, and along the lines of the bully stories, I was the runt in the family and learned to pick up something quick. One time my brother stuck some dog shit on my back and ran off. I reached over and grabbed a broken badmitten racket and flung it at him. Well, it stuck right in his back. He was wailing so loud my dad came out. After sorting things out, dad beat the crap out of us both.

Guess what, my brother never bothered me again and I learned I don`t have to take crap from anyone,,,literally!!!
Got ants?

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