war woes

Off Topic Subjects
Post Reply
Brady Mitchell
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Hollywood Hills, Florida

Post by Brady Mitchell » Thu Mar 20, 2003 6:33 am

There was some posts on AdamN`s site related to the new gulf war and they were removed. I have no greiviance with Adam on that as some of the posts were in my opinion, very thoughtless and lacked tact.

I am opening up this new thread not because I want to drag that controversu over here but rather take advantage of what this forum offers.

We are entering some difficilt times here and I feel there needs to be a place where we skaters can express our feeling on this and get if off our chest.

I, myself, have not decided whether our (US) action is right or wrong but having lost my closest family member in Viet Nam, the thought of our troops casualties loss stirs up some tuff emotions.

And as a skater, I know of no where else that I can express, explore, and work through these new emotions.

It may be a can of worms I opened but I think some positive may come from this if we think, then post, and share our unique perspective (and before anyone points it out, wheres the skate terrain over there that needs shreddinf)...LOL

Regards, me

Chris Eggers
Germany
Germany
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Chris Eggers » Thu Mar 20, 2003 12:21 pm

Brady,

I thought about this too, but never quite got the push to do it, so thanks for opening this thread.
As you probaly know our government and most of the german people are against this war. Personaly I am against every kind of violence. Any kind. I do not think a war is a solution in any way but will bring along more problems instead of solving them.
I am sure Saddam Hussein is a dangerous person and should be removed, but not because he is a danger to the whole world ( I believe he is only a danger to those who have reason to fear at all) but because he is a dictator and he is not doing what a leader of a country should do: look after and do the best for his country and his people and not try to gather as much money and power as possible.
I personaly think that the president of the United States is also not doing this at the moment.
Personaly I will not visit the US this year, even if slalom racing and skateboarding has absolutely nothing to do with this war.
Please remember, it is just my personal thoughts. I talked to a lot of Americans when I visited in October and I had the feeling that no one wanted this war.
I hope for peace and feel sorry for all the people directly involved in this be it Irak or US people.

Peace, chris

Just one thing that always comes to my mind as a skater/snowboarder whenever I see pictures of Irak or Afghanistan on TV or wherever: Afghanistan seems to have great mountains, I always see white ridgetops next to deserts, reminding me of Utah. Maybe they have the same great dry powder snow over there and someday we can enjoy it all. Maybe. Peace again.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chris Eggers on 2003-03-20 06:27 ]</font>

Leonardo Ojeda
Venezuelan Racer
Venezuelan Racer
Posts: 286
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Stamford, CT and Venezuela in the heart
Contact:

Post by Leonardo Ojeda » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:31 pm

I just posted a question at the other site about the war, maybe it will be removed.

Iam also against ANY war, now that my country its livig his worst moments in the history and thinking that anytime the possibilty of a civil war its always present, i uderstand a lot about it.

If saddam its in fact a dicator, i think there are a lot of others way thatcan take him out. also why the US, dont do the same with Fidel Castro, or the new hiddend dictator: Hugo Chavez?

so, i strongly belive that this war its based more on revenge, hate and oil reasons, than those the US gov states.

I know i am writing on a US website and u probably dont agree with me, but its my personal oppinion from the outside

Leo
"I`ll see you at the end of the hill"

Adam Trahan
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Adam Trahan » Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:08 pm

One day all of you will wake up and determine that your posted content at http://www.ncdsa.com is directed in an arbitrary mannor. The http://www.ncdsa.com webmaster and the moderators are "trimming" your input into the site to be "sold" as "a popular forum" for advertisement space. Your opinion sometimes get's in the way of what the webmaster wants to see at his business site.

It's quite tragic that all of you let this happen to your words, but then again, your words there are disposable and it of course, your choice to go where you please and post your words.

Anyway...

Brady, the "controversy" over here is not a controversy, it is simply the people's input. You will have your words attached to your name, we set it up this way. Remember, this is an INTERNATIONAL forum and there are others in this global community that may not agree with you or me.

Now what I am about to post here is NOT the views of this site, it is my personal view.

From http://www.kiteforum.com which I am a member, I posted a perfect example of my own personal belief. I am also a kite surfer and I make another forum http://www.foilpilot.com

I will not EDIT your opinion, I don't want my opinion edited.

Link to the kiteforum.com thread

Link to text version of USA President's speach on March 17, 2003 in regards to Saddam Hussein Must Leave Iraq Within 48 Hours

The United States and other nations did nothing to deserve or invite this threat. But we will do everything to defeat it. Instead of drifting along toward tragedy, we will set a course toward safety. Before the day of horror can come, before it is too late to act, this danger will be removed.
Can everyone really be thinking about who did what and then formulating their own opinion on this difficult topic at this kitesurfing forum?

The USA will take down a regime based on it's history. Saddam Hussein threatens global security (PEACE) as well as the securities of it's own people.

Is this true?
Is this common knowledge?
Is it a good choice to let a country do as it pleases when it harbors and promotes terrorist organizations? When it pays and promotes suicide bombers?

Somebody is going to get pissed when a World Super Power is going to war for Peace, no shit.


Sound your opinion, stand up for who you support, stand behind your name. Let's see what choice you make and if you can live with your choice.

I think that all this time since the last war in 1991 with Iraq was enough time to disarm. I think the inteligence that has been gathered is enough to warrant the USA's actions, especially since the Terrorist Attack on America on Sept 11. The USA is taking action based on choices made by a regime that does not respect free will or life in general even within the borders of it's own country, Iraq.

Yes, "NO WAR" sounds cool and yes "WAR IS HELL." I understand this. But this is not a "cool thing" to let a nation harbor Terrorists and to fund them. Again, it's about choices.

We are all a product of our choices.

I understand the actions of a leader in a powerful country that kills his own people, polutes the environment to defy power, is willing to destroy his own country to defend his own honor, kills others that have differing opinions in government forums, pays for organizations to kill other people, harbors terrorists, and does not respect the direction of the United Nations in regards to disarming, etc.

Maybe this is not enough for you to understand why our country is going to act.

Do you need more reasons to understand why the USA is going to remove this regime?

Did you make a choice to be cool, a choice that only views today or one that is good for ALL people except the regime in question?

I did not vote for our current President, but I do think he is doing a job that is difficult and he is making good choices. I do think our Armed Forces are behind the USA President and as an American, I stand proud to support our Troops and our Presidents decisions, difficult decisions, real world threatening decisions aimed at making the world a safer place.

Please investigate the matter and come to your conclusion and make your choice on your own.

I also know in our country, it is alright to speak your own opinion and that my friends is why Americans are outspoken.

Choose your words wisely or spew them out and eat them latter, matters not in our country, they are just words.

I like this web site, I like coming here to read kiters stuff and I have my own opinion as well.

I say drink some coffee and wake up to who did what.

Best Regards to you all, most importanly, may you have peace in your choice.

Image

Me in Korea in 1985.

I, like many American Veterans of now and then would have given my life in war defending America or liberating oppressed people so you or they can have freedom from oppression.

John Gilmour
Team Roe Racing
Team Roe Racing
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am
Location: USA

Post by John Gilmour » Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:33 pm

Realistically this war has become somewhat a propaganda circus. We see newsmen interviewing other news people and not participants- how biased is that? Americans live in a country where the media is controlled by a few people who own huge numbers of media outlets. Of course we get a biased viewpoint. Why would the Gov't want such concentration in the hands of the few? Perhaps easier to manage.

I look at some of the footage in Iraq - the night footage- and it strikes me as strange that some of hte footage is so dark- when we know hte media outlets knew a lot of the war would be fought at night. They have teh "low lux" cameras technology to shoot in these conditions but choose not too.

In America we see people getting harrassed for speaking their views. Is this a change over from democracy? Thoughts of widespread censorship and nationalism seem to creep in here.

But this has been going on for a while- though more in terms of censoring the media.

At one point I had a job with a company called VMS (Video monitoring service). The company monitored ALL radio and Television broadcasts throught the USA nad kept tabs on what was said and seen in all the media markets. Often we sold stories back to Fortune 500 companies to pay for our service (Ie let's say Texaco is mentioned on several news outlets in stories about high gas prices- texaco buys the story and then might pull advertising from those networks or ask that the networks be fair and show other companies as well).

So when the OJ trial came along.....it dominated the news front....we had nothing to sell. The company almost went under. You can be sure when Monicagate came along it was nearly the same thing.

Politicians would pay us to see which soundbites were being used where. John Silber Gubenatorial candidate for Massachusettes was a big client as was Senator John Kerry in the most expensive Senate race ever against Rappaport.

But I quit one day.

We were told to look for a story mentioning John Poindexter, Secord and Oliver North. Often when stories break in the media they break first in radio markets as no video production is involved. They break first in small towns where there is no local news or regional news to speak of. They break in the morning or early afternoon - are repeated constantly and get more in depth and spread to other small towns. Then the story is picked up by the Major TV + radio stations in the major media markets of NYC, Chicago, LA etc. They air typicallly in an East to West Fashion due to time zones- the West Coast often getting the most screened media.

The story line was this. Oliver North, Poindexter and Secord were indictied for drug trafficing in Nicaragua and were to be arrested should they ever step foot in that country again.

The story broke in New Hampshire and a small town in upstate New York. At about 10:30 am. It was snuffed in minutes and never repeated. Never repeated- no small feat for such a big story.

I resigned the following day in disgust.

VMS has expanded and is doing well.

We only see what they want us to see- perhaps a few people in small towns hear a few scattered bits of controversial reality
we just get filtered media.

Matthew Wilson
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Lone Tree, CO
Contact:

Post by Matthew Wilson » Fri Mar 21, 2003 9:31 pm

JG--

I agree with your general theme--if I am getting it right. The premise behind the war in Iraq is overshadowed by a systemt that feeds the story through filters in order to boost viewer senses. I hate this. I am all for taking out Saddam. I am all for liberating Iraq from a regime that is so oppressive, and I am behind our president's agenda--so far.
But what is driving me bonkers is the media. This war has become a cinematic display, some miniseries. I'm sorry, but when I watch the news, I want to hear FACTUAL news, not see pictures of bombs being dropped, and the ground passing as the camera man points his camera at the ground while riding on a tank.
Our media has taken the focus off of the purpose of this war, and put it on the demonstration of war.
This is not a TV show, American and civilian lives are at stake.

Chris Eggers
Germany
Germany
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Chris Eggers » Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:21 pm

I just want to a ad one more thing that is on my mind since yesterday evening....I saw Mr. Rumsfeld being interviewed on TV and he said: "our soldiers are doing a WONDERFUL job out there........"
I thought: what? What is he saying? wonderful? Doesn´t that word come from "full of wonders" isn´t a wonder something good? Can it be wonderful to kill and destroy? Not in my sense. Not at all. I hate this war. I spent 4 hours in the street yesterday forming a life chain with 5000 other people.
War is not the answer, never.

Adam Trahan
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Adam Trahan » Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:53 pm

Chris,

I like you. You are a nice person and I just want you to know this.

I respect you, but I disagree with your statement.

Our world we live in has elements that make WAR for PEACE a necessity.

I think that there is a good example on TV right now. Before that was Hitler. I am not a historian but I do know enough about what is going on now in Iraq and what happened in Germany.

In the future, and in our dreams maybe we can all disarm and then there will be no war.

I don't think this will happen, too many guns.

Please take no offense, none intended.

I respect you and your right to an opinon, I simply dis-agree with it.

Chris Eggers
Germany
Germany
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Chris Eggers » Tue Mar 25, 2003 7:58 am

Hey Adam, I don´t feel offended in any way. How could I? We are only discussing. We just have different opinions. Thats nothing bad.
I just hate war.
I was in the army in Germany for 15 months (mandatory) because I did not think enough about it back then. But I do now. I just believe that violence can not be eliminated with more violence.
Now back to peaceful skateboarding.

Matthew Wilson
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Lone Tree, CO
Contact:

Post by Matthew Wilson » Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:33 pm

On 2003-03-25 01:58, Chris Eggers wrote:
I just believe that violence can not be eliminated with more violence.
Now back to peaceful skateboarding.
Chris--
I used to agree with this statement. However, then I tried to picture myself going back and trying to explain that to 6 million Jews.
I think that the unfortunate truth of our world is that some forces must be reckoned with using aggressive or violent means. War does cost lives, and everyone would agree that such a fact sucks...we ALL hate this war in Iraq, nobody WANTS to be there. But it is important to consider the risk of not doing anything at all.

My personal feeling: This war was untimely. A lot of EU nations felt that the pressure was getting the inspections done, etc. And the reason for that was because there were 1/4 million troops on the Iraqi borders. I think that the US should have just kept the pressure on the inspections, but had the EU pay for 3/4 of the cost of keeping US forces stationed.
-----------------

I'm not trying to dispute you Chris, just repsond.
slalom is good

Brady Mitchell
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Hollywood Hills, Florida

Post by Brady Mitchell » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:21 am

Not to say I agree or disagree with any statements before this...

My personal opinion is that Saddam should have not been let get this far.

It is our (US) fault for backing him during the Iran/Iraq conflict. It is senior Bush`s fault for not finishing it in the earlt 90`s. It`s W. Bush`s fault for not handling the EU properly. It is the EU`s fault for letting France, Russia, China and other nations to take advantage of post Dessert Storm and following lack of sanction enforcement. It is Frances fault for sending a clear message to Iraq that they can continue status quo. And yes, it is W.Bush`s fault for dragging us into this in an untimely fashion.

I also am a realist and know there was probably no proper time frame to fix this bad situation.

Which governments who cried the loudest antiwar generally had the most to gain had there not been a war. those that backed the US also had the most to gain after a war.

Damned if you do, damned if you don`t.

I don`t like wars, but they happen.

May the casualties on both sides be kept at a bare minimum.

*********************************************

Nice thread of discussion guys, not like on that other site. Thanks Adam T.

Regards, Brady

John Gilmour
Team Roe Racing
Team Roe Racing
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am
Location: USA

Post by John Gilmour » Thu Mar 27, 2003 4:21 pm

Well violence is sometimes the only answer when some countries do not respond to reason or sanctions. Sometimes a little force can help to save many lives. If for instance resistance was met when Hitler marched into the Rhineland he might not have gotten the momentum he needed. Yes, 6 million Jews died. But also tons of other lives were lost- including the lives of Germans ...needlessly.

We dropped more explosive power in the bombing of Dresden, Germany than both Atomic bombs we dropped on Japan.

Stalin killed even more people. The problems on the macro scale are like the problems that occur in families when grievences are buried or ignored and then they just explode. Better to deal with problems while they are small.

Many people point the finger at each side...those are the good guys....those are the bad guys.... etc. Well both sides always are convinced through propaganda that they are on the side of good.

Some countries spin a better lie than others.

In regards to this war.
It is likely that Bush never intended to let the weapons inspectors finish the job.
It is likely that he never gave the weapons inspeactors enough clout to do their job properly.
It is likely that he never provided enough funding or the proper man power and skills need to let the weapons inspectors do their job.

Finally it is likely when dealing with compact weapons of "mass destruction" that weapons inspectors are simply ineffective todays. It was easy to count battleships in WW2. Though there were ways to cheat- as Japan made many small ships which were quickly converted, it is still hard to hide.

But hide a bomb in a suitcase- or stash a few thousand gallons of anthrax solution in a Oil container with a fake internal vessel and size the container "wrong" and bury it amongst hundreds of thousands of nearly identical containers....think about it. It just is too daunting a task for weapons inspectors to handle- and that is just one of infinite hiding places.

So Saddam- a guy who we propped up, must be removed, simply because he appears irresponsible to have weapons of mass destruction (gased the Kurds-genocide) and follows a doctrine which is in direct conflict with western beliefs.

But we aren't fighting for "freedom" or to "liberate the Iraqis from their oppressive regime". (lately I've been seeing the press interviewing the Iraqis looking for support- isn't it nice when all the media is controlled by people who love to receive "corporate welfare" and will capitulate easily. After all...how hard is it to manage 5 people?

No our motives for war are likely just greed.

If we were concerned about freedom and the welfare of others we might do something about the wars in Africa which have waged for years and years and end in endless starvation towns.

No it's about the money. And not just oil money for Mr. Bush and his friends. Mr. Bush, because I don't believe he truly won the election.

In any crime- the detective must look for motive.

Lets look at an interesting thing. We bombed Iraq before. We send aid to Iraq. This is frequently done after we go to war with a country.

So after the Gulf war was over- Vice President Dick Cheney went to work for Halliburton- a multibillion dollar OIL exploration Company as CEO. Under Dick Halliburton changed its accounting practices to reflect not its real accounts recievable, but speculation on accounts receiveable even over accounts in dispute. (Even the Mafia wouldn't do their books like this)- and friendly Arthur Anderson helped him do this. To not get busted they buried this as a minor footnote in the HUGE 1999 annual report. So this of course changed the stock value. How are CEO's compensated? Often through huge stock options.

So Dick Cheney was given a nice parachute out of Halliburton -a bunch of stock- Cheney cashed in his stock options in the summer of 2000 (election year) virtually a $35 million dollar "retirement contract". That would buy a lot of PVD's. Not bad for helping to perpetrate $89 million dollars of fraud in a 17 billion dollar company.

Halliburton's fortunes plunged since Cheney left.

So who gets awarded the contract to help rebuild Iraq by the USA?


Halliburton.

Pretty good deal. Lets look at the exchange. We fire a $750,000 Tomahawk Missile- cause about $4,000,000 in damage and then Halliburton gets to fix it.

What about pre war?
From September 1998 until just this past February Halliburton owned 51% of Dresser-Rand. It also owned 49% of Ingersoll-Pump until December 1999 and during the time the companies were operating as a joint venture they sold $23.8 million dollars of contracts for oil parts and equipment to Iraq. More than any other US company. Hmmmm wonder how those things got approved under sanctions? Who was at the helm?- you guessed it Dick Cheney- the guy pulling the strings behind the curtain of OZ. Everyone points the finger at the top guy and few notice what the #2 guy underneath is doing.

If you want sanctions to work....you don't give Iraq the key to "printing money" ie Oil equipment. Pretty simple formula- Dick won't follow it- his stock options were far too important to him than world peace- he had to "pump it up before the dump"

Either way Dick gets rich. I wonder how the mothers of the guys who have died so far would feel if they all knew this.

I wonder who Dick will work for after he is out of office...hmmmmm.

And of course it isn't only Cheney- its a lot of guys all doing similar things.

Skim .005% off a $10,000,000 company you'll make $50,000 ...hardly worth the effort. But you'll likely get away with it because it is so small. After all it is only one half of one hundredth of one percent.

Skim .005% off a $17 billion dollar compant. You net $89 million. What influence did this have on his stock options- huge.

So the bigger companies get....the more worthwhile it is for people to scam and skim.

Trends have been towards mergers and aquisitions for a reason. And Government officals...not just USA, approve them for a reason. The weight of the piece of the pie gets that much bigger for even a smaller (safer) slice.

Ever done that take a penny and double it every day for a month thing? In a 31 day month you end up with $21,474,836.48

So Corporations of equal size merging another of equal size get staggeringly huge in short order.

Brady Mitchell
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Hollywood Hills, Florida

Post by Brady Mitchell » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:41 am

Great post John!

Leaves me to wonder a few things..

First of all, I`ve got almost a year under my belt with my new biz and it`s just starting to take off. My goal is to offer quality customer service with environmentally sound product/services.

And the bigger picture is success with this goal and get rich.

So maybe I have it all wrong? Maybe I should make enough money to buy all the little companies I can and continue this practice even though I will be doing it knowingly with customer service slacking off. The new objective is throw as much $#!+ against the wall and count all that sticks. Bigger is better at all costs as profit margins on a multi-billion dollar corporation, even small in percentage, is still a great deal of moola..

Naw, I`ll stick with my original goal and be content with honest money.

********************************************

Secondly, though I have never publically spoken for or against this latest war, I am increasingly becoming leary of those who set it in motion.

The biggest thing that bothers me is that politics seems all too often about $$$. I listen to Rush Limbaugh and he points to crooked Democrats. I live in Florida and see crooked republicans first hand. Jeb Bush was put here for a reason. Funny how someone not from this state, who has a hispanic wife, all of a sudden gets in power after his daddy is the president. A huge hispanic vote accounts for his election. Also funny since most hispanics are below the corporate level of those that prosper under Republican held offices. Now his brothers struggles with an election into his daddies office and poof!!...amazing debacle with our states election. Votes lost, popular Democrat precincts have confusing ballot (West Palm) and the big hanging chad comedy.

Now don`t get me wrong, there are plenty of crooked Democrats. Clintons were big on the S&L scam. Why wasn`t he pinned on that? Gee, guess who started it all, yup, Reagonomics and his deregulating of the banking industry. The Republicans didn`t really want to take Clinton down with that or else a lot of their constituents would`ve gone down with him too. No, just enough dirt along with the BJ scandal to ensure a Republican to come into office.

I might seem more down on the Reps than the Dems as it seems the smaller guy is the one who falls the hardest when our economy slumps.

Now one can point at Jimmy Carter and the recession during his presidecy but that was set in motion by, guess who? yup, a republican.

*********************************************

Does any of what I just wrote really matter? More than likely not. It`ll be BUISNESS as usual in politics. The mighty dollar rules.

And I am not the least surprised. Just hope I can weather this current administration and their negative impact on our economy.

You see, yeah, I can feel for the families of the soldiers over there but more importantly, I basically worried how it will affect me and my loved ones.

((I haven`t skated in the past 2 weeks as i`ve been buisy at work. Man I`m getting old. Making money out weighs having fun))

Maybe I`ll change my voting status from non-partisan to Republican too...`fraid not. Too much soul in me to go that way. Gotta look out for those that can`t or are ignorant to do it themselves.

*********************************************

On another note, I hear that in Germany, they are removing American products from thier menus? No more Coke or Pepsi. And no, you can`t use you AMEX to pay for your weiner schitzel. Are they without sins in this ordeal? Did they not have the largest contract for laying fiber optic cable for phones, when it is clearly known that the cable was to be used for military purposes, against what the peace treaty following the Gulf War`s accords. And what about the pesticide plant that they along with France had helped the Iragis build. Just what kind of pests do they have out in the sand. Other than Kurds that is. If yit were for tat, maybe we should all stop buying Heinekin and Amstel. Hold off on that new Benz (this ones directed at you John), heh heh!!!

*********************************************

It`s all BS and I`m sic of it. Time to go skate...DOH!!! It just rained 4" and it`ll stay wet until I have buisness accounts to service...oh well.......... :sad:

Chris Eggers
Germany
Germany
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Chris Eggers » Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:07 am

Hey Brady, just as I read this I drank a nice cold Coca Cola. No sign of a boycott here.

Slappy Maxwell
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 1:00 am
Contact:

Post by Slappy Maxwell » Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:08 am

Boycott Heineken and Amstel?

Uhhhh...although it was occupied by the Germans during WWII, the Netherlands, home of Heineken and Amstel, is an independent country.

The Germans actually prevented its export in 1940.

Mercedes is part of DaimlerChrysler a multinational corporation based in the US and Germany.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: slappy maxwell on 2003-03-30 20:09 ]</font>

Brady Mitchell
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Hollywood Hills, Florida

Post by Brady Mitchell » Tue Apr 01, 2003 4:41 am

I don`t actually adhere to banning any product from any country as I don`t believe it does what it is supposed to...effect that country of the product into changing it`s policies. It only effects those that work for the company, directly or indirectly.

But in my defense, wasn`t it Hieneken that had the commercial touting (Germany`s #1 beer) ?? And are you aware of DaimlerBenz` contract with Iraq after the first gulf war, providing them with military trucks?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Brady Mitchell on 2003-04-01 12:16 ]</font>

John Gilmour
Team Roe Racing
Team Roe Racing
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am
Location: USA

Post by John Gilmour » Tue Apr 01, 2003 8:03 am

I think Greenies are from Denmark

Slappy Maxwell
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 1:00 am
Contact:

Post by Slappy Maxwell » Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:02 am

Warsteiner is actually touted as the '#1 selling beer of Germany.' (Vlad should show up any minute now).

Heineken is definitely from the Netherlands.

From the Heineken website...

"The history of Heineken starts on December 16th, 1863. On this day Gerard Adriaan Heineken - then aged 22 - purchased De Hoolberg [The Haystack] brewery in Amsterdam.
Dating back to 1592, it was then the largest brewery in the Amsterdam region."

Too bad Heineken isn't as good as it's marketing. Oranjeboom is a way better Dutch beer.

Vlad can tell you the reason there isn't a Heineken Lite.

There should be a beer forum in here.
War bad.
Beer good.

Adam Trahan
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Adam Trahan » Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:49 pm

Oranjeboom? Oh my goodness, this is one of my favorite imports when I can get it. My first Oranjeboom was back in 1979. I've only had a few six packs since then but it is really good beer. I also enjoy Negro Modelo (Mexican dark ale) and Guiness mixed with Bass (black and tans) and yes, I like Heineken and Lowenbrau.

Slappy, if we ever meet, we have to have a few beers.
On 2003-04-02 23:02, slappy maxwell wrote:
Warsteiner is actually touted as the '#1 selling beer of Germany.' (Vlad should show up any minute now).

Heineken is definitely from the Netherlands.

From the Heineken website...

"The history of Heineken starts on December 16th, 1863. On this day Gerard Adriaan Heineken - then aged 22 - purchased De Hoolberg [The Haystack] brewery in Amsterdam.
Dating back to 1592, it was then the largest brewery in the Amsterdam region."

Too bad Heineken isn't as good as it's marketing. Oranjeboom is a way better Dutch beer.

Vlad can tell you the reason there isn't a Heineken Lite.

There should be a beer forum in here.
War bad.
Beer good.

John Gilmour
Team Roe Racing
Team Roe Racing
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am
Location: USA

Post by John Gilmour » Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:19 pm

Hopefully this war will be over soon. I have to say that despite my post on war profiteering I still think this war must be played out. There will be atrocities committed by both sides and spins on what really happened- and EVEN if you WERE there you might not know what really happened.

Such is war. With and without hidden motives.

Give guns to a bunch of kids and stuff happens.

Too bad we couldn't have Bush and Saddam settle their differences on the slalom course.

What would happen?

Would Bush require a recount of all the cones-while Saddam was secretly hiding the ones he knocked over while refusing to let the cone marshalls inspect the course? Would Cheney run off with a percentage of the prizes? Would Bush's accuracy be within a yard of ever cone? Would the video of the race be of the actual race or would it have been shot from before. Who knows?

Vlad Popov
Moscow-Washington
Moscow-Washington
Posts: 1543
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Post by Vlad Popov » Thu Apr 03, 2003 8:30 pm

It was in the 1980s when some big-shot marketing heads predicted that Coke and Pepsi will soon be competing selling…..water. They now do. The reason for their prediction was excessive diversifying within a brand. Light, Caffeine free light, regular, cherry, lemon, lime -you get the point.
Same people cautioned beer companies from getting involved in the “light beer” campaign so that they won’t compete selling water soon and loosing money while doing it. Too late. Look at the current American beer market.
Same people predicted a failure for some major American beer marketing campaigns, such as Miller beer. Their High-life, Low-life, got-no-life, sucky-life-light, higher-life-ultra-light ect. approach has choked the company, and not ones. Unfortunately, ones committed, they couldn’t turn back.

Coors beer. The ones famous American light beer (yes, naturally light, not the kind of light as in Coors light, it’s absurd! A light light beer….). When it was sold in four states, the company had a name and money. Today they have hyper advertising needs and water.

Warsteiner is a German “Budweiser”. It is the best selling German beer in the world. It tastes like light beer is supposed to taste like. I think the idea was to make Pilsner but without all the bitterness. Serious beer drinkers shouldn’t expect much from best sellers. I’m not one of them.

Heineken is more image then a beer. And a very smart marketing campaign. Amstel light is the Heineken’s light beer in the US. Even though regular Amstel is sold in some stores in US. You will never see Heineken light and you won't see regular Amstel in 90 % of US stores that sell beer.

I think Orangeboom and is much gooder then Heineken.

The Information War has already been lost.

Let’s have a couple of beers after Cyber Slalom tonight?

Vlad.

Brady Mitchell
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Hollywood Hills, Florida

Post by Brady Mitchell » Thu Apr 03, 2003 11:56 pm

I can`t remember where I saw it but it was a pic posted of a cafe` in Amsterdam with a chalkboard advertising the winner of the World Beer Cup on sale there.... Anchor Steam beer from San Fran, CA., USA.

In 1976 I was drinking it directly from the copper vats as my cousin was the brew meister.

Still my favorite beer I`ve had yet, but then again, I haven`t tried some of those mentioned above.

THAT`S WHAT WE NEED....BEER WARS.. heh heh !!!

John Gilmour
Team Roe Racing
Team Roe Racing
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am
Location: USA

Post by John Gilmour » Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:21 pm

So I ordered a Greenie just to verify that I was wrong. I had a great conversation with a friend of mine. This of course always gets longwinded- but here are some excerpts on Geopolitical issues- and energy strategies.


I don't know how long the war will last, but my instinct is that it won't be too much longer. In any case, casualties will not be a significant factor in constraining U.S. military operations or objectives. We are willing to trade US soldiers' lives for those of Iraqi civilians now. Only a massive use of WMD could affect our strategy. If such weapons were employed, we would not withdraw, but instead use less discriminating and more powerful aerial bombardment, with a regrettable impact on Iraqi civilians.

Yes. I AM concerned about the asset quality of US banks. They have have deteriorated more than is admitted by regulators. I am in fact concerned that the generalized problem of systematic looting of American corporations by greedy CEOs. These activities have thinned out many corporations' effectiveness thresholds and compromised their abilities to marshal their resources for a competitive future.

I also do not believe that this recession will end.



I will follow this up with a more detailed discussion on America's economic situation. For now, I will give you my take from DC, etc., regarding this war and its implications for the rest of the world.

It is my belief that we will win sooner, rather than later, and that our principal planning concern is about postwar occupation, especially regarding our soldiers getting shot in the back by terrorists coming across the Syrian border, using it as a sanctuary like Cambodia and Laos during Vietnam. The American officer corp will exert increasing pressure on the White House, with Powell leading that pressure, ironically, for an invasion of Syria. Do not underestimate the Vietnam alumni experience among the US officer corp in forcing the White House to despatch Syria after Iraq. Bashar Assad has nothing to offer but anti-US speeches, guerrillas (which he is already sending across the border openly), and every intention of throwing a monkey wrench into the Palestinian-Israeli peace settlement. I want him out and so does the uniformed military, regardless of what Rumsfeld and Bush say. Powell, being a Vietnam alumnus, could surprise everyone and quietly push for this. Discussions on this subject are already going on in Tel Aviv, to warn the Israelis not to interfere, buy their silence with money, and force them to accept our peace proposal, which includes a Palestinian state, a divided Jerusalem, an end to settlements, and a substantial withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza, including the settlements. There will be no negotiation. Tel Aviv and the Palestinians will have to accept this deal or there will be hell to pay. This issue has been a distracting issue for too long and we have lost our patience for it - for both the Palestinians and the Israelis. They are not dealing with an honest broker any longer. They are dealing with a patron that expects to be obeyed. OBEYED. Taking out Assad's regime, freeing Lebanon, and destroying all terrorist camps in both countries will go a long way towards easing Israeli anxieties and especially our own. You cannot imagine how profoundly 911 changed American attitudes about tolerating these kinds of regimes and using the diplomatic approach with them. We have had enough of being people's bogeyman and our answer is to inflict those who do this sort of thing to us with disastrous consequences. Our occupation of Iraq will not involve stealing Iraqi oil revenues. Increasing Iraqi oil production to 10 mbd will lower global oil prices more than enough to give America's economy a boost. (It will also punish the Russians for opposing us when their oil hard currency revenues plumment). The revenues will be used to do a replay of our occupation of Germany and Japan and to give the Arabs an alternative that does not include irredeemably corrupt monarchies, the Taliban, or viciously repressive military dictatorships. These rotten alternatives are the root cause of a lot of this anyway and we are going to pull this problem out at its roots. Iran will be sufficiently deterred by the Afghan, Iraqi, and Syrian examples from interfering with our occupation to avoid American military attack. We believe that Iran is on the verge of revolution anyway and we may as well let the very pro-American Iranian population do their own work. As for Pakistan, it is almost ungovernable and I doff my hat to Mushariff. If he is overthrown, however, by some Taliban-like regime with its existing nuclear weaposn, we will either attack Pakistan or in any case give India the green light to do so. As for North Korea, it is amazing that Kim Jong Il seems so keen to get our attention, especially in the mood we're in now. Very foolish. We are not interested in direct negotiations and allowing Pyongyang to identify us as the enemy. No. This concerns Japan, China, and South Korea, as well. Every time Kim shoots a missile over South Korea or Japan, Japan cooperates ever more closely with us on TMD and becomes more sympathetic to the preemptive doctrine, especially as the Chinese are not viewed as exerting any pressure on the North to get rid of these weapons. Japanese would like to avoid going nuclear, due to the domestic political instability that would cause, but given the only semi-democratic nature of the Japanese regime, the people may just have to accept this change with a good grace, as the Japanese Cabinet Secretaries, one after the other, make it very clear that a credibly nuclear armed North Korea is unnacceptable to Tokyo and will result in Tokyo's putting its existing warheads on top of its existing missiles. I obviously would be very upset about this. A nuclear Japan is nothing but a wildcard and will very likely tempt Beijing into a preemptive strike of its own on its old enemy, for histotically understandable reasons. We are treaty-bound to stand with the Japanese against any such attack and would inevitably result in a nuclear exchange between the US and China, which would of course be regrettable and tragic, but solve the problem of a 'rising China.' Needless to say, I hope the Chinese slap the North Koreans on the head and get them to disgorge these weapons credibly - no Saddam like games - so we can avoid this catastrophic chain of events. I do not want a nuclear Japan and a nuclear exchange with China, Japan, and the US over some delusional North Korean is quite ridiculous. I also see dangerous signs in South America, by the way, but oil on that continent will eventually merit American strategic attention.

As for America's deficits, I quite agree. They are serious. I do not care for Bush's excessive tax cuts and the deficits they are causing and I resent their being adopted in war-time, presumably a time of common sacrifice and not of greed. Unfortunately, Bush will get some of what he wants, but I also believe that it will be pared back and that tax increases will come in future years to restore the progress we were making in cutting our national debt. Before 911, the Democrats were winning on these issues. 911 caught them off guard and utterly unable to cope with national security issues - which is always the case, but centrist Republican senators will force a revisiting of certain tax cut issues and we will hopefully get our finances in good enough shape to do what we must do for our own people and project power abroad. Britain stayed an empire for longer than the French because Britain's finances were always in such good shape that her borrowing power was unlimited in wartime. We must follow the same policy. (We will also restore the US Dollar as the currency denomination of Iraqi oil sales. That was one of the unpardonable sins Saddam committed and which provoked the Bushites).

As for our attitude towards China, it is not only benign, but friendly, if China helps us on North Korea and helps us avoid the Japanese nuclear question, which is actually of greater concern to China than to America. Neoconservatives frankly believe that continued communist rule keeps limits China's ability to reform itself and throttles her growth as a rival great power. This means that the US will, under a Bush and the Washington mandiranate, continue to take a sympathetic view towards the CCP regime so long as it does not challenge our security system in the far east and does no mischief in our new writ in the Caspian basin. Needless to say, our view of Putin is less friendly these days, but the decision to garrison central asian republics on China's border (under the rubric of fighting the war on terrorism) was no accident. Putin got us to guaranty Russia's territorial integrity and to back that guaranty up with American military basing systems, which we obviously not withdraw. His freedom of action is cynical (as we are hooked for our own interests), but is a correct calculation of what we are prepared to do to prevent the domination of the Eurasian landmass by China.

Regarding India, we are well-disposed to the Indians and appreciate their anxiety about both Pakistan and China, but we are also aware of India's "Power Projection Plan," to colonize East Africa, which we will not permit. This may prove to be a sticking point between Washington and New Delhi. We are simply unwilling to sanction anyone's territotial aggrandizement. Even our own occupation policies in the middle east are proving to be something of a policy war, as the same military that advocates the invasion of Syria dislikes playing the role of the French Foreign Legion. US occupation policies and this second gulf war can be best characterized by the WW-I WW-II analogy. We didn't do after WW-I what we did after WW-II, so we got WW-II. This second gulf war is WW-II, if you follow the analogy, and our occupation objectives will be limited tp restoring order, keeping Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon to stable Sovereign status, and preventing a repetition of the endless coups that have made that regime unlivable and a breeding ground for 911s. Eventually, if we are successful in creating democracies like Germany and Japan, the US military presence will be drastically reduced to a garrison outside Baghdad, Damascus, and Beirut to prevent or if necessary overturn coups, an air force base to prevent further wars, and a naval base to protect the flow of oil and if necessary to restrict it to any country that makes mischief. We will not become a colonial empire like the British and even our rather small military budget (4% of our gdp) may be sufficient to this task, although I would like to see us increase this budget by a point to enhance our lift capabilities. Our technological advances seem to be coming so rapidly that I have been rather shocked by its pace and scope. Already, the Air Force is well on its way to making a viable intra-atmospheric air craft. The Jt-strike fighter will be the last manned jet fighter for operations inside the atmospheric dome. Other tests have gone well enough for us to proceed with the advanced air craft projects.

Bush's hydrogen energy project is something of a ruse. It is on the one hand a sop to the environmentalists and a distraction to conceal other energy projects which are not only more promising, but will give us the ability to proceed with a new and more ambitious space program and a new era of manufacturing, based on a proproetary energy source.

All of these developments have admittedly made the Administration too cocksure, but it also gives it the confidence to finally address the issue of Arab-Muslim terrorism, WMD, and the Palestinian problem. It also allows us to be more tolerant of sane regimes like China's, so long as China in no way threatens us. We have other fish to fry in Latin America, Europe, the Middle East, the Caspian Basin, and in our own country, where we have serious problems we need to address. There is no reason for a confrontation between the US and China when they can put to rest distractions like North Korea and every reason for China to cooperate with an economy which is willing to indulge (mistakenly, in my view) hundred billion dollar trade deficits and see the PBoC's forex reserves get larger.

I will send you more on the war later, but I hope this world view helps describe the atmosphere in Washington DC and gives you a framework for thinking about the international situation.

Eric Groff
Eric Groff
Eric Groff
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:00 am
Location: CA, USA

Post by Eric Groff » Sun Apr 20, 2003 4:00 am

In a recent poll of french citizens, 88% agreed that:

America is the reckless bully in the standoff with Saddam Hussein

They said America is the aggressor

They said America is serving it’s own self interests

They said they would not participate in a war of aggression

They said they will “sit this one out”


US Military Cemetery-Normandy, France.
4,410 American Dead

US Military Cemetery-Brittany, France.
9,387 American Dead

US Military Cemetery-Lorraine, France.
10,489 American Dead

US Military Cemetery-Somme, France.
30,921 American Dead

Unknown US Military Graves- France
Over 18,000 Unknown or Missing American Dead

Total American Dead Defending France
Over 65,000

Lest We Or They Forgot

Eric Groff
Eric Groff
Eric Groff
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:00 am
Location: CA, USA

Post by Eric Groff » Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:02 am

Etinnie-
Here is some other interesting facts you might enjoy.

Facts on Who Benefits From Keeping Saddam Hussein In Power
by The Heritage Foundation
WebMemo #217
February 28, 2003

France
According to the CIA World Factbook, France controls over 22.5 percent
of Iraq's imports. French total trade with Iraq under the
oil-for-food program is the third largest, totaling $3.1 billion since
1996, according to the United Nations.
In 2001 France became Iraq's largest European trading partner.
Roughly 60 French companies do an estimated $1.5 billion in trade with
Baghdad annually under the U.N. oil-for-food program.
France's largest oil company, Total Fina Elf, has negotiated a deal
to develop the Majnoon field in western Iraq. The Majnoon field
purportedly contains up to 30 billion barrels of oil. Total Fina Elf
also negotiated a deal for future oil exploration in Iraq's Nahr Umar
field. Both the Majnoon and Nahr Umar fields are estimated to contain as
much as 25 percent of the country's reserve.
France's Alcatel company, a major telecom firm, is negotiating a $76
million contract to rehabilitate Iraq's telephone system. From 1981
to 2001, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research
Institute (SIPRI), France was responsible for over 13 percent of Iraq's
arms imports.

So Etniien, Whos blood is it anyways that you put in your vehicle? Your Own.........

Etienne de Bary
Etienne
Etienne
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:00 am
Contact:

Post by Etienne de Bary » Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:17 am

1st , maybe it's time to decide if this forum is international or not, if it is open maybe such things as "i hate french" (as Arab does on right slope post) should be expressed in other forms. On the other hand he shows how little he knows of the world, since french generally would agree very much, we're all pissed off with french ourselves... :wink:
On the same tune, though we often dislike US foreign policy, we like american visitors, if Credit Cards are sometimes refused it is because of the high charges banks take on these payments, and maybe some enterprises are not as universal as they pretend, Visa is much better, cash is allways accepted kindly.
i'll make a quote to follow

Etienne de Bary
Etienne
Etienne
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:00 am
Contact:

Post by Etienne de Bary » Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:56 am

On 2003-04-20 00:02, ARAB wrote:
according to the United Nations.
In 2001 France became Iraq's largest European trading partner.
Roughly 60 French companies do an estimated $1.5 billion in trade with
Baghdad annually under the U.N. oil-for-food program.
Oil for food was a legal program, after everyone could see that starving irakis was a strong help to Saddam's regime.
France's largest oil company, Total Fina Elf, has negotiated a deal
to develop the Majnoon field in western Iraq. The Majnoon field
purportedly contains up to 30 billion barrels of oil. Total Fina Elf
also negotiated a deal for future oil exploration in Iraq's Nahr Umar
field. Both the Majnoon and Nahr Umar fields are estimated to contain as
much as 25 percent of the country's reserve.

Excellent information to understand the goals of the attack better
France's Alcatel company, a major telecom firm, is negotiating a $76
million contract to rehabilitate Iraq's telephone system.
They are the best, let's face it there is little chance they get the market...
From 1981
to 2001, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research
Institute (SIPRI), France was responsible for over 13 percent of Iraq's
arms imports.
who did the remaining 87 ?
So Etniien, Whos blood is it anyways that you put in your vehicle?
My name is Etienne,
i do not use a car and i do not own one, i sometimes rent one. i live in a well managed city, with an excellent transportation system, and i sometimes use a skateboard too.

Since the 74 oil crisis we have considerably reduced our energetic dependencies, which allows european administrations a straighter foreign policy than before, far from perfect though.

Fill a gas tank here, you will painfully feel the difference.

After the humiliations following the Iranian revolution, Irak was armed to punish the Mollahs, all western nations took part in it but US paid the large bill...
and it did cost 10 million lives ; to the general satisfaction, if i remember, that was only local casualities.

After punishing the fundamentalists of Iran, US trained the Talibans to destabilise the communist regime in Afganistan. These people were allways excellent and pitiless fighters, but this training made them modern champions.
The resulting war, and the following regime, had the local population reduced by 2 millions (starting from 5) ; and (much more important of course) some talibans managed to reduce the New-York people by 5000 too.

i could give some dozen other exemples but i'll make it short, by quoting mr Henri Kissinger himself, who after the coup of Chili, september 11, 1973, declared "-Democracy is important, but if the people make the wrong choice we have the right to defend ourselves."
That was long before political correcness was invented

Eric Groff
Eric Groff
Eric Groff
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:00 am
Location: CA, USA

Post by Eric Groff » Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:26 am

The other 87%

The former Soviet Union was the premier supplier of Iraqi arms. From
1981 to 2001, Russia supplied Iraq with 50 percent of its arms

According to a report from SIPRI, from 1981 to 2001, China was the
second largest supplier of weapons and arms to Iraq, supplying over 18
percent of Iraq's weapons imports.

Private German corprations were responsiable for another 10 percent of arms sales to Iraq

The remainder came from fellow muslim countries.

Eric Groff
Eric Groff
Eric Groff
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:00 am
Location: CA, USA

Post by Eric Groff » Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:27 am

What's The Score?
The Complete Military History of France
- Gaelic Wars - Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

- Hundred Years War - Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman."

-Italian Wars - Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.

- Wars of Religion - France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots

- Thirty Years War - France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

- War of Devolution - Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

-The Dutch War Tied.

-War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War. Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.

-War of the Spanish Succession - Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since.

- American Revolution - In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome," and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare: "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

- French Revolution - Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.

- The Napoleonic Wars - Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

- The Franco-Prussian War - Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

- World War I - Tied on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

-World War II - Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

- War in Indochina - Lost. French forces plead sickness, take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu

- Algerian Rebellion - Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare: "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.

- War on Terrorism - France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.

Eric Groff
Eric Groff
Eric Groff
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:00 am
Location: CA, USA

Post by Eric Groff » Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:28 am

Donald Rumsfeld said it right:

"Going into battle without the French is like going deerhunting without your accordian". Who needs 'em!! The 1st thing a French soldier learns in boot camp is how to surrender. Ungrateful Frogs!!

My favorite was Sen. McCain's: "France is like the old bar maiden who's still trying to live off her looks."

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me."
--- General George S. Patton

"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure"
---Jacques Chirac, President of France

"As far as France is concerned, you're right."
---Rush Limbaugh,

"The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee."

--- Regis Philbin

Next time there's a war in Europe, the loser has to keep France

An old saying:
Raise your right hand if you like the French....
Raise both hands if you are French.

"I don't know why people are surprised that France won't help us get Saddam out of Iraq. After all, France wouldn't help us get the Germans out of France!"
---Jay Leno

"The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into Paris under a German flag."

--David Letterman

How many Frenchmen does it take to change a light bulb?
One. He holds the bulb and all of Europe revolves around him.


And My favorite:

There was a Frenchman, an Englishman and Claudia Schiffer sitting together in a carriage in a train going through Provence. Suddenly the train went through a tunnel and as it was an old style train, there were no lights in the carriages and it went completely dark. Then there was a kissing noise and the sound of a really loud slap. When the train came out of the tunnel, Claudia Schiffer and the Englishman were sitting as if nothing had happened and the Frenchman had his hand against his face as if he had been slapped there. The Frenchman was thinking: 'The English fella must have kissed Claudia Schiffer and she missed him and slapped me instead.' Claudia Schiffer was thinking: 'The French fella must have tried to kiss me and actually kissed the Englishman and got slapped for it.' And the Englishman was thinking: 'This is great. The next time the train goes through a tunnel I'll make another kissing noise and slap that French bastard again.'

Etienne de Bary
Etienne
Etienne
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:00 am
Contact:

Post by Etienne de Bary » Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:11 pm

my dear Arab,

i think you are a bit excited, you have an incredible talent for off topic posting, first you post your little mass extermination wishes in the "right slope" topic now you start pushing jokes and WWII comments here...
i suppose i do not have to create a new topic to tell you that if the nazi and japanese fascist forces had been clever enough to keep attacking their enemies one by one instead of opening more than 3 different fronts only on their own initiative, we would live in a rather different world. USA wouldn't have got up to protect the Russians, Nor Stalin to protect the Americans.

One thing you guys never understand is most French people are not French ambassador in the US. We do not wish to defend and explain anything our government or people does or is supposed to do.
Most French people consider French stuff a bore, it changes when we are far from home for a while though.
Adam invites us on this forum as an international forum, that means everyone talks for himself only, not for De Gaulle, who was not a very democratic figure in my opinion, but we are close to anachronism here.

Only a minority of those of you who voted in the US has wished to have W as president...

Now the present situation is: US army occupies Irak against the will of the United Nations, and the prestige of the United States is obviously going down everywhere in the world, including UK. Jacques Chirac has a big mouth as most french, but if you think most germans belgians or turks approve, you are wrong.

Of all task forces in the world, the US army is probably the less popular in that part of the world. Right or wrong, people in these neighborhood consider that US administration, together with the Sahoud and various international enterprises, are responsible with most of their trouble.

all of the arguments used to explain the attack did or will reveal untrue (i can detail)


Scenarii starting from now only offer a range of final possibilities going from local chaos to planetary chaos (this is more subjective of course.) Right or wrong, the locals and all populations eventually touched will consider the US adminstration responsable once again.

Adam Trahan
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Adam Trahan » Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:02 pm

Gentlemen,

Hate directed posts are not tollerated.

etienne, your "signature" is your signature. If you want to keep it the way it was, that is your choice.

ARAB, you have been warned 2 times now, there will be no 3rd warning. If you want to be banned, that is your choice. Please go back and edit your post, taking one single word out will do it and it doesn't have to be the word HATE. You can HATE ______, no problem there but you can't say I hate ______ people.

Learn the rules and use them to get your point accross.

Keep off topic posts here.

Try to have a nice day,

adam

John Gilmour
Team Roe Racing
Team Roe Racing
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am
Location: USA

Post by John Gilmour » Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:38 pm

http://www.pavefrance.com/blog/jokes.php

for the French jokes.
For the war review

http://www.pavefrance.com/blog/archives/000101.html

Lots of fun is poked at the French because of the impressions that Americans and others get when visiting Paris.

Paris isn't France anymore than New York City is the USA.

Paris is in some ways similar to NYC- except for this....

Traffic during tourist season in Paris - is completely choking- they suffer somewhat in the way that Venice does only worse since people drive to Paris. Venice's population surges several fold in tourist season. And Paris is expensive and you will see many tourist buses that spend no money in France $0- they bring in all their own food and perhaps only buy a T-shirt.

Meanwhile of the Tourists that have money...say for instance, the Japanese- many of them wait in long lines in front of Parisian shops like Louis Vitton trying to buy several handbags to avoid paying duty on these items at home. So much black market trade goes on that they actually limit the amount each person can buy.


When I was in Paris walking alone I found myself asked for directions by tourists no less than 5 times in one day while sightseeing. For a native Parisian....that has got to get annoying after a while. So justifiably Parisians like New Yorkers can get a little rude. And just like New Yorkers (I'm one) we are not all rude.


My over all impressions of the French did change. I went to a competition outside of Paris in St. Laury and found the French there to be nearly as accommodating as the Swiss. I was doing some laundry at a coin operated Laundromat and found all the washers were taken. A French woman saw that I had no place to put my clothes and she pulled some of her clothes out of a washer she was loading clothing into and gave me hers. I tried to give her the coins for it- but she wouldn't take it and just smiled and wished me luck at the Competition. Most of the People in St. Laury were nice like that.

Also the French aren't into large scale organized sport as much as we are in the USA as a result many "Extreme sports" like skateboarding, skydiving, skysurfing, etc... get regular coverage over there.

There is a French Mag called "New Look" that often featured snowboarding in its infancy and when I tried to start the first "Snowboard Camp" in the Early 80's all the USA resorts said "No" and wouldn't give me the snowmaking and grooming gear to build the first snowhalfpipe. Jeff Grell of Sims gave me the first plan for a snowhalfpipe- and the French were the first people to embrace that idea. The first snowboard camp was held at Tignes ski resort in France and they were very helpful.

Lastly- the one of the best funded skateboard associations in the Early 1990's was The French National Committee D' Skate. Funded with I think over $200,000 USD (which back then -in the slow years- was a lot to inject into skating). The Snurf Ramp company helped introduce French and others to easily assembled modular skateparks (even modular wooden bowls when Halfpipes were the dominant rage) that actually had flow.

So while it is easy to bust on the French for their Military- they have contributed.

Some of the best times of my life spent Heliboarding aboard a high altitude French Lama helicopter would not have been possible without the French.

Yes the French have great cooking, fashion, and supposedly perfected several sexual techniques.

BUT I did once own a French car………………. A seemingly like new White Renault Alliance with 12,000 miles "for a deal" I thought I scored for $1500 -----what a money pit.... never again.

Cost me well over $4000 in endless "surprise repairs" in the first 4 months of ownership and in the end a crazy Moroccan Roommate stole the car and later abandoned it leaving me to pick up the tab for that worthless excuse for an auto which we dubbed "Renault Le Piece of S-it".

I later gave that police recovered Renault to a friend who yet dumped another $3000 into it- only to have his roommate total it 2 weeks after it got on the road. I can heartily advise anyone thinking of buying a French car not to do it.

Given my negative first experience with car ownership to owning a Renault I can understand why Etienne de Bary does not like driving and why he is against any country - even his own country, going to war to secure petrochemicals.

If I only owned French cars I would likely feel the same way. I can't tell you how much I hated that car. Dropped Transmissions, busted fuel pump, rotted tires, leaky radiator, slipping alternator belts, endless freon leaks in the A/C, bad CV joints- CV boots that would tear during parking, failed emissions tests, stripped steering rack, shot rear driver side wheel bearing, warped rotors, windows cranks stripped so windows stayed stuck down, Stripped driver side wiper- so you had to drive leaning over the passenger in the rain. The rear defroster would work when ever it felt like it. Intermittent headlights, high beams that got stuck on ON endless pissing off oncoming traffic, …and those were only the main things.


Perhaps both Arab and Etienne at one time owned Renault Alliances.


So I hope some people will come to France to race at the Trocadero- plan on buying good food and wine- and forget about the cars. Airfare should be rock bottom due to current American attitudes.

Also if you have never been to Paris you can see almost all of the Major sites by skateboard in about 2 hours. You won't need to rent a car and your skateboard isn't affected by traffic.

For the wives lurking on this site, this might be your only chance to go to a race that isn't in the middle of nowhere on some dusty road with porta potties.

Advice to the husbands- lower the credit cards spending limits before your decide to bring her.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-04-21 17:08 ]</font>

Frederic Reveillard
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:00 am
Location: France

Post by Frederic Reveillard » Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:32 pm

etienne,
je devrai attendre le mois prochain pour juger des progres que tu as fait en slalom,mais par contre je sais ce que tu peux valoir humainement;je me doute qu'il t'en a coute d'abandonner ta signature...
un dernier conseil:oublie arab...soit il est tare,soit il boit trop,mais il ne n'existe que par l'attention que l'on lui porte!
va voir sur ncdsa et tu comprendras

bravo(reelement)
fred

Chris Eggers
Germany
Germany
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Chris Eggers » Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:39 am

John

I will most likely be in Paris for the Trocadero race, I will tell you about my Peugeot 205 then. It carried me 300.000 km to various snowboard trips and vert contests and never failed on the road. So I think your french car was just bad luck.
I rented an american car in Utah a few years ago. After a week two doors didn´t open anymore and a bunch of plastic parts fell off in the interior.
It can also happen to a german car. That happened to me twice in the last two months.
See you soon.

Etienne de Bary
Etienne
Etienne
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:00 am
Contact:

Post by Etienne de Bary » Tue Apr 22, 2003 1:32 pm

On 2003-04-21 13:38, John Gilmour wrote: Traffic during tourist season in Paris - is completely choking-
Driving in Paris is just not a good idea,
good ways of moving in Paris are Metro (tubeway train), buses, bicycle rollers or skate (watch the cars, use the wide sidewalks and bus lines), and most of all WALKING,
only walking allows to permanently watch the building faces without risks. Paris "intra-muros" (not the suburbs) is not such a large city.
taxis are great at night, when you get tired just look around the corner...
During rush hours Metro will take you anywhere in 40 minutes
When I was in Paris walking alone I found myself asked for directions by tourists no less than 5 times in one day while sightseeing. For a native Parisian....that has got to get annoying after a while. So justifiably Parisians like New Yorkers can get a little rude. And just like New Yorkers (I'm one) we are not all rude.
Just act like as you remember the guy has something to do for his living, but take the time to a bit formal, and they'll do anything for you
There is a French Mag called "New Look"
arrrgh! terrible crap !
I did once own a French car [...] Renault Alliance with 12,000 miles "for a deal"
Anywhere in the world you'd better watch the inside before buying a 2d hand car, Renault has a terrible reputation for that,...

Peugeot and Citroen are good cars, and Renault too, but they don't last as long.
Last time i was in the US i drove a "small" new city Lincoln, honestly, an average french car like a Peugeot 205, as modest as it looks, is quite as safe even after a few years of use.
[/quote]

Etienne de Bary
Etienne
Etienne
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:00 am
Contact:

Post by Etienne de Bary » Tue Apr 22, 2003 1:42 pm

On 2003-04-21 14:32, Frederic reveillard wrote:
je devrai attendre le mois prochain pour juger des progres que tu as fait en slalom,mais par contre je sais ce que tu peux valoir humainement;
mmm merci c'est gentil, de toute évidence ce mec a un probleme (in english: Arab probably needs therapeutic help)
pour ce qui est de mon niveau, il ne me permettra sans doute pas de briller au Troca, je suis à la fois un sénior et un debutant.

Etienne de Bary
Etienne
Etienne
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:00 am
Contact:

Post by Etienne de Bary » Tue Apr 22, 2003 1:52 pm

On 2003-04-21 13:38, John Gilmour wrote:
So while it is easy to bust on the French for their Military-
This is a bit irritating i'm afraid, on what basis does one judge french task forces?

if you watch how it goes on in operation you will change your opinion, like on the cars matter if you watch operation theatres where both were engaged, like Yugoslavia, the impression is always that the US forces use more energy to overprotect themself than doing the job.

The "zero casualities" principle tends to multiply useless civilian casualities

Etienne de Bary
Etienne
Etienne
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:00 am
Contact:

Post by Etienne de Bary » Tue Apr 22, 2003 2:31 pm

After rereading the whole post, the "what else can we do ?" opinion seems to dominate.
i will repeat this: all arguments in favour of this operation will reveal dishonnest :
- Saddam was always the No1 "Satan" of muslim fondamentalists, his involvment in 9-11 is a strictly absurd idea,
they were friends like Hoover and Castro.
Most talibans still enjoy active complicity in Pakistan, a US friendly country.
- if Saddam owned terrifying wheapons, he certainly missed the occasion to use those, as the "surprise effect" was not used this time. If the US army attacked North Korea we would be really frightened, we were not, right ?
deep in our hearts we all knew it was a lie.
- iraki will not welcome the us army with open arms, at least for one simple reason: after the Desert Storm campain, while the job was done, the minorities that compose this population, which had been encouraged to revolt and did, were then repressed by Saddam forces under authority of the US occupying.
40 000 people were killed under those weird circumstances, to avoid complete redrawing of the map and a Yugo scenario.

Whatever pure the reasons to go to war, it corrupts the purest aims,
rightness don't matter, for it is bad in itself, only a serious considerable final benefit can justify it.
What do we get here: a typical israelo-palestinian situation, rather more complex though, where one has to choose between a tragedy or another, repressing or leaving chaos,
as the 30years war exemplify perfectly, a civil war can last rather to the extinction of the population.

John Gilmour
Team Roe Racing
Team Roe Racing
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am
Location: USA

Post by John Gilmour » Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:02 pm

New Look may be crap- but they featured new sports.

I know other people who have had similar experiences with their Renaults. Peugot made an absolutely amazing rally car that many people would like to own and many know about the Citroen's smooth suspension system. But Renault is an entirely different animal. I would own any German or American car over a Renault. To anyone who comes to Renault's defense I DARE anyone to buy a Renault second hand and try to maintain it for 10 years and drive the car out to 180,000 -200,000 miles. You will never be able to afford to buy slalom wheels again.

IMHO the worst cars for the environment are the ones that don't last. In this respect Hondas, Toyotas, Mercedes Benz Diesels, Volkswagon diesels are very responsible autos despite their emissions. California cars do last longer because the environment is not so corrosive to them- so in a strange way all California cars as more responsible environmentally just because they are in California. BTW California has extremely strict emissions standards- which I might add my car meets and exceeds- however my driving habits do not produce good mileage.

I would like to see a society without need for cars with grippy smooth sidewalks as fast as marble- but I doubt it will happen.

Adam Trahan
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Adam Trahan » Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:47 pm

Here is a couple of e-mails that may help some of you...

I did not write the information below, I simply enjoyed reading it.

----------

Who is Smarter?
By Cindy Osborne

The Hollywood group is at it again. Holding antiwar rallies, screaming about the Bush Administration, running ads in major newspapers, defaming the President and his Cabinet every chance they get, to anyone and everyone who will listen. They publicly defile them and call them names like "stupid," "morons," and "idiots." Jessica Lange went so far as to tell a crowd in Spain that she hates President Bush and is embarrassed to be an American.

So, just how ignorant are these people who are running the country? Let's look at the biographies of these "stupid," "ignorant," "moronic" leaders, and then at the celebrities who are castigating them:

President George W. Bush: Received a Bachelors Degree from Yale University and an MBA from Harvard Business School. He served as an F-102 pilot for the Texas Air National Guard. He began his career in the oil and gas business in Midland in 1975 and worked in the energy Industry until 1986. He was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote. In a historic reelection victory, he became the first Texas Governor to be elected to consecutive four-year terms on November 3, 1998, winning 68.6 percent of the vote. In 1998 Governor Bush won 49 percent of the Hispanic vote, 27 percent of the African-American vote, 27 percent of Democrats and 65 percent of women. He won more Texas counties, 240 of 254, than any modern Republican other that Richard Nixon in 1972 and is the first Republican gubernatorial candidate to win the heavily Hispanic and Democratic border counties of El Paso, Cameron and Hidalgo. (Someone began circulating a false story about his I.Q. being lower than any other President. If you believed it, you might want to go to URBANLEGENDS.COM and see the truth.)

Vice President Dick Cheney earned a B.A. in 1965 and a M.A. in 1966, both in political science. Two years later, he won an American Political Science Association congressional fellowship. One of Vice President Cheney's primary duties is to share with individuals, members of Congress and foreign leaders, President Bush's vision to strengthen our economy, secure our homeland and win the War on Terrorism. In his official role as President of the Senate, Vice President Cheney regularly goes to Capital Hill to meet with Senators and members of the House of representatives to work on the Administration's legislative goals. In his travels as Vice President, he has seen first hand the great demands the war on terrorism is placing on the men and women of our military, and he is proud of the tremendous job they are doing for the United States of America.

Secretary of State Colin Powell was educated in the New York City public schools, graduating from the City College of New York (CCNY), where he earned a Bachelor's Degree in geology. He also participated in ROTC at CCNY and received a commission as an Army second lieutenant upon graduation in June 1958. His further academic achievements include a Master of Business Administration Degree from George Washington University. Secretary Powell is the recipient of numerous U.S. and foreign military awards and decorations. Secretary Powell's civilian awards include two Presidential Medals of Freedom, the President's Citizens Medal, the Congressional Gold Medal, the Secretary of State Distinguished Service Medal, and the Secretary of Energy Distinguished Service Medal. Several schools and other institutions have been named in his honor and he holds honorary degrees from universities and colleges across the country.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld: attended Princeton University on Scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator; Congressional Assistant to Rep. Robert Griffin (R-MI), 1957-59; U.S. Representative, Illinois, 1962-69; Assistant to the President, Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, Director of the Cost of Living Council, 1969-74; U.S. Ambassador to NATO, 1973-74; head of Presidential Transition Team, 1974; Assistant to the President, Director of White House Office of Operations, White House Chief of Staff, 1974-77; Secretary of Defense, 1975-77

Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge was raised in a working class family in veterans' public housing in Erie. He earned a scholarship to Harvard, graduating with honors in 1967. After his first year at The Dickinson School of Law, he was drafted into the U.S. Army, where he served as an infantry staff sergeant in Vietnam, earning the Bronze Star for Valor. After returning to Pennsylvania, he earned his Law Degree and was in private practice before becoming Assistant District Attorney in Erie County. He was elected to Congress in 1982. He was the first enlisted Vietnam combat veteran elected to the U.S. House, and was overwhelmingly re-elected six times.

National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice earned her Bachelor's Degree in Political Science, Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her Master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981.

(Note: Rice enrolled at the University of Denver at the age of 15, graduating at 19 with a Bachelor's Degree in Political Science (Cum Laude). She earned a Master's Degree at the University of Notre Dame and a Doctorate from the University of Denver's Graduate School of International Studies. Both of her advanced degrees are also in Political Science.)

She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded Honorary Doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, and the University of Notre Dame in 1995. At Stanford, she has been a member of the Center for International Security and Arms Control, a Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution. Her books include Germany Unified and Europe Transformed (1995) with Philip Zelikow, The Gorbachev Era (1986) with Alexander
Dallin, and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army (1984). She also has written numerous articles on Soviet and East European foreign and defense policy, and has addressed audiences in settings ranging from the U.S. Ambassador's Residence in Moscow to the Commonwealth Club to the 1992 and 2000 Republican National Conventions. From 1989 through March 1991, the period of German reunification and the final days of the Soviet Union, she served in the Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. In 1986, while an international affairs fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, she served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In 1997,
she served on the Federal Advisory Committee on Gender -- Integrated Training in the Military. She was a member of the boards of directors for the Chevron Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the University of Notre Dame, the International Advisory Council of J.P. Morgan and the San Francisco Symphony Board of Governors. She was a Founding Board member of the Center for a New Generation, an educational support fund for schools in East Palo Alto and East Menlo Park, California and was Vice President of the Boys and Girls Club of the Peninsula. In addition, her past board service has encompassed such organizations as Transamerica Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Carnegie Corporation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The Rand Corporation, the National Council for Soviet and East European Studies, the Mid-Peninsula Urban Coalition and KQED, public broadcasting for San Francisco. Born November 14, 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, she earned her bachelor's degree in political science, cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her Master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981. She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded Honorary Doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, and the University of Notre Dame in 1995. She resides in Washington, DC. So who are these celebrities? What is their education? What is their experience in affairs of State or in National Security? While I will defend to the death their right to express their opinions, I think that if they are going to call into question the intelligence of our leaders, we should also have all the facts on their educations and background:

Barbara Streisand: Completed high school.
Career: Singing and acting

Cher: Dropped out of school in 9th grade.
Career: Singing and acting

Martin Sheen: Flunked exam to enter University of Dayton.
Career: Acting

Jessica Lange: Dropped out college mid-freshman year.
Career: Acting

Alec Baldwin: Dropped out of George Washington U after scandal.
Career: Acting

Julia Roberts: Completed high school.
Career: Acting

Sean Penn: Completed High school.
Career: Acting

Susan Sarandon: Degree in Drama from Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.
Career: Acting

Ed Asner: Completed High school
Career: Acting

George Clooney: Dropped out of University of Kentucky
Career: Acting

Michael Moore: Dropped out first year University of Michigan.
Career: Movie Director

Sarah Jessica Parker: Completed High School
Career: Acting

Jennifer Anniston: Completed High School.
Career: Acting

Mike Farrell: Completed High school
Career: Acting

Janeane Garofelo: Dropped out of College.
Career: Stand up comedienne

Larry Hagman: Attended Bard College for one year.
Career: Acting

While comparing the education and experience of these two groups, we should also remember that President Bush and his cabinet are briefed daily, even hourly, on the War on Terror and threats to our security. They are privy to information gathered around the world concerning the Middle East, the threats to America, the intentions of terrorists and terrorist-supporting governments. They are in constant communication with the CIA, the FBI, Interpol, NATO, The United Nations, our own military, and that of our allies around the world. We cannot simply believe that we have full knowledge of the threats because we watch CNN!! We cannot believe that we are in any way as informed as our leaders.

These celebrities have no intelligence-gathering agents, no fact-finding groups, no insight into the minds of those who would destroy our country. They only have a deep seated hatred for all things Republican. By nature, and no one knows quite why, the Hollywood elitists detest Conservative views and anything that supports or uplifts the United States of America. The silence was deafening from the Left when Bill Clinton bombed a pharmaceutical factory outside of Khartoum, or when he attacked the Bosnian Serbs in 1995 and 1999. He bombed Serbia itself to get Slobodan Milosevic out of Kosovo, and not a single peace rally was held. When our Rangers were ambushed in Somalia and 18 young American lives were lost, not a peep was heard from Hollywood. Yet now, after our nation has been attacked on its own soil, after 3,000 Americans were killed by freedom-hating terrorists while going about their routine lives, they want to hold rallies against the war. Why the change? Because an honest, God-fearing Republican sits in the White House.

Another irony is that in 1987, when Ronald Reagan was in office, the Hollywood group aligned themselves with disarmament groups like SANE, FREEZE and PEACE ACTION, urging our own government to disarm and freeze the manufacturing of any further nuclear weapons, in order to promote world peace. It is curious that now, even after we have heard all the evidence that Saddam Hussein has chemical, biological and is very close to obtaining nuclear weapons, their is no cry from this group for HIM to disarm. They believe we should leave him alone in his quest for these weapons of mass destruction, even though it is certain that these deadly weapons will eventually be used against us in our own cities.

So why the hype out of Hollywood? Could these celebrities believe that since they draw such astronomical salaries, they are entitled to also determine the course of our Nation? That they can make viable decisions concerning war and peace? Did Michael Moore have the backing of the Nation when he recently thanked France, on our behalf, for being a "good enough friend to tell us we were wrong"? I know for certain he was not speaking for me. Does Sean Penn fancy himself a Diplomat, in going to Iraq when we are just weeks away from war? Does he believe that his High School Diploma gives him the knowledge (and the right) to go to a country that is controlled by a maniacal dictator, and speak on behalf of the American people? Or is it the fact that he pulls in more money per year than the average American worker will see in a lifetime?

Does his bank account give him clout?

The ultimate irony is that many of these celebrities have made a shambles of their own lives, with drug abuse, alcoholism, numerous marriages and divorces, scrapes with the law, publicized temper tantrums, etc. How dare they pretend to know what is best for an entire nation! What is even more bizarre is how many people in this country will listen and accept their views, simply because they liked them in a certain movie, or have fond memories of an old television sitcom!

It is time for us, as citizens of the United States, to educate ourselves about the world around us. If future generations are going to enjoy the freedoms that our forefathers bequeathed us, if they are ever to know peace in their own country and their world, to live without fear of terrorism striking in their own cities, we must assure that this nation remains strong. We must make certain that those who would destroy us are made aware of the severe consequences that will befall them.

Yes, it is a wonderful dream to sit down with dictators and terrorists and join hands, singing Kumbaya and talking of world peace. But it is not real. We did not stop Adolf Hitler from taking over the entire continent of Europe by simply talking to him. We sent our best and brightest, with the strength and determination that this Country is known for, and defeated the Nazi regime. President John F. Kennedy did not stop the Soviet ships from unloading their nuclear missiles in Cuba in 1962 with mere words. He stopped them with action, and threat of immediate war if the ships did not turn around. We did not end the Cold War with conferences. It ended with the strong belief of President Ronald Reagan...

PEACE through STRENGTH.

----------

This sort of goes with the previous email that was bashing the current-day
Hollywood crowd...this one might actually be another explanation, besides a lack of education...

----------

Compare Entertainers of 1943 with today's.

A Letter to the Editor,

The Entertainers of 2003 have been in all of the news media lately. it seems News Paper, Television and Radio has been more than ready to put them and their message before the public. I would like to remind the people of what the entertainers of 1943 were doing, (60 years ago). Most of these brave men have since passed on.

Alec Guinness (Star Wars) operated a British Royal Navy landing craft on D-Day.

James Doohan ("Scotty" on Star Trek) landed in Normandy with the U.S. Army on D-Day.

Donald Pleasance (The Great Escape) really was a R.A.F. pilot who was shot down, held prisoner and tortured by the Germans.

David Niven was a Sandhurst graduate and Lt. Colonel of the British Commandos in Normandy.

James Stewart flew 20 missions as a B-24 pilot in Europe.

Clark Gable (Mega-Movie Star when war broke out) was a waist gunner flying missions on a B-17 in Europe.

Charlton Heston was an Army Air Corps Sergeant in Kodiak.

Earnest Borgnine was a U.S. Navy Gunners Mate 1935-1945.

Charles Durning was a U.S. Army Ranger at Normandy.

Charles Bronson was a tail gunner in the Army Air Corps.

George C. Scott was a U.S. Marine.

Eddie Albert (Green Acres TV) was awarded a Bronze Star for his heroic action as a U.S. Naval officer aiding Marines at the horrific battle on the island of Tarawa in the Pacific Nov.1943.

Brian Keith served as a Marine rear gunner in several actions against the Japanese on Rabal in the Pacific.

Lee Marvin was a marine on Saipan when he was wounded.

John Russell was a Marine on Guadalcanal.

Robert Ryan was a U.S. Marine who served with the O.S.S. in Yugoslavia.

Tyrone Power (an established movie star when Pearl Harbor was bombed) joined the Marines, was a pilot flying supplies into, and wounded Marines out of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

Audie Murphy , little guy from Texas, Most Decorated serviceman of WWII.

I wish I had room to tell you more about Actor Sterling Hayden and an actor by the name of Peter J. Ortiz (Twelve O'clock High, Rio Grande and The Wings of Eagles), but this would turn into a book.

There is quite a huge gap between the heroics and patriotism in 1943 and the cowardly despicable posturing of the Hollywood crowd of today...all of which smack of sedition and treason. Think about this every time you are tempted to go to the movies or go to a concert!!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Adam Trahan on 2003-04-23 13:45 ]</font>

Adam Trahan
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Adam Trahan » Wed Apr 23, 2003 6:39 pm

Although I do not agree with French foreign policy on Iraq, they are an independant nation and are quite capable of making their own choices.

I think many Americans forget that we would not be America if it were not for the French Navy in the time of our seperation from Brittan. France aided American Patriots to make "America" back when we were forming our nation.

History is interesting, we all have skeletons in our closets, America included.

Enough said.

Wesley Tucker
1961-2013 (RIP)
1961-2013 (RIP)
Posts: 3279
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Apr 25, 2003 5:51 am

Well, now that the shooting has stopped, I want to know just ONE THING:

Why didn't those human shields guard that museum? Hmmmmmmmm?

Post Reply